951's vs. modern
11-28-2011, 12:42 PM
#16
Nordschleife Master
Do you have a turbo s or an 89 because the regular turbo is a bus compared to the s. When people compare another cars's handling to a regular turbo its not fair because the regular turbo was set up for comfort and are crap around a track but they make much better daily drivers. They watered down the first turbos to make them appealing for daily consumption but now it is normal for new cars to leave the factory with stiff suspension set up more for the track or have electronic gizmos to offer both. I miss my 87 for those reasons but my 89 is a different car, they are not even comparable around a track.
And if we are talking equally fresh 944 turbo suspensions, yes the M030 equipped car will be sharper than the base turbos, but if you have an M474 car, and a M030 car the comparison would be much closer.
11-28-2011, 01:04 PM
#17
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Do you have a turbo s or an 89 because the regular turbo is a bus compared to the s. When people compare another cars's handling to a regular turbo its not fair because the regular turbo was set up for comfort and are crap around a track but they make much better daily drivers. They watered down the first turbos to make them appealing for daily consumption but now it is normal for new cars to leave the factory with stiff suspension set up more for the track or have electronic gizmos to offer both. I miss my 87 for those reasons but my 89 is a different car, they are not even comparable around a track.
my .02 cents
11-28-2011, 02:07 PM
#18
How much is a Honda S2000 going for these days? Put 20000$ into a 10000$ 944 turbo and there will not be many cars that are faster.
Also, ask your Honda friend to race with 4 people in the car and with four golf bags in the trunk.... OOOPS impossible in the S2000.
Also, ask your Honda friend to race with 4 people in the car and with four golf bags in the trunk.... OOOPS impossible in the S2000.
11-28-2011, 02:10 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
The 944 was a brilliant car at the time and is still a good one, but it's a little ridiculous to expect and attempt to justify how it is superior to 15-20 years of engineering after it...
Mark
11-28-2011, 02:29 PM
#20
From my years of experience around these cars, I hold the opinion that a stock, well maintained 951 OR 944 offers far more capability as a car than most people offer as drivers. With the advancement of technology, the newer cars have become easier for lesser talented folks to drive faster, and it takes no skill at all to drive fast in a straight line, regardless of which platform you are talking about.
If you are having a problem keeping up with the newer cars, you are either picking poor battles (a 951 against a Viper in a straight line is asking to get beat) or you need to learn to drive better.
Having said that, yes, there are a multitude of modifications that you can make to a 951 to enhance various aspects of its performance. Almost all of us go the hp route first, as a chipset and cat bypass can get a pretty nice return for the investment. Beyond that, throwing cubic money *might* get you cubic results, but I have seen as many folks disappointed by having a finicky car thats harder to drive well after the mods, so you have to pick very carefully. Even then, you are still playing catch up to 20+ years of engineering advancements.
Cars built today are generally better than cars built 20 years ago. They *should* be. That doesn't mean they are more fun, nor do they offer (particularly for a street driven car) such a huge performance advantage that any 944/951 will hang its head in shame if properly driven.
If you are having a problem keeping up with the newer cars, you are either picking poor battles (a 951 against a Viper in a straight line is asking to get beat) or you need to learn to drive better.
Having said that, yes, there are a multitude of modifications that you can make to a 951 to enhance various aspects of its performance. Almost all of us go the hp route first, as a chipset and cat bypass can get a pretty nice return for the investment. Beyond that, throwing cubic money *might* get you cubic results, but I have seen as many folks disappointed by having a finicky car thats harder to drive well after the mods, so you have to pick very carefully. Even then, you are still playing catch up to 20+ years of engineering advancements.
Cars built today are generally better than cars built 20 years ago. They *should* be. That doesn't mean they are more fun, nor do they offer (particularly for a street driven car) such a huge performance advantage that any 944/951 will hang its head in shame if properly driven.
11-28-2011, 02:30 PM
#21
I dont really understand this question... can you make a 951 faster than an S2000? Sure you can make a 951 faster around a track... add power, add bigger tires, add better suspension... but if all were equal, the S2000 is vastly superior.
I'm no Honda fanboy, but as a function of the engineering and materials available fifteen years after the 951s were envisioned, the chassis of the S2000 is multitudes stiffer; even more importantly, the double wishbone front suspension on a Honda is _dramatically_ more effective than the relatively poor MacPherson strut 951 front end (which my E36 shares). (This is not to say that a MacPherson cannot work well, etc. but there is a reason that at the very highest levels of motorsport, all cars share a double wishbone style front end...)
Mark
I'm no Honda fanboy, but as a function of the engineering and materials available fifteen years after the 951s were envisioned, the chassis of the S2000 is multitudes stiffer; even more importantly, the double wishbone front suspension on a Honda is _dramatically_ more effective than the relatively poor MacPherson strut 951 front end (which my E36 shares). (This is not to say that a MacPherson cannot work well, etc. but there is a reason that at the very highest levels of motorsport, all cars share a double wishbone style front end...)
Mark
11-28-2011, 02:35 PM
#22
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Thread Starter
Mark, I agree. Can't compete with that much advancement in engineering. I may be able to compete in the straights but not too much in the turns.
I will however have a more comfortable drive home from the track..
I will however have a more comfortable drive home from the track..
11-28-2011, 02:45 PM
#23
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No offense, but if you are 5 sec a lap slower - the best way to close the gap is to improve your driving. 1 -2 sec a lap on the car, the rest is on you. A 951 with M030 or turbo S suspension along with basic engine mods should be able to dust off a S2000.
11-28-2011, 03:53 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Will not be able to find a direct comparison, because I do not know of any venue that has any 944 series cars classed in the same racing groups as Hondas. But looking at the results of the '11 NASA National Championships at Mid Ohio, The GTS-2 winning 944S2 ran a fast lap of 1:37.29 during the championship race. I found some S2000s that ran in the time trial classes, four of them posted fast laps of 1:37.34 to mid 1:38s. Again, not an absolute equal comparison, as rules for the GTS classes may vary somewhat from the Time Trial classes. But a quick read of the TT rules, looks like the TT cars are allowed various modifications (weight, suspension, some limited engine upgrades) that are in the same ballpark as mods allowed for the GTS 944s. The GTS-2 944S2s are pretty similar to the E-Stock PCA Club Race cars.
11-28-2011, 03:53 PM
#26
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BTW, a Boxster S or E46M3 or a S2000 will put a hurting on your S in a roadcourse given equal drivers, but turning a steering wheel is is alien to most forum posters, lol, most can't even drive straight , just go to a 1/4 mile track.......fact not fiction.
Most of those "races" on the street, DE or track you beat the driver not the car.
11-28-2011, 04:09 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Do you have a turbo s or an 89 because the regular turbo is a bus compared to the s. When people compare another cars's handling to a regular turbo its not fair because the regular turbo was set up for comfort and are crap around a track but they make much better daily drivers. They watered down the first turbos to make them appealing for daily consumption but now it is normal for new cars to leave the factory with stiff suspension set up more for the track or have electronic gizmos to offer both. I miss my 87 for those reasons but my 89 is a different car, they are not even comparable around a track.
This made my day
11-28-2011, 04:26 PM
#28
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PCA Club Racing makes the following classifications (for near equal performance allowing equal modifications):
99-04 Boxsters are in the same class w/ 944T's, S2's, & 968s, along w/ 911SC Euros and 3.2 Carreras.
00-04 Boxster S, 05-08 Boxsters, 07-08 Caymans are in the same class as 944TS's, S2 & 968 Firehawk/Clubsports, along w/ 964 C2s.
05-07 Boxster S, 09-11 Boxsters, 09-11 Caymans are in the same class as 944 Turbo Cup/Clubsports along w/ 964 RSAs, 993s and a few others.
Newer Boxster S and Cayman S cars are up 1 to 2 classes from any 944 series platform. They race against 964 Turbos, 993 RSs, 964 USA Cups, and various 996/997s.
And for an interesting comparing to the GTS-2 944S2 at the NASA Nationals, here is a GTS-3 class '00 Boxster S that ran a 0.9 sec faster lap that same wknd, for sale for $75k.
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=15894
99-04 Boxsters are in the same class w/ 944T's, S2's, & 968s, along w/ 911SC Euros and 3.2 Carreras.
00-04 Boxster S, 05-08 Boxsters, 07-08 Caymans are in the same class as 944TS's, S2 & 968 Firehawk/Clubsports, along w/ 964 C2s.
05-07 Boxster S, 09-11 Boxsters, 09-11 Caymans are in the same class as 944 Turbo Cup/Clubsports along w/ 964 RSAs, 993s and a few others.
Newer Boxster S and Cayman S cars are up 1 to 2 classes from any 944 series platform. They race against 964 Turbos, 993 RSs, 964 USA Cups, and various 996/997s.
And for an interesting comparing to the GTS-2 944S2 at the NASA Nationals, here is a GTS-3 class '00 Boxster S that ran a 0.9 sec faster lap that same wknd, for sale for $75k.
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ferrerid=15894
11-28-2011, 04:43 PM
#29
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11-28-2011, 04:44 PM
#30
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Thread Starter
I can compete with the stock s2000's but this particular one has aftermarket coils, exhaust, intake, r compound...