964 "Track Car" Vs. 2010 GT3
02-20-2018, 04:45 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
964 "Track Car" Vs. 2010 GT3
Good afternoon, let me start off apologizing if this topic is buried somewhere on this site as I've tried searching for days but haven't really found the answer I'm looking for. How much is a realistic budget to build a trackable 964 that is "reliable on both the track and street". Love the 964........All the experts let me know if these numbers make sense?
1991 964 C2 $45,000 for a solid car
Suspension $20,000
Tires and Wheels $5,000
Misc. Cage & other goodies $10,000 Seats, interior stuff, etc.
Trans & Engine mods $15,000
total $95,000 +\-
If my assumptions are correct than the next thought is if I spend this amount might I be better off dollar wise with a 2010 GT3 for around $100 to $110K? Also let it be known that I love both cars.....Just to set the table I can't afford both yet so I need to go one route or the other not. I realize these are two different cars and set ups. Completely different driving experiences but it is something I have been kicking around and was looking for a little more guidance from you guys that have been there and done that........built a 964 to find our what costs are really running. I have done projects before in the past with all of the best intentions to stay on a budget then wind up blowing it our by 40%. Still was worth it but as I get older I'm trying to be more disciplined. lol.
Any feedback you all have is wonderful. Just an honest question in my mind.... Thanks for you time.
1991 964 C2 $45,000 for a solid car
Suspension $20,000
Tires and Wheels $5,000
Misc. Cage & other goodies $10,000 Seats, interior stuff, etc.
Trans & Engine mods $15,000
total $95,000 +\-
If my assumptions are correct than the next thought is if I spend this amount might I be better off dollar wise with a 2010 GT3 for around $100 to $110K? Also let it be known that I love both cars.....Just to set the table I can't afford both yet so I need to go one route or the other not. I realize these are two different cars and set ups. Completely different driving experiences but it is something I have been kicking around and was looking for a little more guidance from you guys that have been there and done that........built a 964 to find our what costs are really running. I have done projects before in the past with all of the best intentions to stay on a budget then wind up blowing it our by 40%. Still was worth it but as I get older I'm trying to be more disciplined. lol.
Any feedback you all have is wonderful. Just an honest question in my mind.... Thanks for you time.
02-20-2018, 05:02 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
You should get some good answers here. A couple current members have both. My dream combo!
I'd take your interior budget and add it to the engine/trans section!
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...-gt3-guys.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...s-997-gt3.html
I'd take your interior budget and add it to the engine/trans section!
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...-gt3-guys.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...s-997-gt3.html
02-20-2018, 05:15 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
I raced my RS America for years and ended up getting a 996 Cup Car to replace the RSA for track duties. This isn't about one car being cheaper to operate than the other because there is no winner in that contest. It's more about the progression that Porsche has made over the years in performance and safety. A Cup Car is obviously a purpose built race car and a GT3 is a purpose built track car. They are made to handle the stress of a track and a lot of what is learned from racing ends up in the GT cars. The 964 is a pretty old platform and you'll be bolting in a lot of safety and performance items that aren't necessarily what Porsche had in mind when they made the car. I felt like I was chasing never ending performance modifications that were ultimately just making the engine more fragile as you can only do so much to an air cooled 3.6. The other issue is when you put in a full cage and a halo/HANs seat it's very difficult to get in and out of on the street let alone in an emergency situation on the track. The 997 is a turn key track car and was made to do that. I have a 997.1 GT3 but have never tracked it. Just from owning it I can tell you it seems bullet proof. The RSA wasn't but I tried making it into a full race track car and Porsche already makes one of those...The GT3.
02-20-2018, 05:16 PM
#5
Rennlist Member
It all depends on how much you want to spend, but I guarantee you can do it for far less that your estimate when it comes to the mods.
For example you can get a used set of Cup 2 wheels with new Nitto NT01 track tires for just over $1k. On the flipside there are magnesium wheels with hoosiers that will run to ten times as much. A Das Sport roll bar with 6-point Schroths and some Recaro seats will run you $2.5k-$5k depending if you buy new or used. Add KW V3 coilovers, sway bars, and a good alignment for another $4k and it will give you a huge jump in handling. So in reality you could do the basics for ~$7500 to get a 964 out on track with a decent setup. If you want to get crazy, sure you can spend another $50k in mods, but that's up to you. Spyrex has a great thread on his track build which you should check out. I'm sure he's spent a lot of money and it shows, but it will give you an idea of where you can look to get every last bit of performance out of the platform.
But once again you just have to ask yourself what performance level you are happy with and how much you are willing to spend.
For example you can get a used set of Cup 2 wheels with new Nitto NT01 track tires for just over $1k. On the flipside there are magnesium wheels with hoosiers that will run to ten times as much. A Das Sport roll bar with 6-point Schroths and some Recaro seats will run you $2.5k-$5k depending if you buy new or used. Add KW V3 coilovers, sway bars, and a good alignment for another $4k and it will give you a huge jump in handling. So in reality you could do the basics for ~$7500 to get a 964 out on track with a decent setup. If you want to get crazy, sure you can spend another $50k in mods, but that's up to you. Spyrex has a great thread on his track build which you should check out. I'm sure he's spent a lot of money and it shows, but it will give you an idea of where you can look to get every last bit of performance out of the platform.
But once again you just have to ask yourself what performance level you are happy with and how much you are willing to spend.
02-20-2018, 05:49 PM
#6
Banned
I have a 997.2 GT3 that I use 80/20 track/street with healthy dose of mods (monoball suspension, full exhaust, cup shifter/cub cables etc) and recently bought a 964 C2 for a street car. On the 964 I went through the entire suspension (AST 5200 2 way coilovers with external reservoirs, rs sway bars, elephant racing bushings, RSR inner tie rods, monoball spring plates etc). You can find my build thread if you search for my handle.
IMO, whether you choose the 964 vs the GT3 as your track car depends on what you are looking to get out of your track experience. The GT3 will likely be faster than the 964 and some may choose the GT3 over the 964 as they value pure outright speed. Although I have yet to bring the 964 to the track, I can see it being a ton of fun given the level of involvement needed to drive the 964. The 964 will likely be slower than the GT3, but some may find the experience more rewarding given the level of skill required to drive the 964 at a fast pace.
IMO, whether you choose the 964 vs the GT3 as your track car depends on what you are looking to get out of your track experience. The GT3 will likely be faster than the 964 and some may choose the GT3 over the 964 as they value pure outright speed. Although I have yet to bring the 964 to the track, I can see it being a ton of fun given the level of involvement needed to drive the 964. The 964 will likely be slower than the GT3, but some may find the experience more rewarding given the level of skill required to drive the 964 at a fast pace.
02-20-2018, 07:13 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
You simply can't compare the 2 because "they cost more or less the same". As said above, they are so different that IMO the best Porsche garage TODAY is a 964 C2 and a 7.2GT3.
So define which type of "vs." (measurement) is more important to you:
Pure speed? go for a Gt3
Old 911 feeling? 964 or anything pre 993.
Modern raw performance? GT3
Lap records? GT3
Serious stuff? GT3
"Just here having fun"? 964
Personal Challenge? 964 but probably also GT3
Endless search of performance enhancements? 964.
Instagram glory? 964 or better a RWB 964
(but next year who knows!)[...]
Trending Topics
02-20-2018, 08:58 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
[QUOTE=RSA964993;14816260]
[QUOTE=boostedt0y;14816353]I have a 997.2 GT3 that I use 80/20 track/street with healthy dose of mods (monoball suspension, full exhaust, cup shifter/cub cables etc) and recently bought a 964 C2 for a street car. On the 964 I went through the entire suspension (AST 5200 2 way coilovers with external reservoirs, rs sway bars, elephant racing bushings, RSR inner tie rods, monoball spring plates etc). You can find my build thread if you search for my handle.
[QUOTE=The Italian Pursuit;14816571]Nailed it.
You simply can't compare the 2 because "they cost more or less the same". As said above, they are so different that IMO the best Porsche garage TODAY is a 964 C2 and a 7.2GT3.
So define which type of "vs." (measurement) is more important to you:
Thank you all for your responses. Great stuff. I'm kinda of laughing out loud because now I'm figuring out how to explain to my wife I need 2 cars. 964 to tinker on, drive around town and maybe take to the track and a GT3 for track and drive around town on occasions. If I could only get her to sell her convertible 4S it would be easy, but that isn't going to happen.
MTR thank you for the budget numbers, does everyone else feel these are in the ball park? I have read Spyrex's build which seems top of the line and out of this world in a good way. I'm excited but also telling myself this is going to be another expensive hobby.
I raced my RS America for years and ended up getting a 996 Cup Car to replace the RSA for track duties. This isn't about one car being cheaper to operate than the other because there is no winner in that contest. It's more about the
It all depends on how much you want to spend, but I guarantee you can do it for far less that your estimate when it comes to the mods.
For example you can get a used set of Cup 2 wheels with new Nitto NT01 track tires for just over $1k. On the flipside there are magnesium wheels with hoosiers that will run to ten times as much. A Das Sport roll bar with 6-point Schroths
But once again you just have to ask yourself what performance level you are happy with and how much you are willing to spend.
For example you can get a used set of Cup 2 wheels with new Nitto NT01 track tires for just over $1k. On the flipside there are magnesium wheels with hoosiers that will run to ten times as much. A Das Sport roll bar with 6-point Schroths
But once again you just have to ask yourself what performance level you are happy with and how much you are willing to spend.
[QUOTE=The Italian Pursuit;14816571]Nailed it.
You simply can't compare the 2 because "they cost more or less the same". As said above, they are so different that IMO the best Porsche garage TODAY is a 964 C2 and a 7.2GT3.
So define which type of "vs." (measurement) is more important to you:
Thank you all for your responses. Great stuff. I'm kinda of laughing out loud because now I'm figuring out how to explain to my wife I need 2 cars. 964 to tinker on, drive around town and maybe take to the track and a GT3 for track and drive around town on occasions. If I could only get her to sell her convertible 4S it would be easy, but that isn't going to happen.
MTR thank you for the budget numbers, does everyone else feel these are in the ball park? I have read Spyrex's build which seems top of the line and out of this world in a good way. I'm excited but also telling myself this is going to be another expensive hobby.
02-20-2018, 09:36 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
AHAHA
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Dude you're doing it wrong. You don't get an antique because you want to go faster or you want to save money.
If you want to save money and go fast, buy the newest GT3 you can keep it stock, drive it for a year and flip it for another one.
You buy an old car because you want a different experience, a different level of driver involvement, and frankly, just something different.
My car isn't even top of the line. I've done nothing to the engine or trans. I didn't put a full cage in it. I only have KW club sports (albeit custom valved and sprung), I'm not running slicks, I don't have crazy aero, I could easily spend another 50-75k on it... :-) which would put me... not at singer money. hahaha
Don't follow my lead, I'll never retire, working slave to feed the addiction.
Let's put it this way. Take a stock GT3 997.1 and go to the track with JUST and alignment, brake pads, and brake fluid and you'll be having a crap ton of fun and be fast. Sure you can add safety, and suspension, and do all the stupid crap I did to my RS (yes it's faster than a stock car but only because it's more predictable and stable).
Or you can take a stock 964 to the track which will, frankly, SUCK. Soft, wallowy, etc. The brakes are OK as they are just better pads and fluid and ensure calipers are in good order. $1k. The suspension in my opinion is the weakest link, budget 15-20k all in roughly. Engine assuming it's in good order, just make sure it is. Same with trans. Interior, keep it stock or add some seats and a harness bar call that $5k. Wheels / tires $6k.
I'd consider that the basics to have a fun reliable 964 on track. Maybe cheaper than a 997.1GT3. Maybe.
Or even better, get a 3-4 year old reasonable mile 911S 991 PDK and probably be faster than all these options :-) And definitely cheaper.
See my point?
AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
AHAHA
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Dude you're doing it wrong. You don't get an antique because you want to go faster or you want to save money.
If you want to save money and go fast, buy the newest GT3 you can keep it stock, drive it for a year and flip it for another one.
You buy an old car because you want a different experience, a different level of driver involvement, and frankly, just something different.
My car isn't even top of the line. I've done nothing to the engine or trans. I didn't put a full cage in it. I only have KW club sports (albeit custom valved and sprung), I'm not running slicks, I don't have crazy aero, I could easily spend another 50-75k on it... :-) which would put me... not at singer money. hahaha
Don't follow my lead, I'll never retire, working slave to feed the addiction.
Let's put it this way. Take a stock GT3 997.1 and go to the track with JUST and alignment, brake pads, and brake fluid and you'll be having a crap ton of fun and be fast. Sure you can add safety, and suspension, and do all the stupid crap I did to my RS (yes it's faster than a stock car but only because it's more predictable and stable).
Or you can take a stock 964 to the track which will, frankly, SUCK. Soft, wallowy, etc. The brakes are OK as they are just better pads and fluid and ensure calipers are in good order. $1k. The suspension in my opinion is the weakest link, budget 15-20k all in roughly. Engine assuming it's in good order, just make sure it is. Same with trans. Interior, keep it stock or add some seats and a harness bar call that $5k. Wheels / tires $6k.
I'd consider that the basics to have a fun reliable 964 on track. Maybe cheaper than a 997.1GT3. Maybe.
Or even better, get a 3-4 year old reasonable mile 911S 991 PDK and probably be faster than all these options :-) And definitely cheaper.
See my point?
02-20-2018, 11:48 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
I should mention that I'll be selling my 997.1 GT3 soon as I have a 991.2 coming in August. It's right in the middle of a 964 and 997.2... sort of. Garage queen that has never been tracked. This solves your dilemma!
02-21-2018, 11:49 AM
#11
Rennlist Member
I agree as much as I enjoy driving my old 964's on the track the newer cars are just so much more capable and easier to drive fast. You will be working to drive a 964 fast but it is a lot of fun. I'm one of the true die hard hold outs that doesn't expect to be the fastest out there just enjoys driving these old school cars as they were meant to be driven.
You might consider looking into RSA964993's car he is a true standup guy and the car is probably in better condition than he claims.
If not I have a friend who has a 964 track prepped 3.8 964 currently getting fresh paint. He might be interested in selling.
You might consider looking into RSA964993's car he is a true standup guy and the car is probably in better condition than he claims.
If not I have a friend who has a 964 track prepped 3.8 964 currently getting fresh paint. He might be interested in selling.
02-22-2018, 02:38 AM
#12
Rennlist Member
Lots of good advice here. You have a fun problem.
Owning both either platform is pretty enjoyable. Very different animals but both fun in their own right. Like most things in life you can spend as much as you want. Wheel alone can be $1,500 - $4,000 or more, all depends what your comfortable or happy with. Consumables tires, pads rotors on GT3 are much more expensive. Should also consider track experience. If your beginning get the 964 for sure. Great car to learn car control.
Buying a a solid car and making it trackable is much more expensive than just buying a car setup for track in the first pace. Also much less time consuming. Power of the GT3 is pretty awesome. Downside to 964 is all the modern horsepower on track these days it is down on power. That being said 964 is the car I’ll never sell. Fun on the track and a great street car.
Cant go wrong either way. Happy hunting
Owning both either platform is pretty enjoyable. Very different animals but both fun in their own right. Like most things in life you can spend as much as you want. Wheel alone can be $1,500 - $4,000 or more, all depends what your comfortable or happy with. Consumables tires, pads rotors on GT3 are much more expensive. Should also consider track experience. If your beginning get the 964 for sure. Great car to learn car control.
Buying a a solid car and making it trackable is much more expensive than just buying a car setup for track in the first pace. Also much less time consuming. Power of the GT3 is pretty awesome. Downside to 964 is all the modern horsepower on track these days it is down on power. That being said 964 is the car I’ll never sell. Fun on the track and a great street car.
Cant go wrong either way. Happy hunting
02-22-2018, 02:58 AM
#13
Racer
Please tell me where and how you found "solid 91 C2" for $45,000 i didn't realize those still existed, i have been searching for a 964C2 for a while now in that budget and seems impossible, going to have to settle for a c4 thats reasonable
Last edited by 997Pilot; 02-22-2018 at 03:27 AM.
02-22-2018, 04:06 AM
#14
Burning Brakes
MTR thank you for the budget numbers, does everyone else feel these are in the ball park? I have read Spyrex's build which seems top of the line and out of this world in a good way. I'm excited but also telling myself this is going to be another expensive hobby.
I had a lot of fun with my 964 even with just coils fitted. Now, with a 100% monoball conversion all around, manual steering and several small upgrades i added another 5 up to 10k ($) to my suspension and it is still the same car. But realy the same car? I guess not...
Wheels: i have several sets of 17-inch wheels with different tyres. Now, i`ll start with 18' and bought a set of carrera 5-spoke wheels, which are quite competitive lightweight compared to other - more expensiver - wheels... If you have fun in hunting parts, searching for good deals, buying some stuff for "your 964 warehouse" in the basement just waiting for completion and fittment to the car.. then, the 964 is a very good platform for this purpose.. if you are focused to drive the car and expecting a car, that`s ready after the first overhaul or stay in the workshop, then you should perhaps go with a more trackier OEM version...
Some figures from my side with european touch (moneywise)
Wheels: per set with tyres 1,5k
engine: small overhaul with some small upgrades (cams and such stuff) 10k
exhaust: 5k
safety (seats, belts, rolbar/cage): 5k
lightweight parts: from nothing with just removing stuff up to endless money for fancy carbon upgrades. With 5k, you can have the major parts (CFK bonet/hood/RS-rear glas and such stuff)
brakes: depends on your solution. With a 996TT solution, you can be done within 2 or 3k... with a serious 964T/993TT solution, you will need more in the 5k
suspension: you can start with a 2k coil and can spent another 1k per pair of new bushings/camber plats/sways/ne wheel bearings.. i guess, i am in in the 10k ballpark here...
In the end, i depends on the tracks you focus to drive: i have the nordschleife as my major track and there, the 964 is brilliant in context of speed.... a serious driven GT3, no matter which year, i to fast in my opinion... would i do more days at hockenheim, redbull-ring, salzburg-ring, spa.. i would prefer a faster car...
but: i would always go with a 996Cup (that could be streed legalized here in germany) instead of a 996/997 GT3
regards from germany
thilo
02-22-2018, 08:53 AM
#15
Rennlist Member
A 996 cup can be made street legal in Germany???
Must be interesting.
Must be interesting.