School me on stock wastegate operation, oddjob, CW, Sid etc
03-12-2014, 05:14 PM
#93
Both of you are guilty, but you are doing it a lot more. What is that? COMPLETELY misrepresenting what the other is saying. Completely misquoting him. That's why I said I don't see much disagreement. Y'all are both arguing for the mere sake of arguing. Instead of trying to understand each other, you are both operating in the mindset of trying to find a "gotcha" quote. Sheesh, if you'd stop doing that, you'd realize y'all are more or less saying the same thing.
At least i can admit i'm wrong. Unlike someone.
and running a line directly to the wastegate doesn't give you spring pressure!!!
and running a line directly to the wastegate doesn't give you spring pressure!!!
Spring rate is with no boost what so ever going to the wastegate diaphragm. That means with the line connected directly you will get half the amount of boost.
What are you confused about.
That's why the cycling valve runs on a set duty cycle. If it was feeding boost directly to the wastegate, you will see at least half the amount of boost pressure. NOT WASTEGATE SPRING PRESSURE.
If you clam the line. not allowing boost to enter the wastegate. the backpressure will now force the valve to open allowing the turbo reach a certain boost level. As in the original thread. the OP was getting 15psi which is about right for his issue.
What are you confused about.
That's why the cycling valve runs on a set duty cycle. If it was feeding boost directly to the wastegate, you will see at least half the amount of boost pressure. NOT WASTEGATE SPRING PRESSURE.
If you clam the line. not allowing boost to enter the wastegate. the backpressure will now force the valve to open allowing the turbo reach a certain boost level. As in the original thread. the OP was getting 15psi which is about right for his issue.
point 1. paulyy stated "running a line directly to the wastegate doesn't give you spring pressure!!!".... where clearly it does.
point 2. "Spring rate is with no boost what so ever going to the wastegate diaphragm".... if no pressure is going to the wastegate the spring rate has nothing pushing agaisnt it to open, this doesnt cause spring rate it causes over boost.
point 3. "If you clamp the line. not allowing boost to enter the wastegate. the backpressure will now force the valve to open".... back pressure wont open the valve adequitely enough to regulate the boost and will cause an over boost condition, when the OP only saw 15 psi under a clamped line condition this points to a open sticking valve in the wastegate as a clamped wastegate should spin the turbo to its limits.
These are the key point where the arguments are occuring. we clearly are not saying the same thing as he is quoted here saying false statements This forum was posted by lart in the attempt to "school moroni944" as lart puts it, after insulting me and my knowledge of wastegates all while he was being completely inacurate as a few members have already pointed out as shown below.
I read these two entertaining threads.
Paulyy and Lart; you are huge contributors to this forum.
But holy cow are you's getting this wastegate issue all wrong!
Mahoney understands it fully and it was endorsed by Chris White (very delicately). So why don't you sit back and re-think it a bit.
Back pressure in the cross-over and boost pressure in the wastegate diaphragm act in completely different capacities. Although both pressures do act in the same direction, and it doesn't matter if it's the stock wastegate or an aftermarket. The stock valve just opens away from the wastegate body and the tial (for example) valve opens into the body of the wastegate itself; in either case it has no bearings on the arguement here.
The exhaust pressure forcing against the wastegate spring has a relatively small effect because that part of the mechanical opening of the wastegate valve works on the principal of pressure differential between the high side and the low side (where the exhaust escapes out of). You can imagine that when the valve is open even just a little bit, the exhaust escapes around the valve edges and the pressure equalizes very easily (which means the exhaust pressure looses its' force on the valve.
Contrary, the actual boost signal coming from the turbo which acts on the diaphragm has nowhere to go but push against the wastegate spring. This is much more powerful and therefore is by far the main signal to move the wastegate valve. Therefore if you cut this pressure to the wastegate, the valve will barely move off its' seat and runaway boost pressure will result. (up to the turbos' capacity)
Paulyy and Lart; you are huge contributors to this forum.
But holy cow are you's getting this wastegate issue all wrong!
Mahoney understands it fully and it was endorsed by Chris White (very delicately). So why don't you sit back and re-think it a bit.
Back pressure in the cross-over and boost pressure in the wastegate diaphragm act in completely different capacities. Although both pressures do act in the same direction, and it doesn't matter if it's the stock wastegate or an aftermarket. The stock valve just opens away from the wastegate body and the tial (for example) valve opens into the body of the wastegate itself; in either case it has no bearings on the arguement here.
The exhaust pressure forcing against the wastegate spring has a relatively small effect because that part of the mechanical opening of the wastegate valve works on the principal of pressure differential between the high side and the low side (where the exhaust escapes out of). You can imagine that when the valve is open even just a little bit, the exhaust escapes around the valve edges and the pressure equalizes very easily (which means the exhaust pressure looses its' force on the valve.
Contrary, the actual boost signal coming from the turbo which acts on the diaphragm has nowhere to go but push against the wastegate spring. This is much more powerful and therefore is by far the main signal to move the wastegate valve. Therefore if you cut this pressure to the wastegate, the valve will barely move off its' seat and runaway boost pressure will result. (up to the turbos' capacity)
03-12-2014, 05:36 PM
#94
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The truth you can't handle the truth.
03-12-2014, 05:41 PM
#95
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Easier to make a plate that bolts right to the wastegate inlet (with gasket) and thread in an air line quick disconnect fitting. 10 mins of fab and you are ready to go.
You have about 1.25 sq inches of valve area - so at 60lbs of air pressure you will get 75lbs of force on the valve.....might be getting close to enough force, especially if the spring it a little tired.
But to be able to use this info on the forum you will need 6 witnesses, 4 youtube videos, notarized statements with altitude, air temp, humidity reports and at least one fiery explosion of some sort.
You have about 1.25 sq inches of valve area - so at 60lbs of air pressure you will get 75lbs of force on the valve.....might be getting close to enough force, especially if the spring it a little tired.
But to be able to use this info on the forum you will need 6 witnesses, 4 youtube videos, notarized statements with altitude, air temp, humidity reports and at least one fiery explosion of some sort.
03-12-2014, 06:24 PM
#96
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Just my opinion but I think we need to have a bit more tolerance around here especially for newbies. We definitely need to address diferences without insults or disrespect.
03-12-2014, 06:59 PM
#97
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This all started in another forum, where paulyy posted this
Im not mis representing what they are saying as i have only proven my points with the posts that that have made directly quoted.
point 1. paulyy stated "running a line directly to the wastegate doesn't give you spring pressure!!!".... where clearly it does.
If i'm not mistaking, In the manual it says the gate spring pressure is .7 bar. Connect a line to it. What do you get? ~0.2bar.
point 2. "Spring rate is with no boost what so ever going to the wastegate diaphragm".... if no pressure is going to the wastegate the spring rate has nothing pushing agaisnt it to open, this doesnt cause spring rate it causes over boost.
In the original posters case, this is was was happening (really does look like you're not paying attention) because you're running on the spring only.
point 3. "If you clamp the line. not allowing boost to enter the wastegate. the backpressure will now force the valve to open".... back pressure wont open the valve adequitely enough to regulate the boost and will cause an over boost condition, when the OP only saw 15 psi under a clamped line condition this points to a open sticking valve in the wastegate as a clamped wastegate should spin the turbo to its limits.
same as post 2 and yes, the back pressure is the only force to open the valve.
These are the key point where the arguments are occuring. we clearly are not saying the same thing as he is quoted here saying false statements This forum was posted by lart in the attempt to "school moroni944" as lart puts it, after insulting me and my knowledge of wastegates all while he was being completely inacurate as a few members have already pointed out as shown below.
I dont want to made out the bad guy in this case, as im only defending the truth of the situation
Im not mis representing what they are saying as i have only proven my points with the posts that that have made directly quoted.
point 1. paulyy stated "running a line directly to the wastegate doesn't give you spring pressure!!!".... where clearly it does.
If i'm not mistaking, In the manual it says the gate spring pressure is .7 bar. Connect a line to it. What do you get? ~0.2bar.
point 2. "Spring rate is with no boost what so ever going to the wastegate diaphragm".... if no pressure is going to the wastegate the spring rate has nothing pushing agaisnt it to open, this doesnt cause spring rate it causes over boost.
In the original posters case, this is was was happening (really does look like you're not paying attention) because you're running on the spring only.
point 3. "If you clamp the line. not allowing boost to enter the wastegate. the backpressure will now force the valve to open".... back pressure wont open the valve adequitely enough to regulate the boost and will cause an over boost condition, when the OP only saw 15 psi under a clamped line condition this points to a open sticking valve in the wastegate as a clamped wastegate should spin the turbo to its limits.
same as post 2 and yes, the back pressure is the only force to open the valve.
These are the key point where the arguments are occuring. we clearly are not saying the same thing as he is quoted here saying false statements This forum was posted by lart in the attempt to "school moroni944" as lart puts it, after insulting me and my knowledge of wastegates all while he was being completely inacurate as a few members have already pointed out as shown below.
I dont want to made out the bad guy in this case, as im only defending the truth of the situation
I've even posted real data logs to show what happens with a "weak" spring.
so please shut up.
03-12-2014, 06:59 PM
#98
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Shawn, that's the smartest comment made in the course of this laughable thread.
03-12-2014, 07:24 PM
#99
on a stock wastegate
This thread is very comical lol, just like paulyy thinking if he clamps his wastegates feed line he won’t over boost. If you don’t send boost pressure the wastegate, it doesn’t open enough to regulate boost properly creating over boost or a condition where the turbo will boost as high as it physically can. vice versa, if you run a direct line to the main port (j pipe to wg )it will run at the spring rate.
Pauerman, you sold wastegates for years. care to post your thoughts on my above statement.
This thread is very comical lol, just like paulyy thinking if he clamps his wastegates feed line he won’t over boost. If you don’t send boost pressure the wastegate, it doesn’t open enough to regulate boost properly creating over boost or a condition where the turbo will boost as high as it physically can. vice versa, if you run a direct line to the main port (j pipe to wg )it will run at the spring rate.
Pauerman, you sold wastegates for years. care to post your thoughts on my above statement.
03-12-2014, 07:31 PM
#100
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on a stock wastegate
This thread is very comical lol, just like paulyy thinking if he clamps his wastegates feed line he won’t over boost. If you don’t send boost pressure the wastegate, it doesn’t open enough to regulate boost properly creating over boost or a condition where the turbo will boost as high as it physically can. vice versa, if you run a direct line to the main port (j pipe to wg )it will run at the spring rate.
Pauerman, you sold wastegates for years. care to post your thoughts on my above statement.
This thread is very comical lol, just like paulyy thinking if he clamps his wastegates feed line he won’t over boost. If you don’t send boost pressure the wastegate, it doesn’t open enough to regulate boost properly creating over boost or a condition where the turbo will boost as high as it physically can. vice versa, if you run a direct line to the main port (j pipe to wg )it will run at the spring rate.
Pauerman, you sold wastegates for years. care to post your thoughts on my above statement.
03-12-2014, 07:38 PM
#101
Agreed. it is aggervating though to have "paid members" posting misleading comments, just like the point to be made for people reading later on so if nothing else they will have a better understanding of the wastegate and its operations. especially if someone is new and is trying to solve possible issues with their wastegate. it helps to have a proper understanding so they can test things in a safe manor. thats really all im doing here.
03-12-2014, 07:42 PM
#102
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Put your ego in your back pocket and move on. It's not worth your time to try and prove your point. The people reading this thread can very easily figure out what the answer is.
03-12-2014, 07:43 PM
#103
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on a stock wastegate
This thread is very comical lol, just like paulyy thinking if he clamps his wastegates feed line he won’t over boost. If you don’t send boost pressure the wastegate, it doesn’t open enough to regulate boost properly creating over boost or a condition where the turbo will boost as high as it physically can. vice versa, if you run a direct line to the main port (j pipe to wg )it will run at the spring rate.
Pauerman, you sold wastegates for years. care to post your thoughts on my above statement.
This thread is very comical lol, just like paulyy thinking if he clamps his wastegates feed line he won’t over boost. If you don’t send boost pressure the wastegate, it doesn’t open enough to regulate boost properly creating over boost or a condition where the turbo will boost as high as it physically can. vice versa, if you run a direct line to the main port (j pipe to wg )it will run at the spring rate.
Pauerman, you sold wastegates for years. care to post your thoughts on my above statement.
I agree with Reno - time to let it go.
03-12-2014, 07:47 PM
#104
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Basic waste gate knowledge can be found here (loose seat is not normal) : http://home.howstuffworks.com/toilet.htm
because it is a technological marvel
03-12-2014, 07:55 PM
#105
lol, I blame the horse he was looking at me funny. Joking aside this is true.