KaiB

I have strong convictions about a lot of this Hal - and of course opinions vary, but...I've been there with PSS10s in Claudia V1.1 and then later with the "somewhat" more highly developed V2.1 we have now.

These are 20 y.o. cars and the stock suspensions are all ready for a bit of love. Should you car have had this love, and should it be set up reasonably well - it should be pretty capable on track. Should you be ready as a driver to further develop the car - by this I mean can you go quicker consistently with a bit more car "beneath" you - then by all means let's talk about the next step.

Or....if your car is merely ready for suspension work and you'd like to "upgrade" to something a bit more capable, then the next step also makes sense. All of this has been discussed here forever.

The PSS10 kit is more than capable of allowing our cars to hang with GT3s at a DE event (driver willing) - and the MCS gear I have now is virtually top of the line for our cars. I honestly believe that a MCS suspension with 4 and 600# springs would be the snizzle for dual purpose use - if a guy wanted to pay the $2500 premium over the Bilsteins.

All are good - perhaps better than most drivers using them - and this is the real answer to your question...how do we set them up?

Until the driver is capable of driving consistent laps at reasonable speed with whatever the car is sitting on - and understanding what the car is doing beneath him - virtually any reasonable setting for these adjustables is good enough. At some point then the driver begins to say "those certain words" (as Weiner would have it) and the adjustment process can begin.

We could install 10 equivalent suspensions in 10 equivalent cars and 10 drivers will say differing things regarding how their cars are handling. That's the sad truth.

Examine your desires and your skills along with your pocket book as there is no one answer to your question.

HalV

Sorry, Kai, I wasn't trying to get into a what suspension is best, but what to look for in suspension setup. What do you do if you think the car is over/under steering too much. How to adjust your coil-overs if their are a lot of breaking bumps before a turn, When do I need a larger sway bar in front/rear? If this isn't the appropriate place for these questions, let me know.

RSAErick

These are the words that my father preached from the time that I was a young boy in the back seat of our BMW 2002, and through my street driving training. GREAT advice!

All downshifts should involve proper rev-matching. Every street corner, regardless of speed, is an opportunity to practice turn-in, apex, and exit strategy. And moving vision up and out, while using peripheral vision to handle the close stuff, is ideal. I believe that ALL of these practices lead to better driving on street and track.

KaiB

Sorry Hal, I knew what you were looking for, but didn't want to open the proverbial box. I'll answer in a generic but honest way - with many of the comments driven by private conversations I've had with my Guru and keeper of all things good as far as making a chassis fast.

Here are the answers you really don't want:

Do we think the car is under/oversteernig too much? Could we go faster everywhere on the track if we make an adjustment to the car or could I "drive around" this issue in certain places while maintaining speed elsewhere? Is my understeer occuring at turn-in or mid-corner as I lay in throttle; is my oversteer causing me to worry after the apex and thus delaying throttle application? In other words, do I actually have a problem I can't drive through to go faster, where is the problem exactly and is it not a function of driver input.

What works for you won't work for me. My car, for instance, is rather "loose" and actually very nervous at the edge - I need it to be that way and it is very fast when nervous - you might hate that.

How do you adjust your coilovers if there are unsettling bumps before a turn? Same story, sadly. Is it just this turn? Could we get faster lap times by adjusting for just this turn, or do we relax during braking and let the car dance a bit. Could we use this "unsettling" to aid turn in at this one corner. (typically, we can dial a bit of compression out of the dampers to help resolve this issue, but then we trade off elsewhere).

My home track is bumpy - one day I dialed out about 25% of my compression and rebound equally and went out for a test. The car was SUBLIME - I felt FAST and really in control. Got in with a big smile on my face and looked at the data. Averaged about 1.75 seconds SLOWER than my typical fast laps prior to the adjustment.

I don't dare open the sway bar box as the answers are the same as above. For what it's worth, I kept the big HR bars in my car during the race build; both are set on their outer holes and I've never ever wanted to adjust them. Next week, after having consulted with Weiner, I will tighten both front and rear to the inner holes as an experiment - the thought being I'd like just a bit more car beneath me without resorting to larger springs - another devilish topic.

Cheers, and sorry - it really is all on the driver, his experience, his techniques and his ability to determine what the car is doing, where it is doing it and what he wants it to do.

race911

What I'll add to move the conversation in A direction is echo where the above "setup" conversation is going--95+% of these cars are set up wrong, and the driver is merely trying to compensate for some ill when he's out there. I sure know all three of my 964s were pretty much that way; but I knew it, and it was all budget limited. You can still enjoy the car. Might be a bit confusing for a beginner, though. So, it's all about consulting with a pro who knows these chassis.

(And I'll respectfully disagree with Kai on a 964 with a PSS10 kit installed elevating you to GT3 DE pace. Yeah, there's the pony trot crew who hold me up in the Spec Miata. And then there are the cars driven halfway decent where it really takes everything I've got + good tires in the faux 993RS to stay ahead of one. And that's a car that's had $70K worth of stuff + labor thrown at it by the previous owner.)

race911

Somewhere between "Pony Trot" and "Flat Out"........ (In other words ~3-4 seconds off pace.)

997.1 GT3 on slicks, regeared:


997 GT3RS stock w/ driver's first time with it on track (he had a '74 Carrera he drove 300K miles, then didn't own a 911 for over 20 years! His kid was riding with me):

August West

Classic heel-toe video of the late great Ayrton Senna in an NSX with three-way video shots of the Tach/Speedometer, of his heel-toe footwork, and of the course as viewed through the front window screen. I still watch this video over and over in order to absorb as much as I can.

The footwork is astonishing especially since he's in his loafers!

KaiB

Never tire of that one. Interesting to watch him probing the grip and the car's limits with the throttle - and using the brake mid-corner (around 2mins) to set the chassis back up.

KaiB

The video above brings up a topic: Heel and toe work.

This is one of the rudimentary skills which MUST be learned and honed to perfection - as the driver cannot improve until this becomes second nature and each and every downshift can be accomplished without upsetting the car's attitude or altering brake pressure.

Like vision, this skill is one which can be easily practiced (should be, must be) each and every time we're in our cars. It should become easy regardless of footgear; the accomplished driver can do it in work boots, slippers, loafers, flipflops and high heels (don't ask) - in every vehicle he gets into - he'll find a way to get it done because it MUST be done.

Let's all get to work and dial in this most basic skill until it's just right under all conditions. Those of us who have it down can work on timing - later is better, of course, but then that involves downshifting towards the end of the braking zone as things get touchy...so get that shift right just as the brake release phase begins.

Cheers, K

Babalouie

I heel n'toe all the time. Double-clutch down into 2nd and 1st too Makes it all super-smooth.

I agree that it's pretty important to on the limit driving. If we say that it's super important as to how gradually we come off the brake and transition onto the gas, then throwing in a jerky clutch uptake in there is going to undo all your good work

tahoelife

Hello Kai and all that are contributing I am super excited about this thread. In regards to above mentioned suspension setups my 964 last season was one of the 95% setup wrong and I was constantly just trying not to dye. I was turning ok lap times but not where I knew I could be if I could actually trust the car. I went the kw club sport route instead of the pss10's based on budget and re-sprung them to 600f-800r and the best thing i did was actually go down in wheel/tire combo allowing the car to be aligned properly (Eric at Pacific Power Motorsports) which transformed the car. We just had our season opener last week and I was able to drop 5 seconds off last years best attempt. I know I need more seat time but initial impression is I am getting a lot of mid corner under-steer in the mid speed corners where i get back on the gas to hard.. I would say I agree with Ken as the only way my car even in it's new state could run with the gt3's is if the driver in that car was not at the limit and i am. here is my new PB chasing a 2011 gt3rs which I do reel in eventually due to traffic.

race911

^^^ Nice looking lap! Amazing feeling in that five seconds you've knocked off, right? You're right where I was 10+ years ago with the stock class RSA (stock to the point it still had the catalytic converter on it), but I did run it at the 2760 (w/o driver in those days) min. class weight. Now, getting that last 1-1.5-2 seconds becomes the pursuit.............

What tires?

tahoelife

Thanks Ken and yes I know there is a lot of room left for improvement with the driver I am thrilled though that i was able to put that together first time back in car with essentially all new setup. The condition were a bit tricky as well as it rained on and off throughout the weekend. I know I need to work on the first topic in this thread trail braking better but if I had tried to trail brake deeper last year it would snap over-steer so I am having to unlearn bad habits actually have video of it doing that to my coach at buttonwillow it was after that he insisted i "fix" the car turns out he was right . My question in this thread is there are two major spots on the thunderhill track where my gearing is to tall and i really should probably be going down into 2nd gear (5,14). I have tried it both ways and I am sure i need to work on the down shift and re up shift but I am at the moment .5 second lap faster just leaving it in third and trying to just be smoother through the corner allowing momentum to do the job??

KaiB

[QUOTE=tahoelife;10374656]We just had our season opener last week and I was able to drop 5 seconds off last years best attempt. I know I need more seat time but initial impression is I am getting a lot of mid corner under-steer in the mid speed corners where i get back on the gas to hard.. QUOTE]

Congratulations and nice lap...certainly for the first of the season on top of a new setup.

Your next two seconds are FREE - you may buy be a beer later!!!

I believe 90% of your understeer is driver enabled. If you take a look again and again, I believe you'll see that a bit of early apex is causing you to run out of track at exit. Remember that all of us, even at Club Race level, tend to "cheat" to the inside as speed or aprehension go up.

This causes either a narrower line than we want or an early apex - the end result is the same, loss of track. Loose track, loose throttle application, loose that and we loose an awful lot of time.

I'd like to see you force yourself to hang in there at entry, stay over where you need to be, and trust that turn-in will occur (it will, we don't need to wiggle over). Work to the new (actually the old) apex and get onto the throttle - this time without worry that you'll run out of track and you'll have room to unwind the car.

Next year, as speeds go up and entry speed gets higher and higher, we can work on bringing that apex in a bit closer.

Cheers, and have fun - well done! KB

KaiB

Let's work on the above first.

Ken knows this track but here is my opinion. In corners where a higher gear could be used, I like to probe that gear until all options are off the table. This allows us to concentrate on other things; braking, line,corner entry/speed and vision - all without introducint another thing which could upset the car. This also allows us to get onto the throttle, sometimes flat down, without aggressive throttle response, again helping to keep the car calm.

Once we've got all of that down, one of two things can then occur. Either we're faster through that spot and the gearing is now right (see Ken's video above, and he was actually not up to speed due to the water pumper), or we become good enough at the basics that we can now go faster with a downshift and more engine beneath us.

This is fun, huh???