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VW/Audi 07K (2.5L 20V I5) Swap Thread

 
Old 01-30-2019, 12:00 PM
  #886  
alxdgr8
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Originally Posted by hinton View Post


I would prefer to keep the TB cable driven and not mess with fitting a drive by wire throttle pedal. I like the OEM 944 bottom hinged pedal!

We we could always look at using a fox body mustang TB. They are cable driven, have a TPS, some have provisions for IAC if needed, available in multiple sizes and really cost effective.

https://www.americanmuscle.com/sr-75mm-tb-8693.html
Electric throttle would make for a much better traction control system vs just cutting timing/fuel. You can keep the stock 944 pedal and use a later VW or D2 Audi throttle potentiometer as they are cable driven and easy to mount. Most standalone ECUs should be able to handle that as an input
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Old 01-30-2019, 12:02 PM
  #887  
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Originally Posted by 993 Dream View Post
I think my post had to be approved by a moderator or something so it showed up well after the time stamp. Although it points toward the firewall I thought there might be room to fit a pipe if it sat parallel with the cylinder head, but its always hard to judge when you're just looking at the pictures. If there isn't enough room then it looks like we will have to go the custom route (either the Webber flange or modifying a cast 1.8t flange). At one point Issam told me he was working on a cast flange for the 07k but I haven't heard any updates. Might be work asking though.
Yeah, I've been asking him. Nothing yet.
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Old 01-30-2019, 12:12 PM
  #888  
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maybe youve seen this, but this guy just made his own "rear head port" piece with an AN fitting welded on.
http://forum.irozmotorsport.com/view...t=915&start=50

he has a lot more room though, but maybe a simple elbow would fit the 944?

alternatively...what's the ID of the coolant port coming out of the head?
i wonder if it could be tapped to an NPT size and just use a street elbow...
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Old 01-30-2019, 12:19 PM
  #889  
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Originally Posted by alxdgr8 View Post
Electric throttle would make for a much better traction control system vs just cutting timing/fuel. You can keep the stock 944 pedal and use a later VW or D2 Audi throttle potentiometer as they are cable driven and easy to mount. Most standalone ECUs should be able to handle that as an input
Good idea with the Audi throttle cable pot. That could be a good option down the road. I'm still going to incorporate throttle cable bracket mounting features onto the intake.

Do you see any reason why I shouldn't have SPA drill and tap the first 20 or so manifolds to fit the VR6 and 07K throttle body bolt pattern? Seems to me that the 997TT throttle body will not be necessary (or desirable) for 99% of us. Issam disagrees, but I guess he's a one-percenter. :-)
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Old 01-30-2019, 01:19 PM
  #890  
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Originally Posted by alxdgr8 View Post
Electric throttle would make for a much better traction control system vs just cutting timing/fuel. You can keep the stock 944 pedal and use a later VW or D2 Audi throttle potentiometer as they are cable driven and easy to mount. Most standalone ECUs should be able to handle that as an input
I know what you mean from an electronics standpoint.... aren't the plugs on the VR6 TB hooked up to a potentiometer of some sort within the assembly?
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Old 01-30-2019, 04:09 PM
  #891  
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Originally Posted by senior_squishy View Post
I know what you mean from an electronics standpoint.... aren't the plugs on the VR6 TB hooked up to a potentiometer of some sort within the assembly?
Alex is talking about measuring the throttle pedal position by attaching a potentiometer to the 944 throttle cable. The standalone ECU would have to read this signal and then command the motorized 07K throttle body to move. So, that's two signal interfaces to work out with the standalone ECU.
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Old 01-30-2019, 10:22 PM
  #892  
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Originally Posted by vt951 View Post
Alex is talking about measuring the throttle pedal position by attaching a potentiometer to the 944 throttle cable. The standalone ECU would have to read this signal and then command the motorized 07K throttle body to move. So, that's two signal interfaces to work out with the standalone ECU.
Right, I see what you're saying.
Pedal cable to the wheel, wheel axle attached to the pot, wire from pot to the ECU, wire from the ECU to the 07K throttle body. Got it.
Think we could use the 944 TB wheel as an attach point, or do these pots already have those? Part numbers would be amazing

Edit: This one is wicked expensive, but think it could work?
EV West Billet Aluminum Throttle Potentiometer
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Old 01-30-2019, 10:58 PM
  #893  
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Originally Posted by senior_squishy View Post
Right, I see what you're saying.
Pedal cable to the wheel, wheel axle attached to the pot, wire from pot to the ECU, wire from the ECU to the 07K throttle body. Got it.
Think we could use the 944 TB wheel as an attach point, or do these pots already have those? Part numbers would be amazing

Edit: This one is wicked expensive, but think it could work?
EV West Billet Aluminum Throttle Potentiometer
Mmm, that one is nice! There is an OEM option from the Honda Accord as well (link below). Performance Electronics ECUís donít have this functionality right now, although they are actively working on it using GM and Honda pedal setups.

https://www.carparts.com/details/Hon...E&gclsrc=aw.ds
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Old 01-31-2019, 08:08 AM
  #894  
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Originally Posted by senior_squishy View Post
Right, I see what you're saying.
Pedal cable to the wheel, wheel axle attached to the pot, wire from pot to the ECU, wire from the ECU to the 07K throttle body. Got it.
Think we could use the 944 TB wheel as an attach point, or do these pots already have those? Part numbers would be amazing

Edit: This one is wicked expensive, but think it could work?
EV West Billet Aluminum Throttle Potentiometer
Oh, I think I see what you were saying now about the VR6 TB... use that as the potentiometer for pedal position? Sorry for correcting you.

Personally, I think Iím starting with cable throttle. I may or may not switch to DBW later using the setup that PE develops. More fun on track without traction control anyway...
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Old 01-31-2019, 08:27 AM
  #895  
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Originally Posted by vt951 View Post


Oh, I think I see what you were saying now about the VR6 TB... use that as the potentiometer for pedal position? Sorry for correcting you.

Personally, I think Iím starting with cable throttle. I may or may not switch to DBW later using the setup that PE develops. More fun on track without traction control anyway...
Yeah, pretty much. Except like Alex said, it would be harder to control the rpm for traction control with the throttle boddy where the drive mechanism for the vr6 is hard attatched to the cable. I don't mind not having traction control in trade for a more simple setup (at first). I'll make up a sketch of how I see both systems later
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Old 01-31-2019, 02:44 PM
  #896  
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Default Throttle Setups

Right, so here's how I see our options to control the vroomz from the engine.
(This will probably be a long post, so I apologize in advance)

Option 1:
Stock 944 gas pedal
Throttle potentiometer to measure pedal position.
Stock 07k Throttle Body
ECU set to accept voltage readings from two different places.

Benefits:
Ability to have ideal traction control by shutting the throttle, restricting air into the engine.
If anything electrical fails, the throttle will shut, keeping you safe
If your 07k came with the intake assembly, only the potentiometer is needed to be bought.

Downsides:
Throttle Potentiometers can get expensive.
The wiring and input tune could become complicated.
Mounting the potentiometer would need a separate bracket to hold it, and mount the throttle cable in place


Option 2:
Stock 944 gas pedal
VR6 cable driven throttle body (same bolt pattern as 07K)
ECU set to receive input from ECU from only one place.


Benefits:
Simple for controlling RPM
Everything is bolt-in (for the most part)
Stock throttle cable can be used if Alan designs a bracket

Downsides:
A new Throttle Body will have to be purchased
Traction control would have to be done by limiting spark, fuel, or most likely both. While most aftermarket ECU's can do this, it's really just preference.
(My 2001 4Runner has a cable to the TB and the traction control works.... a little too well XD)


Option 3: (standard throttle by wire)
Jetta, or some other type of electric gas pedal
07K Throttle Body
ECU set to receive input from one place and then sent it to another.



Benefits:
Refer to (most of) the benefits from Option 1
Pre-loaded ECU from Performance Engineering (@hinton ?) for simplicity

Downsides:
You'll pretty much be forced to cut a hole into the floor of your car, and then either weld up a mounting bracket and/or drill holes to accept the new pedal.


(If I'm mistaken in any way at all, on any of these, feel free to correct me.)

My vote personally is for option 2. Simplicity, ability to use stock parts that are for the most part "drop-in", and affordability have me sold. I don't think cutting fuel and spark for traction control is that bad of an idea, since its already proven to work on cars on the road already, and the inputs/outputs are all there.
What do y'all think?
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Old 01-31-2019, 02:49 PM
  #897  
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Originally Posted by senior_squishy View Post
Right, so here's how I see our options to control the vroomz from the engine.
(This will probably be a long post, so I apologize in advance)

Option 1:
Stock 944 gas pedal
Throttle potentiometer to measure pedal position.
Stock 07k Throttle Body
ECU set to accept voltage readings from two different places.

Benefits:
Ability to have ideal traction control by shutting the throttle, restricting air into the engine.
If anything electrical fails, the throttle will shut, keeping you safe
If your 07k came with the intake assembly, only the potentiometer is needed to be bought.

Downsides:
Throttle Potentiometers can get expensive.
The wiring and input tune could become complicated.
Mounting the potentiometer would need a separate bracket to hold it, and mount the throttle cable in place


Option 2:
Stock 944 gas pedal
VR6 cable driven throttle body (same bolt pattern as 07K)
ECU set to receive input from ECU from only one place.


Benefits:
Simple for controlling RPM
Everything is bolt-in (for the most part)
Stock throttle cable can be used if Alan designs a bracket

Downsides:
A new Throttle Body will have to be purchased
Traction control would have to be done by limiting spark, fuel, or most likely both. While most aftermarket ECU's can do this, it's really just preference.
(My 2001 4Runner has a cable to the TB and the traction control works.... a little too well XD)


Option 3: (standard throttle by wire)
Jetta, or some other type of electric gas pedal
07K Throttle Body
ECU set to receive input from one place and then sent it to another.



Benefits:
Refer to (most of) the benefits from Option 1
Pre-loaded ECU from Performance Engineering (@hinton ?) for simplicity

Downsides:
You'll pretty much be forced to cut a hole into the floor of your car, and then either weld up a mounting bracket and/or drill holes to accept the new pedal.


(If I'm mistaken in any way at all, on any of these, feel free to correct me.)

My vote personally is for option 2. Simplicity, ability to use stock parts that are for the most part "drop-in", and affordability have me sold. I don't think cutting fuel and spark for traction control is that bad of an idea, since its already proven to work on cars on the road already, and the inputs/outputs are all there.
What do y'all think?
#2 would be my vote as well. Iíll see if I can get one of the PE engineers to chime in.
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Old 01-31-2019, 03:16 PM
  #898  
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Originally Posted by hinton View Post
#2 would be my vote as well. I’ll see if I can get one of the PE engineers to chime in.
Thanks, Mike.
If you can, ask them about Idle control as well. I know the VR6 has some sort of an actuator for when there isn't any force on the cable, and the pinout that was posted a couple times a while ago shows a place for it.
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Old 01-31-2019, 03:28 PM
  #899  
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...wouldn't traction control require wheel speed sensors tied into the ECU too?
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Old 01-31-2019, 03:34 PM
  #900  
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Originally Posted by V2Rocket View Post
...wouldn't traction control require wheel speed sensors tied into the ECU too?
Apparently there's a speed sensor on the transmission that goes to the MPG gauge on early cars, and later cars with ABS has that VSS wire to the speedo.... I think 🤔
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