NiCom cylinder plating
11-08-2003, 07:50 PM
#1
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NiCom cylinder plating
From the thread "3.0L project", the subject of cylinder coating/plating/treatments,,etc came up. A person responding referred to US Chrome offering NiCom for aluminum engines, for bringing back old bores to life. I've emailed them to discuss piston and rings and there are some of you who probably have those answers. I know that they work with JE pistons. Anyway, here is an exert from the web site to give those of you who are not familiar with it as I was not either. Interesting stuff:
NiCom
Electroplated composites consist of a plated metal matrix with one or more other materials uniformly dispersed throughout it. These coatings are applied in a single plating bath and any material that can be plated with other metals can be plated with composites.
Composites combine the properties of two or more separate materials synergistically to produce new materials with properties superior to any of the components. A familiar example is concrete which is a composite of portland cement, sand and gravel.
Our electrodeposited composites are principally nickel and silicon carbide in which the nickel is the matrix analogous to the portland cement in concrete while the silicon carbide can be compared to the sand and gravel. With any of our composites a very small amount of a laminar lubricant such as boron nitride or graphite can be added to improve the frictional properties.
Occasionally technical people will express concern over the fact that silicon carbide is also an abrasive. An extremely hard material, its function is to greatly increase the wear resistance of the coating. IT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT ABRASIVE in our composites because of its minute particle size which averages 3 microns.
All surface finishes possible with other metals and ceramics are possible with these composites.
In sliding wear applications, under a wide range of loads, U. S. Chrome's NiCom wears up to 10 times the same thickness of chromium. This is its most outstanding property, but it also has good frictional characteristics, in part due to its superior wettability compared with chromium or electroless nickel. It is very easy to maintain hydrodynamic lubrication conditions because of the oleophyllic nature of the coating. This accounts for its very extensive use abroad in internal combustion engine cylinders and hydraulic equipment. Additionally, it has excellent corrosion resistance and its upper operating temperature is greater than chromium or electroless nickel. Prolonged exposure to 1200 F (540 C) does not result in significant loss of its physical properties.
Our unique honing process uses a double diamond plateau technique that symmetrically sizes the bore. The finished surface allows for superior oil retention due to the oleophyllic nature of the silicon carbide in the NiCom coating. The repaired part is then thoroughly inspected before being returned to the customer.
U.S. Chrome has more than twenty years of experience with Nickel-Carbide composites. Our principal contribution lies in our proprietary technology that enables us to apply the coating as easily as ordinary nickel plating using standard equipment to produce thicknesses up to 0.125' (3.2 mm). As a practical matter, electroless nickel composites are limited to coatings of 0.001" (25.4 microns) or less.
Some of the properties of NiCom, U.S. Chrome's Nickel-Carbide composite, are summarized below in comparison with typical engineering chromium and electroless nickel. Further data on other properties are available from U.S. Chrome on request.
NiCom
Electroplated composites consist of a plated metal matrix with one or more other materials uniformly dispersed throughout it. These coatings are applied in a single plating bath and any material that can be plated with other metals can be plated with composites.
Composites combine the properties of two or more separate materials synergistically to produce new materials with properties superior to any of the components. A familiar example is concrete which is a composite of portland cement, sand and gravel.
Our electrodeposited composites are principally nickel and silicon carbide in which the nickel is the matrix analogous to the portland cement in concrete while the silicon carbide can be compared to the sand and gravel. With any of our composites a very small amount of a laminar lubricant such as boron nitride or graphite can be added to improve the frictional properties.
Occasionally technical people will express concern over the fact that silicon carbide is also an abrasive. An extremely hard material, its function is to greatly increase the wear resistance of the coating. IT IS ABSOLUTELY NOT ABRASIVE in our composites because of its minute particle size which averages 3 microns.
All surface finishes possible with other metals and ceramics are possible with these composites.
In sliding wear applications, under a wide range of loads, U. S. Chrome's NiCom wears up to 10 times the same thickness of chromium. This is its most outstanding property, but it also has good frictional characteristics, in part due to its superior wettability compared with chromium or electroless nickel. It is very easy to maintain hydrodynamic lubrication conditions because of the oleophyllic nature of the coating. This accounts for its very extensive use abroad in internal combustion engine cylinders and hydraulic equipment. Additionally, it has excellent corrosion resistance and its upper operating temperature is greater than chromium or electroless nickel. Prolonged exposure to 1200 F (540 C) does not result in significant loss of its physical properties.
Our unique honing process uses a double diamond plateau technique that symmetrically sizes the bore. The finished surface allows for superior oil retention due to the oleophyllic nature of the silicon carbide in the NiCom coating. The repaired part is then thoroughly inspected before being returned to the customer.
U.S. Chrome has more than twenty years of experience with Nickel-Carbide composites. Our principal contribution lies in our proprietary technology that enables us to apply the coating as easily as ordinary nickel plating using standard equipment to produce thicknesses up to 0.125' (3.2 mm). As a practical matter, electroless nickel composites are limited to coatings of 0.001" (25.4 microns) or less.
Some of the properties of NiCom, U.S. Chrome's Nickel-Carbide composite, are summarized below in comparison with typical engineering chromium and electroless nickel. Further data on other properties are available from U.S. Chrome on request.
11-10-2003, 07:47 PM
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For those who sent a PM on this subject.
I talked to US Chrome today. They have several plants around the country that can do the work, they are listed on their website. The cost to bore, plate, diamond hone the NiCom to your piston(your PORSCHE pistons or JE aftermarket) size is $750. All studs need to be removed top and bottom. Turn around time is usually a week, depends on work load.
I talked to US Chrome today. They have several plants around the country that can do the work, they are listed on their website. The cost to bore, plate, diamond hone the NiCom to your piston(your PORSCHE pistons or JE aftermarket) size is $750. All studs need to be removed top and bottom. Turn around time is usually a week, depends on work load.
11-10-2003, 11:28 PM
#4
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Believe what you want about what they said.
I find it amusing that they claim that silicone carbide is not an abrasive. Funny how i seemed to remember that being used to make sandpaper. Oh yes, it is 3 microns, of coarse it couldnt be abrasive. There are no three micron abrasives out there. In fact, i dont even have any 1 micron diamond abrasive sitting on my desk at home.
Anyways, they have less than stellar explanation of what they do.
What I can say is composite plating is very possible. I have played around with some composite plating. what I have deposited is a nickel matrix with a sub-micron teflon dispersion. It is very hard and yet self lubricating and resists corrosion.
Knowing some plating, I would say $750 is a lot. However, can you do it yourself cheaper? I doubt it. They have less than $100 into doing it. But as the story of teh old mechanic goes: Thats $1 for the bolt and $25 to know where the bolt goes.
Ask how they plan on masking the block and issues such as that. Plating tend to get all over everything.
The other thing they mention is how poor electroless nickel is. You need to ask them if this is an electolytic nickel process or electroless. I would bet that it is an electroless nickel.
Also, when they talk about adhesion, keep in mind that nickel will not plate onto aluminum without some tricks. The nickel will only stick as well as the intermediate coating.
Most of the NikAsil type process that are used are flame sprayed. These are much different.
If I can help out, let me know.
-Dana
I find it amusing that they claim that silicone carbide is not an abrasive. Funny how i seemed to remember that being used to make sandpaper. Oh yes, it is 3 microns, of coarse it couldnt be abrasive. There are no three micron abrasives out there. In fact, i dont even have any 1 micron diamond abrasive sitting on my desk at home.
Anyways, they have less than stellar explanation of what they do.
What I can say is composite plating is very possible. I have played around with some composite plating. what I have deposited is a nickel matrix with a sub-micron teflon dispersion. It is very hard and yet self lubricating and resists corrosion.
Knowing some plating, I would say $750 is a lot. However, can you do it yourself cheaper? I doubt it. They have less than $100 into doing it. But as the story of teh old mechanic goes: Thats $1 for the bolt and $25 to know where the bolt goes.
Ask how they plan on masking the block and issues such as that. Plating tend to get all over everything.
The other thing they mention is how poor electroless nickel is. You need to ask them if this is an electolytic nickel process or electroless. I would bet that it is an electroless nickel.
Also, when they talk about adhesion, keep in mind that nickel will not plate onto aluminum without some tricks. The nickel will only stick as well as the intermediate coating.
Most of the NikAsil type process that are used are flame sprayed. These are much different.
If I can help out, let me know.
-Dana
11-10-2003, 11:49 PM
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Dana,
If you don't have any 1 micron diamond on your desk we have it down to 1/4 micron diamond at work.
Alan
If you don't have any 1 micron diamond on your desk we have it down to 1/4 micron diamond at work.
Alan
11-11-2003, 08:20 AM
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Dana, appreciate your insite. There is a tuner in the southeast who has three Nicom engines presently running in SCCA events, DE, Auto X, events; two N/A cars and one turbo. They have a little over a year on all three. These are sort of their test cars and they will be torn down at the end of this year and checked but so far so good.
I have the information packet coming..
$750 is a lot of money,,so is $1600 for a set of PORSCHE 1st oversize pistons, plus bore and alusil. If MAHLE gets going again on the pistons they will probably be cheaper in the future but they haven't gotten going on them yet; talked to MAHLE U.S. the other day. After calling Powerhaus, Andial, Under Pressure,,etc,,there was one set here in the states that those individuals could put their hands on a couple of weeks ago. JE pistons, I got three different prices on those, from $625 to $850 when inquiring on prices,,but with NiCom they can plate and then diamond hone the bores out to match you factory pistons if they are in good shape.
I was looking for an alternative to sleeving and I asked about the graphite being used, etc, etc,. I got an email from a rennlister, 928 owner who is running NiCom cylinders on his twin turbo charged 928 racer.
Dana: You have an engine that has 3 bores that are good(spare engine). #3 bore is .058mm from the piston measurment, with tolerance being .060mm. If you rebore and alusil lap, you are past tolerance or right on the edge. You don't want to sleeve, all your pistons are mint and measure 99.261 to 99.290. What would you do? I mean this is very much a learning curve for me,,,I am far from an expert, just trying to sort through the maze. TIA.
I have the information packet coming..
$750 is a lot of money,,so is $1600 for a set of PORSCHE 1st oversize pistons, plus bore and alusil. If MAHLE gets going again on the pistons they will probably be cheaper in the future but they haven't gotten going on them yet; talked to MAHLE U.S. the other day. After calling Powerhaus, Andial, Under Pressure,,etc,,there was one set here in the states that those individuals could put their hands on a couple of weeks ago. JE pistons, I got three different prices on those, from $625 to $850 when inquiring on prices,,but with NiCom they can plate and then diamond hone the bores out to match you factory pistons if they are in good shape.
I was looking for an alternative to sleeving and I asked about the graphite being used, etc, etc,. I got an email from a rennlister, 928 owner who is running NiCom cylinders on his twin turbo charged 928 racer.
Dana: You have an engine that has 3 bores that are good(spare engine). #3 bore is .058mm from the piston measurment, with tolerance being .060mm. If you rebore and alusil lap, you are past tolerance or right on the edge. You don't want to sleeve, all your pistons are mint and measure 99.261 to 99.290. What would you do? I mean this is very much a learning curve for me,,,I am far from an expert, just trying to sort through the maze. TIA.
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11-11-2003, 09:38 AM
#8
Nordschleife Master
$750 doesn't sound bad at all compared to the sleeving process or does it? It thought sleeving was at least as expensive and I keep on hearing bad things about those sleeved engines.
$1500 for a NiCom processed engine with new forged pistons =
$1500 for a NiCom processed engine with new forged pistons =
11-11-2003, 11:16 AM
#9
What bad things have you heard about sleeved engines? Specifically the sleeving that has been done with 944blocks?
11-11-2003, 11:42 AM
#10
Nordschleife Master
Different materials in the block and sleeves which expands differently to heat which usally calles for large/untight piston to cylinder tolerances.
High leakdown numbers etc.
The sleeved engines don't seem to last very long.
High leakdown numbers etc.
The sleeved engines don't seem to last very long.
11-11-2003, 11:44 AM
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I have nothing against sleeving at all. I was just searching for another option if it presented itself.
Anything that is abrasive by itself can be manufactured smooth I would think,,I'm sure there are exceptions to every rule. But when talking about silicone carbide, the process is diamond honed and it is just a small part. Hey, look at sand. It can becomes glass
Anything that is abrasive by itself can be manufactured smooth I would think,,I'm sure there are exceptions to every rule. But when talking about silicone carbide, the process is diamond honed and it is just a small part. Hey, look at sand. It can becomes glass
11-11-2003, 12:06 PM
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I've never heard bad about recently sleeved engines, in any car - I believe the technology and knowhow has spread enough that there's no longer any reason NOT to sleeve.
Sam
Sam
11-11-2003, 01:15 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
Ski:
I had my block Nicom plated by US Chrome. They charged me $650.00. I am using the factory turbo 100mm pistons with 964 piston rings. I have 200 miles or so on it, and everything is fine so far. We will see. The initial pre-run cold compression test was 135 - 140 psi for all cylinders. I plan to do another test at the 500 mile mark. It was more of an experiment in trying to find an alternate to the high dollar oversize pistons and lack of machine shops willing/qualified to polish the bores to final size and finish.
The bores were beautiful, but I had some issues with the way they stripped the rest of the block. Basically, if is steel and left in the block, it will be trashed by the caustic bath the block gets prior to plating. The biggest problems were the hollow dowel pins locating the front main and balance shaft bearing shells and ham fisted upside down stud reinstallation.
If it blows up, I will let you know!
I had my block Nicom plated by US Chrome. They charged me $650.00. I am using the factory turbo 100mm pistons with 964 piston rings. I have 200 miles or so on it, and everything is fine so far. We will see. The initial pre-run cold compression test was 135 - 140 psi for all cylinders. I plan to do another test at the 500 mile mark. It was more of an experiment in trying to find an alternate to the high dollar oversize pistons and lack of machine shops willing/qualified to polish the bores to final size and finish.
The bores were beautiful, but I had some issues with the way they stripped the rest of the block. Basically, if is steel and left in the block, it will be trashed by the caustic bath the block gets prior to plating. The biggest problems were the hollow dowel pins locating the front main and balance shaft bearing shells and ham fisted upside down stud reinstallation.
If it blows up, I will let you know!
11-11-2003, 01:30 PM
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Thanks Keith!! I hope you have good news for you and the rest of us.
The did tell me the block needed to be bare and especially of all steel. You can heat up the surrounding areas to get the dowels out for the head and the roll pins on the main bearing and the balance shaft bearings. The head dowels, I mean you could cut them off and drill them out if you had to but he roll pins, they can a real PITA if you mess them up.
Best of luck to you and keep us updated! Which plant did you send your block to Keith? Why did you choose the 964 rings? You know what would be interesting; after you do your compression test, if you found someone who had a small borescope that would fit down the spark plug hole and look at the cylinder walls since you know what the looked like new - with the nice oil rentention that NiCom offers,,,anyway, just a thought. Are you breaking the engine with dino oil?
The did tell me the block needed to be bare and especially of all steel. You can heat up the surrounding areas to get the dowels out for the head and the roll pins on the main bearing and the balance shaft bearings. The head dowels, I mean you could cut them off and drill them out if you had to but he roll pins, they can a real PITA if you mess them up.
Best of luck to you and keep us updated! Which plant did you send your block to Keith? Why did you choose the 964 rings? You know what would be interesting; after you do your compression test, if you found someone who had a small borescope that would fit down the spark plug hole and look at the cylinder walls since you know what the looked like new - with the nice oil rentention that NiCom offers,,,anyway, just a thought. Are you breaking the engine with dino oil?