Ladies and Gents,

Perhaps the title of this thread is a bit far-fetched but all the praise being heaped on the new 997 GT3 got me thinking. Here are my misc thoughts and ramblings.

-Why is a 1991 C2 with 17" wheels, simple stereo, no side air bags, no Litronic lights, etc heavier than a new 997 GT3 with 19" wheels, hi-fi sound, massive brakes, multiple air bags, water cooling system with radiatior, etc? From what I can tell the 997 GT3 doesn't use any exotic materials and offers all of the commonly found creature and safety features. The pre-Carrera impact bumper 911s were light cars but the 964s seem to be overly porky

-What suspension system should be used to best approximate the ride and handling balance that the 997 GT3, of the 996 GT3 for that matter, possesses? Perhpas custom-valved Bilsteins, H&R red springs and 964RS anti-roll bars? It is amazing how well the 997 GT3 rides considering it has firm bushings and low-profile tires.

-Is a 997 GT3 more fun to drive and rewarding to own, compared with a well-sorted 964 C2? Obviously this is hightly subjective but I would appreciate any non-smartass comments from people who have driven or owned both cars. It is a given that the 997 GT3 is a much faster car point-to-point or around a circuit, but if outright speed was our only goal none of us would ever twist the ignition of a 964!

 

1) A 964 is lighter than a 7GT3...weigh them sometime.

2) You're kidding right? You can't approximate the GT3 feel in a 964. One is a modern multi-link suspension and one is archane machperson strut & semi-trailing arm. It ain't even close. The suspension technology on the GT3 is superior in every way.

3)Cost aside, a GT3 is the car to have. We can all try to justify and say that a 964 is more "raw" or "connected" or whatever other term, but the GT3 is just a better car. It handles better, its faster, it's easier to drive...it even makes better noises (reving one to over 8k is soooooo right). I would trade my car for a 997 cup in a heartbeat, assuming the running costs were the same (they are not).

Btw, I own a 964 cup and have driven a 997 GT3 RS on the track.

 

A wonderful response! Thank you

-A 997 GT3 with few options is 30XXlbs. I think most 964 C2s are heavier.

-Both cars have Macpherson strut front suspension. I did say approximate and not carbon-copy! What is the best ride and handling compromise kit for a 964?

 

The factory weights are somewhat meaningless, as how Porsche has done them has changed over the years (full tank of gas, empty, etc). A 7GT3 is at least 150lbs heavier than a stock C2. A more apples to apple comparison would be the 964 RS to the GT3 RS, in which case the 964 is significantly lighter.

 

i have one of the lightest RS (no options), it's 3200 with 1/2 tank or so of fuel. it's heavier than 964 for sure.

the rear susp is way too different b/n the two cars to approximate anything. drive both and you will understand.

 

GT3 better in every way?

I drove a 3 and it ain't better than my 64turbo

 

I raced a 91 964 turbo for a couple of years, and the 7GT3 crushes the 964 turbo in speed, handling and braking. I've also driven a 3.6 turbo on the track, and again, it's a great car but in terms of capability it is not even close to a 7GT3. For an occasional street car, I would want a 91 Turbo S, and for daily driving a 997 turbo. For the track I would take a 997 cup. Of course I would take a 964 cup over a street GT3 simply because I prefer the factory prep'd race versions over the compromise street versions.

 

Although you've already been corrected once, you should be corrected a second emphatic time for not realizing that both cars using MacPherson struts up front.

I agree otherwise that the GT3 is superior in just about every measurable way.

I haven't driven a current GT3, but have driven a current GT3 RS both on street and track (basically the same thing). Price no object, I'd take the GT3 every time over a standard 964 C2.

 

I really don´t see the point of this thread, I have a friend that owns a 997 GT3, and he paid more than 5 times the price of my 964 C2 1993 for it.
It is a beauty and I would love to have one (and surely it´s a better car) but I don´t think I can buy one... not in this life
Maybe if a win the lottery....

 

Just for ****s and giggles really

I have driven both versions of the new GT3 and they are obviously superior in all measureable ways, however while many of us here could a afford a new GT3 we might choose to remain faithful to our old 964s because they are such wonderful cars. Traditional in look and feel, well screwed together, entertaining to drive and somewhat unique to look at.

As I said before, pace, whether it be in a straight line or around a circuit isn't the only reason to own a 911. If it were then every '73 RS owner would be dumping their car for a new GT3 or even a Carrera S or Cayman!

Picture yourself going on a solo Sunday morning drive down your favorite 100 miles of tarmac. No stopwatch, no other cars to compete against and no crowds to impress. With every wiggle of the steering wheel, every body motion, every press on the brake pedal and every additional RPM singing in your ears, is your smile just as large in your 964 (RS-spec to be fair) as it would be in a 997 GT3? To me this is where the decision between the two cars lie.

Doesn't anyone on this forum own both cars? Ideally the comparison would be a 997 GT3 vs an updated 964 C2 or even a 964 RS. An standard '89 C4 with 250k miles would no doubt feel pretty uninspiring after a few miles in a GT3! Ditch the AWD and toss on a sport exhaust, RS flywheel and better suspension and the 964 becomes a different animal, just as a standard 997 morphs into the GT3 variant.

Back to my suspension question, there must be a package of components that gives a sporting but comfortable street ride and offers sharp track manners.
Perhaps specially-valved Bilsteins with H&R springs and RS anti-roll bars? The standard Bilstein HDs seem to be a bit lacking in rebound control. Does anyone else agree? I rode in a 964 with JICs and I found them to be too firm for daily use.

 

Sorry, what I was intending to point out was the difference between the front a-arms on the 964 and the GT3's longitudinal and transverse links.


Such a compromise suspension does not exist. A good track suspension is really only good on smoother roads. A good street suspension sucks at the track. I had 700/900# springs on by 964 turbos and it was fine for occasional street use, but you would not have wanted to daily drive into NYC in the thing. By contrast, my Boxster S had the M030 setup and it was pretty horrid at the track.

 

I would argue that the 997 GT3 comes very close to achieving it

Not to beat a dead horse, because I know that an old 964 will never ride and handle like a new Porsche, but I don't believe that there isn't a comfortable street suspension that also works appropriately for DE and time-trial events that can be fitted to a 964.

Apply modern spring, damper and bushing technology to a 964 and good things should happen.

 

Giday Crew, here's a few car weights I have tracked down a 92/964/c2 RS light weight comes in at 1230 Kg (laden) 997 GT3/RS comes in at 1375Kg (unladen) and if it is RHD 66Ltrs and if LHD 90 Ltrs so at its heavyest she comes in at 1465 Kg which is around 3223 Lbs and the 964 2706 Lbs if you can believe what you read cheers

 

What spring rates? JIC's come in different spring rates and can have custom rates.

Marc

 

As I agree with the comments that for the track the GT3 is out of the box a far superior car. If your racing and need the fastest time ease to drive and modern components it is a pointless argument. The GT3 wins. Why work harder than you have to, the point is to win.

Now as far as winning for driving pleasure I will always choose a 964 N/A or turbo myself. I Personally find the older cars to be more pleasurable to drive hands down. If I had to pick any of the newer cars the GT2 would be by far my first choice than the GT3 followed by the turbo. Although none of them can put as big of a smile on my face as my 964 turbo period. Even the GT2 with the rear wheel drive and nearly 500 hp doesn't quite thrill as much as the older cars. I could care less for the street, which one is faster which one is quicker and which one handles best. The older cars can be made to do everything quite well and still retain the old school charm and charisma these newer cars lack. If they are capable without being fun than why drive them on the street. Were not racing were driving. Even on the track I still prefer my old school 911. It doesn't forgive and it makes me think about my driving I find the newer cars to be too forgiving and easy to drive. I would rather know I did it right in a 964 than wonder if the TT made up for my lack of ability.

Sure after 3-400 miles I would be exhausted by driving my C2 or turbo and probably limited effect from a 996/7TT but I prefer the exhaustion from these older cars over the detached feeling (boredom) I get from driving these newer capable cars that only excite if driven on the track at their limits. Hell the term sports car came from the days of no frills, raw and exciting to driving. Otherwise it was categorized as a GT which I think says it in their names.