Duke

I'm not really planning to switch from the 944/968 engine platform in my race car - but just for fun show me the options.
The YES-sayers keep on raving about this as the holy grail for power at a low cost. I've been looking around but to be honest I really don't see the USP's.

The total cost for say a 450 crank hp LS conversion is not cheaper than building a 450 crank hp 944/968 engine.

So if I would want a 500 rwhp LS engine with dry sump and all the conversion bits - what do I need? As far as I can see that would cost 15-20k.
So I'm not really getting the "cheap" side of a conversion. Or am I missing something?

I'm genuinely not trying to bash the conversions. I just want to cover every option. Let's just say I'm also investigating another legendary engine family with 5 cylinder not far from these cars birthplace

Paulyy

the 5 cylinder would be a good option, love that engine!!

but for argument sake.. A friend of mine has a LS1 with an off the shelf midrange (between mild and wild) cam, Standalone (not sure what brand), a GT4202, turbosmart 38mm and some sort of exhaust (IICR it was to small) and pushed just over 400rwkw on our australian dynos, so roughly 540 rwhp on either 7 or 9 psi. standard bottom end.

Obviously you will want to change the bottom end if you go to the boosted option.

Thom

If you can wait until next year someone I know may able to give you first hand feedback with this. I am not aware of already-existing conversions running such an engine with a turbocharger.

Duke

Yes they can obviously make a lot of power those engines But I would never do a boosted V8, too much weight.

So my post is directed to anyone that have knowledge about both LS-engines and conversions. Basically 500+ rwhp, dry sump and conversion parts. Show me the cost.

Duke

I'm only aware of one conversion, but it didn't retain the transaxle so it's not really relevant.

Is a friend of yours planning a 20vt conversion?

Thom

It's already in the pipework. The conversion should hopefully be complete sometimes in Spring.

Dubai944

Seems to me that most of the V8 converts who jump up at every opportunity to harp on about the benefits don't seriously race cars. For a road car it seems like a no brainer, and easy to get similar or better power for less cost, but even doing a lot of DE track days or sprints is hardly racing. Interestingly the ones who actually do race with their V8s obviously love them, but are rarely the ones making the silly blanket statements. I think they realise that it costs a lot more to prep a reliable race engine than do a road going V8 conversion.

I love the idea, but the cost of a properly prepping a V8 for racing that will survive a race season has got to be at least similar to what it costs to prep a 4 cylinder Porsche motor if you are only semi serious. Heck, the V8 Supercar guys spend $130000 on an engine and need several to get through a season....

blade7

Does the LS need to be dry sumped ?.

Duke

For sure if it's going into a race car. The LS-engines are by no means fail safe and if you're looking at matching a dry sumped 3.0l 16v turbo with an LS-setup you're looking at over 20k USD.

blade7

Or just go 4 cylinder.

95ONE

They have had more than a few bearing failures during road races also. So dry sumped is preferred.

Duke, honestly, if you want more than 450 hp, the cost goes up exponentially. It's just that the 400 hp version is truly cheap and extremely reliable. The stock V8 computer is is extremely programmable and also extremely cheap and easy to do so with the same reliable stock sensors. You get to bypass all the set up and signal issues as with a stand alone. With the Porsche motor, it's not cheap to hit 400whp and pretty much guarantees a blown headgasket every other event. That's where the payoff is. But as you creep toward 450whp in the V8, cost per hp rises sharply. To get over the 450whp mark, costs skyrocket. So the truly sweet spot with this motor is around 400whp with lower cost.

Used motor and ECU = $2500. Install kit = $4K Install cost is $2000K Custom parts for 400whp. $2000 (cam, intake, headers and tune) = $10,500 for reliable everyday strong power.

THEN, the real benefit is on the back side... IF for some reason that motor blows... $2500 and you're up and running again full strength. It's worth it to install with no worries about reliability every time you start her up and go beat on it day in and out.

Dry sump.. The Dry sump kits vary in price, but the cost to dry sump the V8 and the 4cyl is right about the exact same, so I left that out of the equations. They're equally expensive and beneficial.

One additional argument that comes from someone who has been on the road course with naturally aspirated cars vs boosted. V8's are just more consistent. What the hell do I mean by that!? I mean every time.. EVERY TIME you put your foot down at any certain RPM, you will ALWAYS have the same amount of torque and power. I used my ears to know how to feather the throttle. With a turbo car, you can get good at it, but won't always know if there's a "load" on a turbo charged motor or not. If I have to let off the gas with the turbo and get back on at say 4K rpm, I might not have the same power or "load" as I did at 4Krpm at the last corner. Especially true if you get a wheel off the track or two and need to get it back on in a hurry, or get a little sideways in a corner and can "steer" the car back in line with the gas pedal. It's an extra dimension I loved using with a naturally aspirated car that made me much more consistent and quicker. The boosted cars are a little more hit or miss. Not by a lot, but enough for me.

Thom

~$10,500 for a 400whp V8? That's a lot more than I expected.

Duke

Thanks Bruce, it pretty much sums up with the view I've gathered so far.
I need more power and a dry sump and going through used engines is not really an option for me and not that easily found in Sweden.

A brand new Mast Motorsport crate engine with 630 crank hp would be upwards 25K USD when everything is said and done and although that would be nice and warranty backed I might as well continue the 3.0l 16v turbo route.

Duke

It sure is a cheap hobby going around a few corners of tarmac

95ONE

That's just where so many get lost in the conversion. It just isn't as cheap as it seems.

- If you do all the work and piece part it together with Eric at TPC for the conversion, I'm sure you can get it all in there for much less. With a helluva buy at a junk yard, I'd say as cheaply as $4K if you're happy with around 300-350@ the wheels. Which is no slouch of course. So it certainly CAN be done. The extra power items can be added later. Doing this yourself is a clear advantage.

But if you don't do the work - or maybe a little, and want 400whp, you're still looking at something close to $10K or more. Start going north of 400whp and the costs rise sharply.