The (Semi-Official) 964 Driving Tips Thread
04-12-2013, 08:11 AM
#61
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Deep Downtown Carrier, OK
Posts: 5,297
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
[QUOTE=race911;10379534]#1 above was a promotional video shot for intended effect....and illustrates superb driving skill; look at the attitude of the front wheels, the driver was in absolute control of the car.
#2 above looks like the curb upset things. Can't blame the car. EZ save in the dry? Maybe. Probably isn't even a save. Bingo. May have been a puddle also. The dry line differs from the wet line for a raft of reasons.
#3 above was certainly not snap oversteer. 100% on the driver there. Everything gets loosy coming off of Laguna T2, all about tire management. Yep, the driver told the car to go away. Listen carefully, hard off the throttle mid-corner and then way too hard onto it.[/QUOTE]
#2 above looks like the curb upset things. Can't blame the car. EZ save in the dry? Maybe. Probably isn't even a save. Bingo. May have been a puddle also. The dry line differs from the wet line for a raft of reasons.
#3 above was certainly not snap oversteer. 100% on the driver there. Everything gets loosy coming off of Laguna T2, all about tire management. Yep, the driver told the car to go away. Listen carefully, hard off the throttle mid-corner and then way too hard onto it.[/QUOTE]
04-12-2013, 08:39 AM
#62
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Deep Downtown Carrier, OK
Posts: 5,297
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
I'm not good driver and do spin and make mistakes. I've been at Skip barber 3days school and couple of PCA's. Instructor told me both pedals down - works for me.
From what you guys saying you are probably at the level when you never spin and have 100% control of your car all the the time.
My guess all cars in videos have ok suspension setup
and still all of them do snap rear forward.
Thanks! I will check my suspension setup.
Oleg.
From what you guys saying you are probably at the level when you never spin and have 100% control of your car all the the time.
My guess all cars in videos have ok suspension setup
and still all of them do snap rear forward.Thanks! I will check my suspension setup.
Oleg.
This thread was started in hopes that all of us could come together in a "happy, relaxed" place and work on driving skill. Let's take a look at a few of the basic things which will cause our cars to be unhappy - unhappy 964 usually means the rear will want to step out. These are things I see time and time again:
1) Driver hits all of his marks, brakes wonderfully, turns in, hits apex on the spot, rolls in to the throttle - and then decides he's too fast. Comes OFF of the throttle. What happens then and why?
2) Driver brakes nicely and turns in to an early apex. What heppens then and why?
3) Driver its all of his marks, brakes wonderfully, turns in, rolls into the throttle, yet is slow to unwind. What happens then and why?
Because I'm the kind and all-knowing master of this thread I'll ask that anybody who has ever held an Instructor or Race license not answer the above for a while...lets let the thread develop before we somewhat more "advanced" guys come back in.
04-12-2013, 09:01 AM
#63
Rennlist Member
#2 above looks like the curb upset things. Can't blame the car. EZ save in the dry? Maybe. Probably isn't even a save. Bingo. May have been a puddle also. The dry line differs from the wet line for a raft of reasons.
Eau rouge at Spa in the wet and what you shouldn't do
Eau rouge at Spa in the wet and what you shouldn't do
- Get on the left hand side curbs
- Coming onto Eau Rouge, it's steep and your steering wheel needs to be straight when you hit the crest as the car is unloaded
- So you end up with an unloaded car on a wet curb with the steering wheel pointing left.
04-12-2013, 09:25 AM
#64
Nordschleife Master
#2 above looks like the curb upset things. Can't blame the car. EZ save in the dry? Maybe. Probably isn't even a save. Bingo. May have been a puddle also. The dry line differs from the wet line for a raft of reasons.
Eau rouge at Spa in the wet and what you shouldn't do
Eau rouge at Spa in the wet and what you shouldn't do
- Get on the left hand side curbs
- Coming onto Eau Rouge, it's steep and your steering wheel needs to be straight when you hit the crest as the car is unloaded
- So you end up with an unloaded car on a wet curb with the steering wheel pointing left.
04-12-2013, 09:51 AM
#65
Problem is, rain/wet surfaces are variable. Depends where you are on the learning curve, and your tolerance for risk. As you said, the track is usually really lightly populated, so it's a great opportunity to pick and choose where you want to take the risk. In other words, maybe NOT on the flat-in-4th sweeper.........
Where I see it not really paying off is in the non-repetitive part. Say on track for Turn X it's "brake at 3, downshift, turn in at 1, roll off the brake, settle on throttle at/near apex, back on gas, unwind wheel to track out." Now it's wet. But how wet? Are you still going into Turn X at 110? Maybe only 75 is prudent. Brake point might be inside the 2 now, with zero use of trailing brake. Apex is wet/slick, so you do a rim shot around the outside, all the while using maintenance throttle? Then the next lap you notice a dry line forming. Back on the apex? Wrong call, and it might mean you meeting a wall.
I thoroughly enjoying driving my '68 on dirt, way back when. Oddly, I only damaged the front taking a header into a hillside.
Where I see it not really paying off is in the non-repetitive part. Say on track for Turn X it's "brake at 3, downshift, turn in at 1, roll off the brake, settle on throttle at/near apex, back on gas, unwind wheel to track out." Now it's wet. But how wet? Are you still going into Turn X at 110? Maybe only 75 is prudent. Brake point might be inside the 2 now, with zero use of trailing brake. Apex is wet/slick, so you do a rim shot around the outside, all the while using maintenance throttle? Then the next lap you notice a dry line forming. Back on the apex? Wrong call, and it might mean you meeting a wall.
I thoroughly enjoying driving my '68 on dirt, way back when. Oddly, I only damaged the front taking a header into a hillside.
04-12-2013, 10:02 AM
#66
Since I'm currently reading the Skip Barber "Going Faster!" book, I'll try. 
Weight transfers off the rear end so the back end comes around?
Turn keeps getting tighter and you run out of room on the outside or you try to turn too tightly and bring the rear end around?
Tires run out of traction since you're using too much turning and acceleration at the same time. Depending on setup, car either pushes or oversteers?
Tires run out of traction since you're using too much turning and acceleration at the same time. Depending on setup, car either pushes or oversteers?
04-12-2013, 12:08 PM
#67
Burning Brakes
Past couple of comments bring me back to my original post--that most of these (hell, ANY) cars are set up wrong. We're great at learning and compensating. But they're still bad. And I'll raise my hand first to say I've spent a lifetime (going on 34 years now with 911s, nearly all competing or track driving in some way) with POS, ill handling, completely compromised hardware. But I wasn't exactly well funded until about 12-13 years ago, and then like many of us life got in the way more recently when we thought we'd be on EZ street.
Doesn't mean in the least that you can't learn to drive what you've got, and probe the limits of that car. Just understand that you may have a "one of" car that a well-seasoned, used-to-an-unlimited-budget coach may pretty much laugh at...
Doesn't mean in the least that you can't learn to drive what you've got, and probe the limits of that car. Just understand that you may have a "one of" car that a well-seasoned, used-to-an-unlimited-budget coach may pretty much laugh at...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106074
04-12-2013, 01:11 PM
#69
Rennlist Member
Good point. Although, fans of F1 racing are comstantly reminded that an unlimited budget is no guarantee of a well-behaving car:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106074
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106074
04-12-2013, 01:16 PM
#70
Rennlist Member
RE: #1 scenario above. IF the driver hits all his marks, s/he's not going to have to make that post apex throttle correction for being "too fast", ABSENT a change in track conditions (wreck in front of you, surface condition changes--wet/oil/debris/stray animal/etc.).
Overall, I get what you're saying. I feel that when you're at the point you've "hit your marks" at limit, driving (as opposed to racing) kind of becomes rote. Unless you're screwing around with testing/setup. Which I think is beyond the scope of what we want to bring into this discussion.
Overall, I get what you're saying. I feel that when you're at the point you've "hit your marks" at limit, driving (as opposed to racing) kind of becomes rote. Unless you're screwing around with testing/setup. Which I think is beyond the scope of what we want to bring into this discussion.
04-12-2013, 01:20 PM
#72
Rennlist Member
These are all great points. I hadn't really thought of the repeatability point until you brought it up. In fact, I don't even know what lap times I run, other than my instructor said I was good enough to be in the intermediate run group. In that group I pass about as many of cars that pass me. I need to get some timing/data logging equipment...
As I mentioned above, Rumblestrip is a great driving aid.
04-12-2013, 01:23 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
This is a good point for this particular thread. I have instructed for several years and have driven full race prepared cars. I owned a semi track dedicated 78 SC. I have more fun in my Street/Track 964 then I did in dedicated track cars. I am at the limit with my 964 and that is OK.
I tossed my track timer on the shelf several years ago. I look at track days as a social event. Everyone has different objectives.
I tossed my track timer on the shelf several years ago. I look at track days as a social event. Everyone has different objectives.
Where's that "progression of track junkie" comic?
