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Aren't 993 boxes aluminum and available for < $2000/pair? Why would we need $4,200+ 3.6 billet options as long as those are available to replace corroded mag pieces?
I just removed my boxes from my **** Box motor my son money shifted. These boxes are clearly original 146k miles mostly track and I will be reusing them. No leaks period. It is all how carefully the car was maintained that will make the difference. Every engine I reseals that has a leak coming from the box to case shows signs of sludge and other grime from long intervals of not changing their oil. We are finding many parts are aging out by now. 30 years is a long time. 993 steering racks are failing right and left after years of no issue. If the product saves money and increases availability, I'm all for it, but if it does nothing to improve, I question it. Just like making the mag fan out of aluminum is a very bad idea and people don't know. They think Aluminum is a superior material but they both have their pros and cons. 33% more weight is one factor.
Heck I don't know of many 30 year old cars any marque that aren't seeing issues from age. My biggest concern is expansion rates. Porsche calculated out this very carefully and alloys used can make a difference. Timing chain boxes in a different material are a triangulated piece that mounts to the cam tower as well as the case.
For reference these are my 146k mile 1989 original to the engine timing boxes. This car has been a club racer for at least 20 years or more. WIth over 100k miles tracked miles I will reuse these knowing when installed properly they will not leak. These also did not leak prior to me removing the engine. They are anything but warped. Although when breaking the nuts free I could tell nobody tried to overtorque these.
993 boxes are the same one side is used from the 964 the other has only minor modifications.
I’m just worried that whatever will appear in the market will cost like for a part for a rocket ship.
Designing, testing, assembly/disassembly - all labor cost. I wonder how much it costed Porsche to cast the magnesium boxes on a production scale. Certainly not 4K+
I’m just worried that whatever will appear in the market will cost like for a part for a rocket ship.
Designing, testing, assembly/disassembly - all labor cost. I wonder how much it costed Porsche to cast the magnesium boxes on a production scale. Certainly not 4K+
I have no doubt they aren't expensive to make. The machining is probably more than the casting. I could always have my friend cast these in either aluminum or magnesium. The beauty is both aluminum and magnesium have the same shrinkage factor so the tooling can be used for either. Depending on the alloy they may or may not require heat treatment. The expense is the tooling.
I was going to go into production on magnesium 935/962 suspension and other parts along with mezger cases when I was forced into early retirement. Really sad I had many plans to make most of this stuff at the fraction of Porsche's cost and I would have improved upon the designs. Such is life.
FYI they must be low in stock. I have pricing from a while back at $650 now they are $976. When supply is low prices skyrocket. I suspect they will be coming out with a new supply since they are now building engines for singer.
I think they started to charge YoY 15% for the Classic parts… madness. I’m glad I bought my 911 few years ago, but still a LOT to do including full engine rebuild.
I just removed my boxes from my **** Box motor my son money shifted. These boxes are clearly original 146k miles mostly track and I will be reusing them. No leaks period. It is all how carefully the car was maintained that will make the difference. Every engine I reseals that has a leak coming from the box to case shows signs of sludge and other grime from long intervals of not changing their oil. We are finding many parts are aging out by now. 30 years is a long time. 993 steering racks are failing right and left after years of no issue. If the product saves money and increases availability, I'm all for it, but if it does nothing to improve, I question it. Just like making the mag fan out of aluminum is a very bad idea and people don't know. They think Aluminum is a superior material but they both have their pros and cons. 33% more weight is one factor.
Heck I don't know of many 30 year old cars any marque that aren't seeing issues from age. My biggest concern is expansion rates. Porsche calculated out this very carefully and alloys used can make a difference. Timing chain boxes in a different material are a triangulated piece that mounts to the cam tower as well as the case.
For reference these are my 146k mile 1989 original to the engine timing boxes. This car has been a club racer for at least 20 years or more. WIth over 100k miles tracked miles I will reuse these knowing when installed properly they will not leak. These also did not leak prior to me removing the engine. They are anything but warped. Although when breaking the nuts free I could tell nobody tried to overtorque these.
993 boxes are the same one side is used from the 964 the other has only minor modifications.
Tony,
I am not a materials engineer, I am an IT guy/semi-retired (still work part time) Porsche mechanic. I know how to use a torque wrench and look up the factory torque settings. :-) You seem to have had better luck than I have had with the 964/993 timing boxes. We have seen lots of warped ones come though the shop. And the unfortunate part is the replacements are very expensive these days. Working in a shop, we can't afford to have them come back still leaking. That has a tendency to **** off the customer that just laid out a bunch of money on their 911 so they won't have oil spots on the garage floor. So we replace them. So on this, we can agree to disagree.
On my car, The distributor side timing box was warped enough the o-ring between it and the cam housing was not compressed on one side. Just a few thousandths twist in the timing box. But enough to cause a big leak.
I am not a materials engineer, I am an IT guy/semi-retired (still work part time) Porsche mechanic. I know how to use a torque wrench and look up the factory torque settings. :-) You seem to have had better luck than I have had with the 964/993 timing boxes. We have seen lots of warped ones come though the shop. And the unfortunate part is the replacements are very expensive these days. Working in a shop, we can't afford to have them come back still leaking. That has a tendency to **** off the customer that just laid out a bunch of money on their 911 so they won't have oil spots on the garage floor. So we replace them. So on this, we can agree to disagree.
On my car, The distributor side timing box was warped enough the o-ring between it and the cam housing was not compressed on one side. Just a few thousandths twist in the timing box. But enough to cause a big leak.
Clay
Clay,
We are getting off topic.
Trust me I fully understand, I never like to do a job twice. Especially one of this magnitude. I wasn't implying you did anything wrong. This is just some of the things I have encountered that I suspect caused the leak. Unless the part is damaged beyond repair from corrosion I have never had a problem getting these to sit properly. These weren't that precisely machined from the factory. I would need to lay one of yours out compare it to a new box before I can point out what I find. Something doesn't add up from my experience from both someone who has sealed many of these without issue and someone who manufactured mag and aluminum parts for 30 years. I suspect you wouldn't be seeing the issues you are if these were machined like Konrad is doing. A perfect mated machine surface like the case wouldn't need a gasket. I suspect if they did you could just use loctite 574 and be done with it. I also rarely see an engine with less than 120k miles show signs of leaking from the housings to the case. The cover leaking is usually the first thing to happen.
Without the box you say is twisted in front of me I can only say that I am skeptical, however anything is possible. I have never had a mag valve cover or timing box I couldn't get to sit properly and not leak unless the material itself has fully degraded.
Are you seeing leaks from the case or from the cam towers double seal? Or is it from the case to the box? Do you torque the box to the case first or the cam tower?
Maybe we should start another thread and see if others can chime in with their experiences. This is detracting from Konrad.
02-23-2023, 04:54 PM
