300 hp 964
07-12-2006, 01:21 AM
#31
Three Wheelin'
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Thanx guys!
I appreciate everyone taking the time to fill in the gaps for me. I think that this will help stop the weekly debate on the Motec conversion. (well for 2 weeks anyways)
I'm not sure if everyone else already knew exactly what was being done, but I know I didnt!
It seems to me there is a bit of a hole in the North America market for a Motec conversion kit. If 9M has a pretty good idea for a basic start map, you could sell a kit with all the parts and the basic map, so people over here can get started playing with this stuff.
Basically unless you live in New York, LA or London you are kinda locked out of playing with these upgrades. Its a huge job to go this route and try and figure out everything from scratch yourself.
TPC manages to kit their supercharger. It would be nice to have the option of going the other route with a basic Motec kit. (With the kit clearly stating it is for tuners to work/experiment with, and final mapping should be done)
Personally I would lke to try a TPC supercharger out, probably without the intercooler. But funds are a little short with the engine rebuild in progress.
As long as we are talking about making some HP:
Does anyone make a turbocharger kit? I know protomotive made something for the 3.2s but did they do anything for the 3.6 engines? Other manufacturers?
Basically where I live, unless I can buy the parts and do it myself. Its not getting done. This is chevy land. 60s muscle and neon bulbed civics. There are probably only five 964s in the province. (To translate: within a thousand miles in any direction.)
Lots of 996s and boxsters now though.
Kirk
I appreciate everyone taking the time to fill in the gaps for me. I think that this will help stop the weekly debate on the Motec conversion. (well for 2 weeks anyways)
I'm not sure if everyone else already knew exactly what was being done, but I know I didnt!
It seems to me there is a bit of a hole in the North America market for a Motec conversion kit. If 9M has a pretty good idea for a basic start map, you could sell a kit with all the parts and the basic map, so people over here can get started playing with this stuff.
Basically unless you live in New York, LA or London you are kinda locked out of playing with these upgrades. Its a huge job to go this route and try and figure out everything from scratch yourself.
TPC manages to kit their supercharger. It would be nice to have the option of going the other route with a basic Motec kit. (With the kit clearly stating it is for tuners to work/experiment with, and final mapping should be done)
Personally I would lke to try a TPC supercharger out, probably without the intercooler. But funds are a little short with the engine rebuild in progress.
As long as we are talking about making some HP:
Does anyone make a turbocharger kit? I know protomotive made something for the 3.2s but did they do anything for the 3.6 engines? Other manufacturers?
Basically where I live, unless I can buy the parts and do it myself. Its not getting done. This is chevy land. 60s muscle and neon bulbed civics. There are probably only five 964s in the province. (To translate: within a thousand miles in any direction.)
Lots of 996s and boxsters now though.
Kirk
07-12-2006, 01:55 AM
#32
Drifting
Call Rich at Jerry Woods Enterprises (408) 369-9607. Plenty of references for them around here. Check them out, they did Toms Turtle. They have been most helpful to me so far, with more to come.
Originally Posted by jaboc03
So is there anyway to have motec in the U.S. since ninmeister is only in the U.K.? I would like to do this to my C4 in the future. To have over 300hp out of a NA engine sounds like a fun car.
07-12-2006, 05:09 AM
#33
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We have shipped Motec kits around the world, the extremes being South Africa running a 964RS at 1000ft above sea level and Tailand, although there are also several customers dotted around Europe, so although I would be happy to ship a kit to the USA I doubt that it will be cost effective due to the exchange rates. There is a solution though.
Since Geoffrey is obviously your most clued up Porsche aware Motec dealer, we are intending to work together to compile a 9m Motec kit for the US market. I will be supplying the special 9m conversion parts - adapter loom, MAP bracket & lead, TPS conversion, intake pipe/filter/support - and Geoffrey will supply the Motec ECU, injectors & sensors to complete the package. The obvious advantage is that Geoffrey can fine tune our start map to suit the fuel in the US, so making the job a lot easier for any Motec virgins out there. Anyone interested in the package can contact either of us.
Incidentally, the very first Motec conversion we did put down 295bhp at the tyres on an independent Bosch rolling road that I used at the time, subsequently most conversion achieve this level when tested on Shell Optimax on a cool day. Interestingly although one car did made 299bhp with a prototype air intake that I was playing around with, to date I have not managed to find the magic 300rwhp.
Since Geoffrey is obviously your most clued up Porsche aware Motec dealer, we are intending to work together to compile a 9m Motec kit for the US market. I will be supplying the special 9m conversion parts - adapter loom, MAP bracket & lead, TPS conversion, intake pipe/filter/support - and Geoffrey will supply the Motec ECU, injectors & sensors to complete the package. The obvious advantage is that Geoffrey can fine tune our start map to suit the fuel in the US, so making the job a lot easier for any Motec virgins out there. Anyone interested in the package can contact either of us.
Incidentally, the very first Motec conversion we did put down 295bhp at the tyres on an independent Bosch rolling road that I used at the time, subsequently most conversion achieve this level when tested on Shell Optimax on a cool day. Interestingly although one car did made 299bhp with a prototype air intake that I was playing around with, to date I have not managed to find the magic 300rwhp.
07-12-2006, 08:01 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
maybe you should make the special parts into a kit that can be shipped to any customer so she/he can take it to a Motec tuner anywhere in the world? 295 at the tyres would be a HUGE difference, good work!
07-12-2006, 11:15 AM
#36
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Originally Posted by spence88mph
maybe you should make the special parts into a kit that can be shipped to any customer so she/he can take it to a Motec tuner anywhere in the world? 295 at the tyres would be a HUGE difference, good work!
07-12-2006, 11:53 AM
#37
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by Christer
....why buy a996 Turbo when you can have the same power and 200kgs less weight
07-12-2006, 05:04 PM
#38
Racer
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Originally Posted by NineMeister
We have shipped Motec kits around the world, the extremes being South Africa running a 964RS at 1000ft above sea level and Tailand, although there are also several customers dotted around Europe, so although I would be happy to ship a kit to the USA I doubt that it will be cost effective due to the exchange rates. There is a solution though.
Since Geoffrey is obviously your most clued up Porsche aware Motec dealer, we are intending to work together to compile a 9m Motec kit for the US market. I will be supplying the special 9m conversion parts - adapter loom, MAP bracket & lead, TPS conversion, intake pipe/filter/support - and Geoffrey will supply the Motec ECU, injectors & sensors to complete the package. The obvious advantage is that Geoffrey can fine tune our start map to suit the fuel in the US, so making the job a lot easier for any Motec virgins out there. Anyone interested in the package can contact either of us.
Incidentally, the very first Motec conversion we did put down 295bhp at the tyres on an independent Bosch rolling road that I used at the time, subsequently most conversion achieve this level when tested on Shell Optimax on a cool day. Interestingly although one car did made 299bhp with a prototype air intake that I was playing around with, to date I have not managed to find the magic 300rwhp.
Since Geoffrey is obviously your most clued up Porsche aware Motec dealer, we are intending to work together to compile a 9m Motec kit for the US market. I will be supplying the special 9m conversion parts - adapter loom, MAP bracket & lead, TPS conversion, intake pipe/filter/support - and Geoffrey will supply the Motec ECU, injectors & sensors to complete the package. The obvious advantage is that Geoffrey can fine tune our start map to suit the fuel in the US, so making the job a lot easier for any Motec virgins out there. Anyone interested in the package can contact either of us.
Incidentally, the very first Motec conversion we did put down 295bhp at the tyres on an independent Bosch rolling road that I used at the time, subsequently most conversion achieve this level when tested on Shell Optimax on a cool day. Interestingly although one car did made 299bhp with a prototype air intake that I was playing around with, to date I have not managed to find the magic 300rwhp.
Thanks...
07-12-2006, 07:38 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by DaveK
If you look on page 2 of this thread, you will see a post from Geoffrey, and his signature contains a link to racetek engineering.
07-13-2006, 12:54 AM
#42
"I'm not convinced that sticking a new chip in is going to gain me 50hp."
Totally agree! Maybe 5, but many JUST love to "bite" and "dream on".
"I believe you might gain some (10hp maybe?) because I have no doubt that our ignition maps are a compromise."
That always occurs when the timing is "pushed". No gains come from fuel re-maps
without engine mods. Porsche did little/no compromises in the ignition maps, since
little need for 'em the result of using knock sensors. "Pushing" the ignition maps just
puts the engine closer to the "edge" causing the knock sensors to retard sooner,
resulting in less power overall.
"But I think I'd notice the fact that I had to use super unleaded all the time more than I noticed the power gain."
Yep, that's "Where it's at"!
"Personally, I'm willing to believe Motec produces decent power gains."
Now here's where the BIG question marks appears, as NO real data have been
provided in the rigorous "before/after" form! As before, there's always some
who'll "bite" even without a rational/logical/proven basis.
Always lots of claims, but little/no data.
Check out this 928 thread which provides info on how WELL Porsche
tweaks their engines to gain max performance:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-forum/285291-sharktuner-ez-k-tuning.html
It should be very insightful to many!
Note: Quotes from DaveK.
Totally agree! Maybe 5, but many JUST love to "bite" and "dream on".
"I believe you might gain some (10hp maybe?) because I have no doubt that our ignition maps are a compromise."
That always occurs when the timing is "pushed". No gains come from fuel re-maps
without engine mods. Porsche did little/no compromises in the ignition maps, since
little need for 'em the result of using knock sensors. "Pushing" the ignition maps just
puts the engine closer to the "edge" causing the knock sensors to retard sooner,
resulting in less power overall.
"But I think I'd notice the fact that I had to use super unleaded all the time more than I noticed the power gain."
Yep, that's "Where it's at"!
"Personally, I'm willing to believe Motec produces decent power gains."
Now here's where the BIG question marks appears, as NO real data have been
provided in the rigorous "before/after" form! As before, there's always some
who'll "bite" even without a rational/logical/proven basis.
Always lots of claims, but little/no data.
Check out this 928 thread which provides info on how WELL Porsche
tweaks their engines to gain max performance:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-forum/285291-sharktuner-ez-k-tuning.html
It should be very insightful to many!
Note: Quotes from DaveK.
07-13-2006, 04:33 AM
#43
"Personally, I'm willing to believe Motec produces decent power gains."
Now here's where the BIG question marks appears, as NO real data have been
provided in the rigorous "before/after" form! As before, there's always some
who'll "bite" even without a rational/logical/proven basis.
Always lots of claims, but little/no data.
Check out this 928 thread which provides info on how WELL Porsche
tweaks their engines to gain max performance:
Now here's where the BIG question marks appears, as NO real data have been
provided in the rigorous "before/after" form! As before, there's always some
who'll "bite" even without a rational/logical/proven basis.
Always lots of claims, but little/no data.
Check out this 928 thread which provides info on how WELL Porsche
tweaks their engines to gain max performance:
But isn't part of the point with Motec that you are adding new technology? When people are talking about power gains, an often heard comment is "if it really made a difference, don't you think Porsche would have done it?".
In many cases, that argument just doesn't make sense. Technology and learning move on. A new chip is not new technology - Motec is. These cars are - on average - about 15 years old. Surely technology and tuning knowledge has moved on in that time? If not - why doesn't the 3.6 993 make the same power as the 964? Why does the 996 make more power than the 964?
07-13-2006, 04:58 AM
#44
"But isn't part of the point with Motec that you are adding new technology?"
Like what?????????
The 964 DME has three microprocessors with one totally dedicated to doing the
DSP process for the knock sensor function. The design effort from Bosch for the
DSP function far out weighs what Motec's designers could do. Let's face it, an
engine management system like Motec without; ODBII, MAF verus simple TPS
or MAP, emission control, TRIM functions such as TRA/FRA, & knock sensors,
is rather simplistic.
This is examplified by the flaks in NoCal that couldn't fix the 959s for the USA
certification and had to STRIP the Bosch system and use a Motec system. What
a nice klug job for a very rare and unique car which is has now been Mickey
Moused. If Motec really had sinificant merits, Bosch would buy them with their
petty cash budget! The Motec System is for DIYs and low budget racers. Those who
are serious, pay Porsche/Bosch to provide a turn-key engine management system.
"If not - why doesn't the 3.6 993 make the same power as the 964? Why does the 996 make more power than the 964?"
It's not the later DMEs, although a little improvement there, but it's the engine
technology, e.g. VarioRam VarioCam, & etc. Many tuners "enhance" the results from
an engine management system switch by "pushing" the timing to obtain a 5-10%
improvement. The same results would have been achieved by also "pushing" the
original engine management system. That's not a real fair/valid comparison.
Remember, an engine management system only ALLOWS the engine design
to reach it's max thermodynamic output. It can not achieve outputs (torques) for which
the engine wasn't designed for, i.e. an engine management system is only a "facilitator".
Engine performance is NOT complex; You just "stuff-in" as much energy charge
as possible at the correct AFR and ignite it (timing) such that max energy/pressure is
developed/released to do work on the piston without causing detonation.
Like what?????????
The 964 DME has three microprocessors with one totally dedicated to doing the
DSP process for the knock sensor function. The design effort from Bosch for the
DSP function far out weighs what Motec's designers could do. Let's face it, an
engine management system like Motec without; ODBII, MAF verus simple TPS
or MAP, emission control, TRIM functions such as TRA/FRA, & knock sensors,
is rather simplistic.
This is examplified by the flaks in NoCal that couldn't fix the 959s for the USA
certification and had to STRIP the Bosch system and use a Motec system. What
a nice klug job for a very rare and unique car which is has now been Mickey
Moused. If Motec really had sinificant merits, Bosch would buy them with their
petty cash budget! The Motec System is for DIYs and low budget racers. Those who
are serious, pay Porsche/Bosch to provide a turn-key engine management system.
"If not - why doesn't the 3.6 993 make the same power as the 964? Why does the 996 make more power than the 964?"
It's not the later DMEs, although a little improvement there, but it's the engine
technology, e.g. VarioRam VarioCam, & etc. Many tuners "enhance" the results from
an engine management system switch by "pushing" the timing to obtain a 5-10%
improvement. The same results would have been achieved by also "pushing" the
original engine management system. That's not a real fair/valid comparison.
Remember, an engine management system only ALLOWS the engine design
to reach it's max thermodynamic output. It can not achieve outputs (torques) for which
the engine wasn't designed for, i.e. an engine management system is only a "facilitator".
Engine performance is NOT complex; You just "stuff-in" as much energy charge
as possible at the correct AFR and ignite it (timing) such that max energy/pressure is
developed/released to do work on the piston without causing detonation.
Last edited by Lorenfb; 07-13-2006 at 05:48 AM.
07-13-2006, 05:04 AM
#45
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Originally Posted by Lorenfb
"Now here's where the BIG question marks appears, as NO real data have been
provided in the rigorous "before/after" form! As before, there's always some
who'll "bite" even without a rational/logical/proven basis.
Always lots of claims, but little/no data.
provided in the rigorous "before/after" form! As before, there's always some
who'll "bite" even without a rational/logical/proven basis.
Always lots of claims, but little/no data.
Given the ease with which you manage to understand electronics and all things complicated, I am very surprised that you have not managed to find the relevant Motec pages on the old Ninemeister website where the power graphs for the Motec and Motec+1 conversions have been on show for over 4 years. Not to worry, perhaps these links will help you:
Motec basic:
http://www.porschetuning.co.uk/html/...58&quickview=1
Motec +1:
http://www.porschetuning.co.uk/html/...37&quickview=1
These were pretty much the first conversions that we completed, and with a little more fine tuning we managed to beat these figures by around 5-10bhp, probably only as a result of better air management in our own dyno cell with an identical dyno, but we figured that we would leave the old data up there so that the hp claims we make are conservative.
Now, if you still have an issue with these results measured on a 2wd FLA203 dyno, can I suggest that you take them up with the manufacturer Bosch?
Hey, wait a minute, aren't they the very same company that make the original equipment Porsche ECU??