all i know is mine peaked at 247 RWHP on a dynojet 248 something or other. other measurements on the same dyno put stock boxster s's at 220 and a 993 at 250. these numbers seem to be in line with similiar measurements made on other dynojets. now i don't know what the losses are...Tom W is using 12 percent. i thought they were around 18 percent but just from hearsay. at 18 percent 247 is around 290 i think (too lazy to compute it)

my car has headers and a cone intake and Steve W remapped the eprom. these numbers were with 91 octane fuel on a cool winter day...uncorrected

i bet if you dynoed a stock 964 in good shape it would be considerably stronger than the claimed 247 FWHP

 

But did you have before and after dyno runs?

This is repeating something that has been debated to death a million times before - but it's the only way to prove the gain. The fact that the same dyno measured other cars at xxx bhp doesn't mean much. It's what your car measured before the chip and what it measured after the chip. If there is a 40-50BHP gain under those conditions, then I would be convinced.

 

Two things to clarify:

My dyno was 244 at the rear wheels and you can use whatever conversion you want, but it still means that it was at least the 275 that was inquired about. I thought6 Adrian's book suggested 12% for a C2. At 18%, 245 means 298 hp. I don't believe that based on performance of the old engine and the new engine. I would believe it was 275, but that's simply my opinion, not hard data.

My MoTeC conversion was NOT a MoTeC only change. It was a whole new engine with stock pistons and compression, but stronger rods, bolts and valve springs (non-power enhancing parts) and headers with minimal mufflers (Phase 9). It was simply tuned to give the best possible output given the race class restrictions. MoTeC was used because the engine builder (Jerry Woods) was set up do do MoTec and it's their standard. They don't do Motronic, although a specialist that tunes the Motronic should be able to get the same performance. They have built 5 or 6 other engine just like mine recently and all produce about 300 hp at the flywheel on their engine dyno.

MoTeC is an expensive way to go to get 300 hp and one has to consider the cost benefit if you can get to 275ish for <10% of the price. In my case MoTeC has other benefits that justify the price and will be realized (it is a dedicated race/track car).

 

well, if you want to believe you have 300hp you can.
chips claim 25hp
exhaust claims 15hp
K&N cone filter with a 90deg pipe claims 8hp
cat bypass claims 10hp

so there you go, you have over 300hp when added to the stock 250

to be honest, after the above mods feels like a new car, SO much quiker and smoother. i will challenge anyone here who says the above mods dont make a difference. come drive my car

all the above cost me less than 500$. totally worth it, my car (45k miles) is much quicker than my body's 96 stock 993 with 50k miles.

now the next step would be a MAF , many people over the years have used them with proven success.
good lu

 

Errrr...yeah.....

I think that we have to be realistic here, my car is comfortably quicker than a 993 and I am also quicker than a 996 3.6 - but I wouldn't say I was *much* quicker than any of these cars - its not as if I can leave a 993 or a 964 for dead...the performance is very relative. Your cabriolet is also heavier than my car so when you say 'much quicker' - I guess that might be your intrepretation?

My experience is that 20fwhp doesn't make much difference on the road - you might see a slight difference in laptimes but its not as if the difference is mindblowing.

My car doesn't really feel fast anymore, it was only when I started spinning my wheels in 3rd gear in the wet recently that I am reminded of the increase in power. And I run 265/35on 10 inch rears.

I think the 420hp route with 9M might be a 'maybe' in the next few years....why buy a996 Turbo when you can have the same power and 200kgs less weight

 

well, i didnt mean with "much quicker" what you understood. you are right, its not huge HP that will leave the others behind, but the improvement is noticibable and worth it.
SO, you can spin your tires at 3rd!!! i couldnt do it with very light 17s in the rear!! whats your mods?

 

"But did you have before and after dyno runs?

This is repeating something that has been debated to death a million times before - but it's the only way to prove the gain. The fact that the same dyno measured other cars at xxx bhp doesn't mean much. It's what your car measured before the chip and what it measured after the chip. If there is a 40-50BHP gain under those conditions, then I would be convinced"

a couple things

i don't know what the mods produced...and as i said i think a proper running stock 964 puts out significantly more than the 247 FWHP

247 measured RWHP compared to several boxster s's with a claimed 250 FWHP putting down 220 RWHP on the same dyno suggests that the 964 is in fact putting down somewhere in the vicinity of 285 FWHP....the original question

 

It has been to 9M and the mods are extensive. 3.8 Cup pistons, Motec, 310degree cams, carillo rods, titanium valvetrain, ported heads, larger injectors, LWF, LSD and some other 9M internal trickery. FWIW, the 3.8 pistons didn't make much that much difference to power but it updated my old gasketless p&c design I had so no headleaks for me. I also run catbypass and cup pipe. I think the best dyno run was 315rwhp. It did cost a bit more than 500usd though.......

 

I would assume that the original question was based on assuming that the car put out 250hp to start with. They may or may not - but this is the quoted figure.

My point is that claims that any mod - chip, motec, MAF, or even all the stuff Christer had done - is meaningless without before dyno runs because without them, you can't possibly tell what difference the mod made.

However - I will agree that RWHP is a more reliable measure than FWHP.

 

Well...
since we are having the same conversation this week that we had last week, and since its degrading into the same argument, maybe I can get some useful info by reasking the same questions:

"I would like to know more about what is done when converting to the Motec system."

-Which porsche sensors are used, and which ones are changed?
-Do you change the injectors or use the old ones? Which injector model?
-Does the fuel pressure remain the same? Do you add pulse dampers?
-Lambda used? Yes/No
-Is someone making an adapter kit from our wiring harness to the motec system? Or do you have to do it all from scratch?
-Is the DME kept or completely removed from the car? Are people using the motec to drive the ignition as well or only fuel injection.
-Is a dyno really required to set it up properly, or could you do it through the motec software alone? (For many of us there isnt a 4 wheel dyno within a thousand miles)
-How much does it cost for a motec setup?
-Who sells it?
-Is the M48 Pro the popular one to use?
-If changing to a MAF at the same time, whose MAF is used?
-What other motec modules are typically used with porsches? Anybody using the traction control module for speed references? Which in car display is used, if any?

Feel free to answer/extrapolate/explain and generally write up 'enginemanagementsystem101' in reponse.

For something that is talked about so much, almost no information is ever conveyed about the details of it.

Here are some links I found:

http://www.porsche964.co.uk/rev_rep/gt/GT_Horse%20Playeb.pdf#search='motec%20porsche'

http://www.motec.com/

http://www.928sg.com/motec.htm

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/sale..._-_8_cylinders





Kirk

 

Whoa.

But I have to admit I've wondered a lot of this as well. If you get a pm or something Kirk, please share.

 

All Porsche sensors are used except for the throttle position sensor which needs to be changed.

I'd recommend changing to a larger Bosch injector if you expect more than 300hp

Fuel pressure remains at 3.8bar and the entire stock fuel system is utilized. You can of course run any fuel pressure you want.

Wide band Lambda is an option

9M has an adapter harness to go from the 55pin Motronics connector to the 36pin MoTeC connector. One or two small wires will need to be added. Or you can have a milspec wire harness made specifically for your car.

DME is completely removed and the MoTeC controls fuel and ignition timing.

A dyno is required for proper setup.

M48 and M600 are the two options, list price is $2,162 and $3,393 respectively. Unless you are doing significant input/output functions, M48 is sufficient.

MoTeC will control a MAF sensor so it is an option, but not generally used. AFM is discarded and throttle position and/or MAP is used.

I am using an M800 to do launch/traction control, pit speed limiting and a host of other options on my car. With a M48 you can get the traction control multiplexor and do traction control using outputs from the ABS Brain. I am also using a MoTeC ADL display dash logger.

 

KirkF:

A couple that I can answer in my case:
It's $5-6k (or more), depending on what you have done (and my engine was already out).
Some sensors are used, some must be added - I don't recall the specifics.
Yes a dyno must be used, but you don't need a 4-wheel dyno. You can take the engine out and do it all on an engine dyno. In my case they did the complete engine break-in on the dyno so I could go out and race right away.
There is no "adapter" harness. You throw away the existing one an make a new one from scratch.
You throw away the old ECU (or sell it).
An M48 works fine, but the latest and greatest (and more money) is the M800.
I currently use all the normal Porsche guages. Adding MoTeC data acquisition and a MoTeC dash is a lot more money. You are only replacing the ECU in the "simple" conversion.

[Edit] Geoffery beat me to it. You'll note he quotes cost of the MoTeC unit, but a normal smuck like me has neither the time nor capabilities to do what's required. The number I quote is the cost of the unit, and all the labor to install it to have a car that runs well in the end.

 

I can only speak for the Motec conversion that we do, but since this debate seems to always centre around our information I think that it will answer most questions adequately:

-Which porsche sensors are used, and which ones are changed?

The standard AFM and the idle/WOT contact swiches are removed.
A MAP sensor, AT sensor and TPS (potentiometer) are added.

-Do you change the injectors or use the old ones? Which injector model?

Injectors are replaced, not telling which one I use (but not hard to guess).

-Does the fuel pressure remain the same? Do you add pulse dampers?

Totally stock fuel rails & pressure regulator are retained.

-Lambda used? Yes/No

Narrow band Lambda control can be used but we do not use it, thus in the usual applications the conversion is not compatible with a cat.
Wide band Lambda control & datalogging are Motec options, but these will add significantly to the costs.

-Is someone making an adapter kit from our wiring harness to the motec system? Or do you have to do it all from scratch?

We make a plug-and-play adapter for our conversions.

-Is the DME kept or completely removed from the car? Are people using the motec to drive the ignition as well or only fuel injection?

The Motronic DME is removed, hence the Motec system has total control over all engine functions, ie ignition timing, injector pulse & timing, idle valve, resonance flap.

-Is a dyno really required to set it up properly, or could you do it through the motec software alone? (For many of us there isnt a 4 wheel dyno within a thousand miles)

We have got to the stage where, on UK Optimax 98octane (r+m/2) fuel, we can get within 1% of optimum with our start map. However every engine has slight variations so we always take time out to drive the car on the road with a wide band lambda meter installed (Motec PLM) and fine tune the fuel/ignition at part throttle and cruise - which is near impossible to set on a dyno in any case.

A recent customer with a 964C4 had the conversion done without dyno testing (ours is only a 2wd system) but he was still delighted with the results.


-How much does it cost for a motec setup? -Who sells it?

Our fitted/mapped/tuned basic Motec package is £3500 excluding taxes.

-Is the M48 Pro the popular one to use?

We use the M48. The M600 is a better ecu with greater functionality, but in 99% of cases you will not use the additional features. I currently use the M48 Pro on my 400+bhp 993RS race engine.

-If changing to a MAF at the same time, whose MAF is used?

the 9m Motec package does not use MAF, it uses Alpha-N (throttle angle vs RPM) strategy for fuel and ignition tables with MAP correction.

-What other motec modules are typically used with porsches?

The usual upgrades from a standard M48 are wide band lambda and datalogging, since the primary reason for logging the ecu is to monitor the fuel mixture across the full fuel map, but usually the wide band lambda control is not enabled.

- Anybody using the traction control module for speed references?

I use the 993RS ABS ecu wheel speed outputs through a Motec TCM (teaction Control Multiplexer) for launch and traction control. The TC system is pretty good, but it needs a lot of setting up to get the best from it.

- Which in car display is used, if any?

Not fitted as standard due to the cost (Motec displays start at £1500) but we are looking at a Motec MDD steering wheel display package for a customer with a 600+bhp 965 on a Motec M600.


That enough?

 

So is there anyway to have motec in the U.S. since ninmeister is only in the U.K.? I would like to do this to my C4 in the future. To have over 300hp out of a NA engine sounds like a fun car.