951's vs. modern
11-30-2011, 11:47 AM
#61
Drifting
I'm in the same camp as 333pg333. I compare on a cost basis. What does $20K get me, not stock to stock etc. I have an '88 951S and it can compete with all but the top dogs at our local course. The GT3s, GT2s, and GT3RS are not catchable. On the same day with similar driver experience, another RL'er in his GT3RS would run a low 94 second run and I could put down 96 to 98 second runs on similar R compound tires. We are well ahead of the S2000s.
The difference is in what compromises you have to make. The GT3RS runs hard and drives home with a beautiful interior and respectable ride. Half the time I have to limp home in a car with an old semi stripped interior and shocks that rattle my spine. The exhaust roars, the tires wear out fast, it's hot, but it's fast and it's cheap (relatively).
The difference is in what compromises you have to make. The GT3RS runs hard and drives home with a beautiful interior and respectable ride. Half the time I have to limp home in a car with an old semi stripped interior and shocks that rattle my spine. The exhaust roars, the tires wear out fast, it's hot, but it's fast and it's cheap (relatively).
11-30-2011, 06:41 PM
#62
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my modified Silver Rose took my bros 2007 Aston Martin Vantage no prob.
Rolling start there was no contest at all, I held back a bit so he didn't feel too bad.
From stop we ran out of "safe" road and were neck to neck.
I'd say now with a new clutch and flywheel, and all the leaks dealt with from a stop it would take the Aston no problem.
So yes, that is modified vs. stock, but that's prob a $70k+ difference for you either way.
Rolling start there was no contest at all, I held back a bit so he didn't feel too bad.
From stop we ran out of "safe" road and were neck to neck.
I'd say now with a new clutch and flywheel, and all the leaks dealt with from a stop it would take the Aston no problem.
So yes, that is modified vs. stock, but that's prob a $70k+ difference for you either way.
03-06-2012, 04:39 AM
#63
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Thread Starter
Update
I decided to install the Escort Cup coils, new bushings from Paragon, BTW great service from Jason there, I've only had the chance to burn up some back roads recently. So far I can feel that the car has transformed to something I am not familiar with and I've owned the car since 1996. SO much tighter and flatter in the corners. It looks like I now have a go kart handling car too. Needless to say I am very excited about the track day on Saturday. I doubt i can run the Rcomps due to rain forecast. But I will bring my Laptimer and GoPro
Last edited by mr965; 03-06-2012 at 01:44 PM. Reason: edit
03-09-2012, 07:54 PM
#65
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If I remember right, the difference is about $150.
The M030 transmit a lot more shock into the chassis. I could feel a huge difference on non-perfect roads. I thought, bearings or M030...I decided M030 for street use.
-Dana
03-09-2012, 10:58 PM
#66
Race Director
Its a 2.0 direct injection boxer motor making 200HP. Shared with the BRZ Subaru which shares the same chassis as the FT86. Both RWD.
03-11-2012, 01:37 PM
#67
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I am with JustinL in terms of respecting what these 25-year old cars can do on the DE track with modern cars. At Watkins Glen, my 117K mile '87 can keep up with pre-2006 Z06s and GT3s. GT2s, 2006+ Z06s, and Cup Cars fly by and I enjoy listening to their engines as they pass. Caymen Interseries cars also are impressive as they go by, especially in packs chasing each other but those guys are pushing much harder than your typical DE guy. I am guessing that well driven GT3s would smoke me but I don't get a chance to run with them much as most event managers will only put 951s in the slower run group at advanced events.
Its also interesting that all that is old is new again. BWM, Audi, Mazda, Kia/Hundai and others are all featuring new versions of an inline four cylinder turbo.
Its also interesting that all that is old is new again. BWM, Audi, Mazda, Kia/Hundai and others are all featuring new versions of an inline four cylinder turbo.
03-11-2012, 02:56 PM
#68
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Run group is more about experience than car.
03-11-2012, 04:26 PM
#69
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In 2009, I was looking to buy a used sports car and was looking at used 350Z's and S2000's. What I found was these cars handled great with a nice stiff chassis, but the rest of the car felt very fragile, some with low mileage showed syncros were were going, so how would this car be as it ages? I started looking at older cars and and most low mileage 944 turbos still felt like like I remember driving them when they first came out (yes I am that old, 58 years old); solid like a typical German car. I figured the difference in cost of a newer sports car I could put into the suspension. I found a clean low mileage 86 Turbo with 48K miles that already had M473 Koni suspension and Weltmeister bars and late offset Fikse 17" wheels with spacers. The car handled so so and was not happy with turn in with the wheel spacers. I later installed Bilstein Cup suspension, 88S spindles and lower control arms (removes the wheel spacers reqired with late offset wheels), Elephant Racing firmer rubber bushings (as I planned to use it more for street than track); removed the torsion bars and solid mounted the torsion bar housing; big black calipers and 993 TT rotors. I would say the car handles fantastic and easily matches a current 350Z's handling and rides a little harsher than my 2012 GTI and braking is fantastic considering it does not have ABS; and it could be better on the track with better pads and rubber. It does have the"Cool" factor of being a 25 year old classic as opposed to the boy racer image of new cars like the 350Z and S2000.
03-12-2012, 05:57 PM
#71
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You would hope so. However, when doing all these 'stock for stock' comparisons, a lot of time people neglect to realize that the 25yr stock car comparison means new bushings/bearings/springs/wear items. You want to compare stock for stock, how the car felt/performed when it was released, not just sat for 25 years with 45k miles on it...
03-12-2012, 11:57 PM
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OK. I'll add a story to the 951 myth.
A few years ago when I was working for PCNA, I organized a number of track events with the Boxster Spyder at PCA DEs to support that vehicle's launch. The first such event was at Mid Ohio, April 2010. We did 6 tracks total, also including Road ATL, Homestead, Fontana, Texas Motor Speedway, and Autobahn CC after Parade.
A few things surprised me when I talked to my two pro drivers and viewed the hours and hours of video I took. (It goes without mention that the guys were passing 997 GT3s and Turbos in beginner run groups--this is as it should be for proper learning/safety, etc. I respect the guys who drive their limits, not those of their cars...)
1) At the first event, at Mid Ohio, the Boxster Spyder with a professional driver was able to keep up with a few 996 GT3s driven by PCA instructors, at least one with no license plates, both on slicks. When I say kept up with, I mean lap over lap. In the more technical sections the Spyders caught the GT3s, but GT3s pulled a little (1-3 car lengths) on the front straight. This repeated at each venue--what one would think of as class above cars were consistenly surprised by the pro-driven Boxster Spyders. This anecdote should contextualize how fast the Boxster Spyder with PDK and a great driver are--think transitive property of congruence. Actually, now that I think about it, it's not so surprising. The Spyder is only giving up 60 or so HP to the 996 GT3, is lighter, more balanced, and has PDK, which is itself worth a few seconds at a decent length track.
2) Through the whole event--all 6 track weekends, the only cars the instructors ever mentioned as being surprisingly faster were 951s. The first was a lister, whom I never really met but have seen consistently here--I think his name was Dan, he had an '86, Graphite Grey (same as my car). That was the Ohio event. A second was consistently mentioned at the Fontucky California event. Both were well set up cars with good drivers. That's not to say that there weren't well driven 997 GT3s or Turbos that were faster, just that it wasn't noteworthy...
In any case, the Boxster Spyder with PDK, like any modern Porsche, in the hands of a professional (not just a good driver, but one good enough to get paid to teach at the Porsche school, one with years of actual race experience) driver who is intimately familiar with a track, is a very competent combination. And I've personally seen this exact combination kept up with or passed by a few 951s, at least one that drove to the track. So to answer the question, "Can a 951 run with a modern sports car?", the answer is in my opinion unequivocally yes. How to get there? Equal amounts car prep and driver skill--both are necessary, neither by itself sufficient.
Tim
A few years ago when I was working for PCNA, I organized a number of track events with the Boxster Spyder at PCA DEs to support that vehicle's launch. The first such event was at Mid Ohio, April 2010. We did 6 tracks total, also including Road ATL, Homestead, Fontana, Texas Motor Speedway, and Autobahn CC after Parade.
A few things surprised me when I talked to my two pro drivers and viewed the hours and hours of video I took. (It goes without mention that the guys were passing 997 GT3s and Turbos in beginner run groups--this is as it should be for proper learning/safety, etc. I respect the guys who drive their limits, not those of their cars...)
1) At the first event, at Mid Ohio, the Boxster Spyder with a professional driver was able to keep up with a few 996 GT3s driven by PCA instructors, at least one with no license plates, both on slicks. When I say kept up with, I mean lap over lap. In the more technical sections the Spyders caught the GT3s, but GT3s pulled a little (1-3 car lengths) on the front straight. This repeated at each venue--what one would think of as class above cars were consistenly surprised by the pro-driven Boxster Spyders. This anecdote should contextualize how fast the Boxster Spyder with PDK and a great driver are--think transitive property of congruence. Actually, now that I think about it, it's not so surprising. The Spyder is only giving up 60 or so HP to the 996 GT3, is lighter, more balanced, and has PDK, which is itself worth a few seconds at a decent length track.
2) Through the whole event--all 6 track weekends, the only cars the instructors ever mentioned as being surprisingly faster were 951s. The first was a lister, whom I never really met but have seen consistently here--I think his name was Dan, he had an '86, Graphite Grey (same as my car). That was the Ohio event. A second was consistently mentioned at the Fontucky California event. Both were well set up cars with good drivers. That's not to say that there weren't well driven 997 GT3s or Turbos that were faster, just that it wasn't noteworthy...
In any case, the Boxster Spyder with PDK, like any modern Porsche, in the hands of a professional (not just a good driver, but one good enough to get paid to teach at the Porsche school, one with years of actual race experience) driver who is intimately familiar with a track, is a very competent combination. And I've personally seen this exact combination kept up with or passed by a few 951s, at least one that drove to the track. So to answer the question, "Can a 951 run with a modern sports car?", the answer is in my opinion unequivocally yes. How to get there? Equal amounts car prep and driver skill--both are necessary, neither by itself sufficient.
Tim
Last edited by Tim-C.; 03-13-2012 at 12:03 AM. Reason: grammar
03-12-2012, 11:59 PM
#73
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You would hope so. However, when doing all these 'stock for stock' comparisons, a lot of time people neglect to realize that the 25yr stock car comparison means new bushings/bearings/springs/wear items. You want to compare stock for stock, how the car felt/performed when it was released, not just sat for 25 years with 45k miles on it...
03-13-2012, 01:23 AM
#74
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OK. I'll add a story to the 951 myth.
A few years ago when I was working for PCNA, I organized a number of track events with the Boxster Spyder at PCA DEs to support that vehicle's launch. The first such event was at Mid Ohio, April 2010. We did 6 tracks total, also including Road ATL, Homestead, Fontana, Texas Motor Speedway, and Autobahn CC after Parade.
A few things surprised me when I talked to my two pro drivers and viewed the hours and hours of video I took. (It goes without mention that the guys were passing 997 GT3s and Turbos in beginner run groups--this is as it should be for proper learning/safety, etc. I respect the guys who drive their limits, not those of their cars...)
1) At the first event, at Mid Ohio, the Boxster Spyder with a professional driver was able to keep up with a few 996 GT3s driven by PCA instructors, at least one with no license plates, both on slicks. When I say kept up with, I mean lap over lap. In the more technical sections the Spyders caught the GT3s, but GT3s pulled a little (1-3 car lengths) on the front straight. This repeated at each venue--what one would think of as class above cars were consistenly surprised by the pro-driven Boxster Spyders. This anecdote should contextualize how fast the Boxster Spyder with PDK and a great driver are--think transitive property of congruence. Actually, now that I think about it, it's not so surprising. The Spyder is only giving up 60 or so HP to the 996 GT3, is lighter, more balanced, and has PDK, which is itself worth a few seconds at a decent length track.
2) Through the whole event--all 6 track weekends, the only cars the instructors ever mentioned as being surprisingly faster were 951s. The first was a lister, whom I never really met but have seen consistently here--I think his name was Dan, he had an '86, Graphite Grey (same as my car). That was the Ohio event. A second was consistently mentioned at the Fontucky California event. Both were well set up cars with good drivers. That's not to say that there weren't well driven 997 GT3s or Turbos that were faster, just that it wasn't noteworthy...
In any case, the Boxster Spyder with PDK, like any modern Porsche, in the hands of a professional (not just a good driver, but one good enough to get paid to teach at the Porsche school, one with years of actual race experience) driver who is intimately familiar with a track, is a very competent combination. And I've personally seen this exact combination kept up with or passed by a few 951s, at least one that drove to the track. So to answer the question, "Can a 951 run with a modern sports car?", the answer is in my opinion unequivocally yes. How to get there? Equal amounts car prep and driver skill--both are necessary, neither by itself sufficient.
Tim
A few years ago when I was working for PCNA, I organized a number of track events with the Boxster Spyder at PCA DEs to support that vehicle's launch. The first such event was at Mid Ohio, April 2010. We did 6 tracks total, also including Road ATL, Homestead, Fontana, Texas Motor Speedway, and Autobahn CC after Parade.
A few things surprised me when I talked to my two pro drivers and viewed the hours and hours of video I took. (It goes without mention that the guys were passing 997 GT3s and Turbos in beginner run groups--this is as it should be for proper learning/safety, etc. I respect the guys who drive their limits, not those of their cars...)
1) At the first event, at Mid Ohio, the Boxster Spyder with a professional driver was able to keep up with a few 996 GT3s driven by PCA instructors, at least one with no license plates, both on slicks. When I say kept up with, I mean lap over lap. In the more technical sections the Spyders caught the GT3s, but GT3s pulled a little (1-3 car lengths) on the front straight. This repeated at each venue--what one would think of as class above cars were consistenly surprised by the pro-driven Boxster Spyders. This anecdote should contextualize how fast the Boxster Spyder with PDK and a great driver are--think transitive property of congruence. Actually, now that I think about it, it's not so surprising. The Spyder is only giving up 60 or so HP to the 996 GT3, is lighter, more balanced, and has PDK, which is itself worth a few seconds at a decent length track.
2) Through the whole event--all 6 track weekends, the only cars the instructors ever mentioned as being surprisingly faster were 951s. The first was a lister, whom I never really met but have seen consistently here--I think his name was Dan, he had an '86, Graphite Grey (same as my car). That was the Ohio event. A second was consistently mentioned at the Fontucky California event. Both were well set up cars with good drivers. That's not to say that there weren't well driven 997 GT3s or Turbos that were faster, just that it wasn't noteworthy...
In any case, the Boxster Spyder with PDK, like any modern Porsche, in the hands of a professional (not just a good driver, but one good enough to get paid to teach at the Porsche school, one with years of actual race experience) driver who is intimately familiar with a track, is a very competent combination. And I've personally seen this exact combination kept up with or passed by a few 951s, at least one that drove to the track. So to answer the question, "Can a 951 run with a modern sports car?", the answer is in my opinion unequivocally yes. How to get there? Equal amounts car prep and driver skill--both are necessary, neither by itself sufficient.
Tim
For a box stock car on street tires it was amazingly fast, even when taking the driver's high skill level into account.
03-13-2012, 01:36 AM
#75
Instructor
I have an 88 951S and after driving many, many super cars in my 38 Yrs, I love this one. Granted, I have a K&N, MAF, K27/8, big Injectors, chip, 3 Inch exhaust with no cat, and a few thousand bucks worth of lindsey goodys. I wouldnt trade the 951S for anything. And if you still have a question, just think...
Driving a honda is like being a champ in the special olympics... You may be a champ.... But you're still.....
Driving a honda is like being a champ in the special olympics... You may be a champ.... But you're still.....