964 Engine Rebuild
06-29-2006, 03:00 PM
#46
Racer
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Lyons, Colorado
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Kirk,
Did you take a rebuild class?
What books go you need for this?
If you weren't actually replacing cylinders, valves, camshafts, etc, what would the machine shop bill look like just to polish up all of the existing parts?
Did you take a rebuild class?
What books go you need for this?
If you weren't actually replacing cylinders, valves, camshafts, etc, what would the machine shop bill look like just to polish up all of the existing parts?
06-29-2006, 04:46 PM
#47
Burning Brakes
Plan on $1200 - $2000 for machine work, and don't skimp on this, depending on what all you do, and how many valves are still good ( I was able to reuse all but one of mine). The minimum you should do:
Heads / valve job (bead blast, 3 angle re-cut of valve seat, new guides, new exhaust studs)
Recondition and re-bush rods
Magnaflux / polish crank
polish or weld/regrind cams
polish and re-bush rocker arms
Balancing isn't really of much benefit with the 3.6 unless you plan on raising the rev limit.
Heads / valve job (bead blast, 3 angle re-cut of valve seat, new guides, new exhaust studs)
Recondition and re-bush rods
Magnaflux / polish crank
polish or weld/regrind cams
polish and re-bush rocker arms
Balancing isn't really of much benefit with the 3.6 unless you plan on raising the rev limit.
06-29-2006, 04:46 PM
#48
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I didn't take a rebuild class. I would have loved to but the only one I know of is the Bruce Anderson ones and they only happen about once a year. (There was one in may, but by the time I realised that it was about 2 days before it started.)
For books I have: (Cant remember the titles, but you;ll get the idea)
-Porsche 84-89 Service Manuals
-Porsche 964 service manuals
-Bruce Anderson 911 rebuild Book
-Wayne Dempsey 911 rebuild Book
-Adrians 964 Book
-Bentley Publishing 964 maintenance book (Basically torques / etc condensed from the service manuals)
I mostly use the Wayne Dempsey book and cross reference to the 911 service manuals for differences in the 3.6 engines. The motors have stayed basically the same for 35 years, so its not to bad.
I have rebuilt quite a few car and bike motors, but nothing quite like this engine. (And never one as expensive)
As for differences in costs:
From what I have read, its unlikely you would open up a 3.6 and not have to replace the valve guides and probably regrind the cam shafts. However:
-If previous butchers hadnt screwed up my valve guides I wouldn't have had to replace the valves. (Save $1000+)
-If my car wasnt 89-90 I wouldn't have had to spend $650 on cutting the heads for the sealing rings, and I could have saved $800 on used late style pistons/cylinders
-I had to rebush all my rocker arms and replace a couple of them, that was $450, and if you weren't going to resize and rebush your rods that would save you another $450.
Kirk
For books I have: (Cant remember the titles, but you;ll get the idea)
-Porsche 84-89 Service Manuals
-Porsche 964 service manuals
-Bruce Anderson 911 rebuild Book
-Wayne Dempsey 911 rebuild Book
-Adrians 964 Book
-Bentley Publishing 964 maintenance book (Basically torques / etc condensed from the service manuals)
I mostly use the Wayne Dempsey book and cross reference to the 911 service manuals for differences in the 3.6 engines. The motors have stayed basically the same for 35 years, so its not to bad.
I have rebuilt quite a few car and bike motors, but nothing quite like this engine. (And never one as expensive)
As for differences in costs:
From what I have read, its unlikely you would open up a 3.6 and not have to replace the valve guides and probably regrind the cam shafts. However:
-If previous butchers hadnt screwed up my valve guides I wouldn't have had to replace the valves. (Save $1000+)
-If my car wasnt 89-90 I wouldn't have had to spend $650 on cutting the heads for the sealing rings, and I could have saved $800 on used late style pistons/cylinders
-I had to rebush all my rocker arms and replace a couple of them, that was $450, and if you weren't going to resize and rebush your rods that would save you another $450.
Kirk
06-30-2006, 04:53 PM
#49
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I received the first pile of parts back from the powder coater today. (The black parts)
I had the centers of the new rotors done in black. The exhaust I had bead blasted and coated with a high heat grey, engine tin, etc also in gloss black. (And the wiper arms)
I left the new cup pipe and the back piece of the heat exchanger silver. We'll see how that looks when I get it on the engine. They may have to go to high heat grey as well.
The next batch of parts went in for red powder coat, and a pile of small pieces for zinc dichromate (ite?)
Which is going to slow down the reassembly for a bit.
Kirk
I had the centers of the new rotors done in black. The exhaust I had bead blasted and coated with a high heat grey, engine tin, etc also in gloss black. (And the wiper arms)
I left the new cup pipe and the back piece of the heat exchanger silver. We'll see how that looks when I get it on the engine. They may have to go to high heat grey as well.
The next batch of parts went in for red powder coat, and a pile of small pieces for zinc dichromate (ite?)
Which is going to slow down the reassembly for a bit.
Kirk
07-01-2006, 01:58 AM
#51
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Thanx Chance!
I was particularly happy with how the exhaust came out. I really wanted to do something to clean it up, and I was impressed with the job they did. (I know it will look like crap again in 300 miles but humour me.
)
Here is a picture that 'sorta' shows the exhaust before I sent it in.
Kirk
I was particularly happy with how the exhaust came out. I really wanted to do something to clean it up, and I was impressed with the job they did. (I know it will look like crap again in 300 miles but humour me.
)Here is a picture that 'sorta' shows the exhaust before I sent it in.
Kirk
07-01-2006, 04:42 AM
#52
Burning Brakes
Wow! I'd forgotten just how oily and dirty my engine in general was until I saw that pic. Man it feels good to have it clean, eh?
Well, I got my rods off the crank tonight - big thanks to my new buddy Tyson for helping! No really bad damage to the bearings, though one was significantly more worn than the rest. Also, couldn't feel any slop by hand by just tugging on them when they were still attached to the crank. Tyson's opinion, and I agree, is that the slop must have been in the beginning of the stretch of the bolts. One thing's for sure, the bolts were not all the same in the fastener load department. Some of the nuts released after 90 degrees, others after only 45 degrees. Well, I'm halfway home, woohoo!
Too bad you live so damned far away Kirk! It would be nice to take a drive with a Molsen-swilling fellow 964 wrencher.
P.S. - What's the current status with yours?
Well, I got my rods off the crank tonight - big thanks to my new buddy Tyson for helping! No really bad damage to the bearings, though one was significantly more worn than the rest. Also, couldn't feel any slop by hand by just tugging on them when they were still attached to the crank. Tyson's opinion, and I agree, is that the slop must have been in the beginning of the stretch of the bolts. One thing's for sure, the bolts were not all the same in the fastener load department. Some of the nuts released after 90 degrees, others after only 45 degrees. Well, I'm halfway home, woohoo!
Too bad you live so damned far away Kirk! It would be nice to take a drive with a Molsen-swilling fellow 964 wrencher.
P.S. - What's the current status with yours?
07-02-2006, 02:14 AM
#53
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I got a couple of things done today.
I strung some elastics through the rods and rotated the engine a couple times to see how it felt.
The elastics worked better than I thought they would at keeping the rods straight, so they wouldn't catch on the engine casing.
I was going to check deck height today, but I couldn't find anything that I could use to squish between the piston/head, and since its Canada Day everything was closed.
So instead I took the engine off the engine stand and put the RMS in. I tried a second time to put in the one that came with my wrightwood racing gasket set , but it kept squeezing out, and eventually it got a rip in it, so instead I put a factory porsche one in. I was much happier with the black porsche seal. It was tight, and it went in and stayed in.
Then I put the dual mass flywheel on:
I checked the bolts first to make sure they were the 62mm and not the 70mm ones. I installed them all with locktite red, then I cross torqued the bolts to 63 ft lbs. (No laughing at my flywheel lock. )
I was confused at first with the flywheel because I had a washer and spring washer, that I couldn't fit on the flywheel no matter what I tried, after about an hour I noticed a reference in PET that mentioned they were only used on the earlier DMFs and not the LUKs. (Thanks to kevin for verifying that for me).
Incidentally it was weird feeling the DMF rotate and spring back as I torqued the bolts. I have only ever put on solid flywheels before.
Kirk
I strung some elastics through the rods and rotated the engine a couple times to see how it felt.
The elastics worked better than I thought they would at keeping the rods straight, so they wouldn't catch on the engine casing.
I was going to check deck height today, but I couldn't find anything that I could use to squish between the piston/head, and since its Canada Day everything was closed.
So instead I took the engine off the engine stand and put the RMS in. I tried a second time to put in the one that came with my wrightwood racing gasket set , but it kept squeezing out, and eventually it got a rip in it, so instead I put a factory porsche one in. I was much happier with the black porsche seal. It was tight, and it went in and stayed in.
Then I put the dual mass flywheel on:
I checked the bolts first to make sure they were the 62mm and not the 70mm ones. I installed them all with locktite red, then I cross torqued the bolts to 63 ft lbs. (No laughing at my flywheel lock.
) I was confused at first with the flywheel because I had a washer and spring washer, that I couldn't fit on the flywheel no matter what I tried, after about an hour I noticed a reference in PET that mentioned they were only used on the earlier DMFs and not the LUKs. (Thanks to kevin for verifying that for me).
Incidentally it was weird feeling the DMF rotate and spring back as I torqued the bolts. I have only ever put on solid flywheels before.
Kirk
Last edited by KirkF; 07-02-2006 at 03:49 AM.
07-02-2006, 02:20 AM
#54
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Then I decided to tackle the rear bumper. It came off pretty fast. Especially using the impact.
I forgot about the license plate light wires being routed through the passenger side tail light, but other than that it went pretty smoothly. I am going to have to crawl under there and clean up the oil/tar. Its an inch thick on everything down there.
Seeing how easily the bumper comes off, I should have removed it before dropping the engine. It adds alot of clearance.
Kirk
I forgot about the license plate light wires being routed through the passenger side tail light, but other than that it went pretty smoothly. I am going to have to crawl under there and clean up the oil/tar. Its an inch thick on everything down there.
Seeing how easily the bumper comes off, I should have removed it before dropping the engine. It adds alot of clearance.
Kirk
07-02-2006, 02:26 AM
#55
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Chance,
I thought you promised us some grainy pics from the handy cam?
You probably have yours ready to go back in already!
It sucks I am so far from everybody. The only Rennlister near me was Curtis (CH) and he totalled his 964 2 weeks ago. So now its just me again.
Kirk
P.S. It was hot here today so there was alot of beer while I contemplated why I couldnt get that damned flywheel washer to fit. Duh.
I thought you promised us some grainy pics from the handy cam?
You probably have yours ready to go back in already!
It sucks I am so far from everybody. The only Rennlister near me was Curtis (CH) and he totalled his 964 2 weeks ago. So now its just me again.
Kirk
P.S. It was hot here today so there was alot of beer while I contemplated why I couldnt get that damned flywheel washer to fit. Duh.
07-03-2006, 03:06 AM
#56
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Deck Height **EDITED**
Ok I had to edit this because I wasn't happy with the deck height measurements I did. So I went back and did them over:
Lesson: Don't work on your engine when you are over tired. Too many mistakes get made.
I temporarily installed pistons 1 & 4 and their cylinders. Then I placed some 3mm solder on the top of each piston dome in line with the crank shaft and bolted the heads on at 23 ft/lbs.
I rotated the engine to crush the solder, and checked the width of the crushed solder using a caliper. This measures the clearance between the piston and the head. (Deck Height)
The edge of the piston has the tightest clearance
The deck height measured is .90mm to 1.03mm
I consulted with Steve Weiner of Rennsport systems. (Nice guy and very helpful)
"Standard deck height on these (motors) is .040 or 1.0mm. More deck promotes detonation and less permits piston-to-head contact. My tolerance is .038."
So my deck height is in the correct range.
Kirk
Lesson: Don't work on your engine when you are over tired. Too many mistakes get made.
I temporarily installed pistons 1 & 4 and their cylinders. Then I placed some 3mm solder on the top of each piston dome in line with the crank shaft and bolted the heads on at 23 ft/lbs.
I rotated the engine to crush the solder, and checked the width of the crushed solder using a caliper. This measures the clearance between the piston and the head. (Deck Height)
The edge of the piston has the tightest clearance
The deck height measured is .90mm to 1.03mm
I consulted with Steve Weiner of Rennsport systems. (Nice guy and very helpful)
"Standard deck height on these (motors) is .040 or 1.0mm. More deck promotes detonation and less permits piston-to-head contact. My tolerance is .038."
So my deck height is in the correct range.
Kirk
Last edited by KirkF; 07-03-2006 at 09:57 PM.
07-03-2006, 12:29 PM
#57
Rennlist Member
Hey- the rubber bands holding the rod ends is a great idea. I wish I had thought of that!!!
Last edited by Cupcar; 07-03-2006 at 12:53 PM.
07-03-2006, 04:11 PM
#58
Burning Brakes
Sorry, no grainy pics - you've really done a bang-up job so mine would just be redundant anyway, except of course as proof (other than my skinned knuckles) that I'm really doing this. And again, your engine is just so much prettier, I swear, I have the ugliest rebuilt engine around. It is clean though - except the alt. fan.
And now, (drum roll) I've got the long block complete + exhaust manifold. I just have to time my cams and reset my valve clearances, then bolt everything else on and I'm motoring. Big props to my stepdad (in town with my mom for the holiday) for helping me out yesterday. We started at putting the rods on. With his help (and a 5 liter mini-keg of Heineken, man those things are great) we got a LOT accomplished yesterday I'd say.
I'll see what I can do about pics (just SO hard when I'm SO tired of doing this sh*t) when I hit it again this week...
And now, (drum roll) I've got the long block complete + exhaust manifold. I just have to time my cams and reset my valve clearances, then bolt everything else on and I'm motoring. Big props to my stepdad (in town with my mom for the holiday) for helping me out yesterday. We started at putting the rods on. With his help (and a 5 liter mini-keg of Heineken, man those things are great) we got a LOT accomplished yesterday I'd say.
I'll see what I can do about pics (just SO hard when I'm SO tired of doing this sh*t) when I hit it again this week...
07-03-2006, 04:20 PM
#60
Burning Brakes
Since Kirk is offline allow me - for checking deck height. Assemble head, turn crank and run the piston to TDC and measure the thickness of the squished solder (it gets squished against the head). This height has to be reasonably close to spec or you'll have the wrong compression ratio, and/or possible valve to piston collision.
Really only necessary if you've done something which would change this, like excessive machining or replacing p/c's, heads, case. I believe Kirk replaced his p/c's so it's a good idea. The size of the p/c's didn't change, but you never know if the previous guy who had them didn't mill them down for some goofy reason. Better safe than to crater a piston/valve.
It's one of the tricks in Dempsey's book. If any of you are considering tackling a rebuild you should get this book just to see what you're in for. Doesn't currently cover the 964 but 90% of it is applicable. If you're reasonably mechanical you CAN do it. Hell I did it and I've never rebuilt anything. The books Kirk used, along with the Pelican forum, are all you need. Besides money and tools, of course.
Really only necessary if you've done something which would change this, like excessive machining or replacing p/c's, heads, case. I believe Kirk replaced his p/c's so it's a good idea. The size of the p/c's didn't change, but you never know if the previous guy who had them didn't mill them down for some goofy reason. Better safe than to crater a piston/valve.
It's one of the tricks in Dempsey's book. If any of you are considering tackling a rebuild you should get this book just to see what you're in for. Doesn't currently cover the 964 but 90% of it is applicable. If you're reasonably mechanical you CAN do it. Hell I did it and I've never rebuilt anything. The books Kirk used, along with the Pelican forum, are all you need. Besides money and tools, of course.