951's vs. modern
11-28-2011, 04:59 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
11-28-2011, 05:14 PM
#33
Advanced
Try some z-rated yokohama tires.low profile 45 series .225 width all the way around.when i put those on my car .it felt like a new car.barely any roll,sticks like a champ.you would have to force even a tire screech from them .im sure you will shave atleast half of your 5 seconds/good luck
11-28-2011, 05:17 PM
#34
Three Wheelin'
The main problem with the 944 is the basic body construction. 944's just aren't that rigid compared to modern cars. You can do whatever you want to the suspension, but you will never match the stiffness of a modern chasis.
11-28-2011, 05:58 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
How do you know this for a fact?? Do you know 'most' forum posters or own a crystal ball?
11-28-2011, 06:38 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
What kind of track is the local track? Is it technical like a Lime Rock, reward big power like a Watkins Glen, or both like VIR?
You've got a couple of options (assuming equal drivers of course) to be competitive with an S2000:
- Fresh koni's, M030 sways, fresh bushings, and stick with the r-compounds and you'll be competitive with him on a track like watkins glen. You won't stick with him in the corners but you'll make it up in the power sections.
- Coil-overs like KW V3's. You'll be competitive everywhere except very tight technical tracks.
- Hard core coil overs, monoball bushings, and drop some weight. This might get you on equal footing on tight technical tracks but I wouldn't count on it unless you drop a lot of weight. The S2000 is 2-300 lbs lighter than a 951.
Dollar for dollar a modern double wishbone and multi-link suspension will always outperform our macpherson strut and trailing arm setup. But that doesn't mean you can't get it to perform very well, and take advantage of engine power to make up the difference.
You've got a couple of options (assuming equal drivers of course) to be competitive with an S2000:
- Fresh koni's, M030 sways, fresh bushings, and stick with the r-compounds and you'll be competitive with him on a track like watkins glen. You won't stick with him in the corners but you'll make it up in the power sections.
- Coil-overs like KW V3's. You'll be competitive everywhere except very tight technical tracks.
- Hard core coil overs, monoball bushings, and drop some weight. This might get you on equal footing on tight technical tracks but I wouldn't count on it unless you drop a lot of weight. The S2000 is 2-300 lbs lighter than a 951.
Dollar for dollar a modern double wishbone and multi-link suspension will always outperform our macpherson strut and trailing arm setup. But that doesn't mean you can't get it to perform very well, and take advantage of engine power to make up the difference.
11-28-2011, 07:36 PM
#37
Intermediate
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Well because you own an 86 I understand your need to laugh.
In 1989 very few cars were faster around a track than a 944 turbo. To say that there is not a significant difference between an s and non s all other things being equal (ie both cars work as new) is kind of silly. Porsche knew what they were doing when they modified the car.
I never said that they could compete with more modern cars but I think the s has a chance with some cars. But I stand by my statement : a regular turbo is like a bus around a track compared to an s, they were set up for the street, the s was set up for the track.
In 1989 very few cars were faster around a track than a 944 turbo. To say that there is not a significant difference between an s and non s all other things being equal (ie both cars work as new) is kind of silly. Porsche knew what they were doing when they modified the car.
I never said that they could compete with more modern cars but I think the s has a chance with some cars. But I stand by my statement : a regular turbo is like a bus around a track compared to an s, they were set up for the street, the s was set up for the track.
11-28-2011, 09:59 PM
#39
Race Director
LOL @ you.... so you comparing modified vs stock ? Stock vs stock or modified vs modified that how this game is usually played.
BTW, a Boxster S or E46M3 or a S2000 will put a hurting on your S in a roadcourse given equal drivers, but turning a steering wheel is is alien to most forum posters, lol, most can't even drive straight , just go to a 1/4 mile track.......fact not fiction.
Most of those "races" on the street, DE or track you beat the driver not the car.
BTW, a Boxster S or E46M3 or a S2000 will put a hurting on your S in a roadcourse given equal drivers, but turning a steering wheel is is alien to most forum posters, lol, most can't even drive straight , just go to a 1/4 mile track.......fact not fiction.
Most of those "races" on the street, DE or track you beat the driver not the car.
What kind of track is the local track? Is it technical like a Lime Rock, reward big power like a Watkins Glen, or both like VIR?
You've got a couple of options (assuming equal drivers of course) to be competitive with an S2000:
- Fresh koni's, M030 sways, fresh bushings, and stick with the r-compounds and you'll be competitive with him on a track like watkins glen. You won't stick with him in the corners but you'll make it up in the power sections.
- Coil-overs like KW V3's. You'll be competitive everywhere except very tight technical tracks.
- Hard core coil overs, monoball bushings, and drop some weight. This might get you on equal footing on tight technical tracks but I wouldn't count on it unless you drop a lot of weight. The S2000 is 2-300 lbs lighter than a 951.
Dollar for dollar a modern double wishbone and multi-link suspension will always outperform our macpherson strut and trailing arm setup. But that doesn't mean you can't get it to perform very well, and take advantage of engine power to make up the difference.
You've got a couple of options (assuming equal drivers of course) to be competitive with an S2000:
- Fresh koni's, M030 sways, fresh bushings, and stick with the r-compounds and you'll be competitive with him on a track like watkins glen. You won't stick with him in the corners but you'll make it up in the power sections.
- Coil-overs like KW V3's. You'll be competitive everywhere except very tight technical tracks.
- Hard core coil overs, monoball bushings, and drop some weight. This might get you on equal footing on tight technical tracks but I wouldn't count on it unless you drop a lot of weight. The S2000 is 2-300 lbs lighter than a 951.
Dollar for dollar a modern double wishbone and multi-link suspension will always outperform our macpherson strut and trailing arm setup. But that doesn't mean you can't get it to perform very well, and take advantage of engine power to make up the difference.
11-29-2011, 12:22 AM
#41
Chassis design is a tradeoff between torsional rigidity and weight. Let the suspension do the work. If you have a chassis that flexes like crazy then you will never be able to acheive consistent, predictable, easily tunable handling. The effort engineers put into designing a car's suspension geometry is negated by a flimsy chassis when the anchoring points are moving relative to each other. But... it definitely is a tradeoff between rigidity and weight.
11-29-2011, 12:39 AM
#42
Race Director
S2000s are great cars, mine felt better than my 951 with bilstein escorts (IMHO). Fantastic engine/gearbox as well. Hand built alongside the NSX. It took me thousands to make my BMW M Coupe handle as well as the S2000 did on a stock suspension with an alignment.
11-29-2011, 02:11 AM
#43
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
What kind of track is the local track? Is it technical like a Lime Rock, reward big power like a Watkins Glen, or both like VIR?
You've got a couple of options (assuming equal drivers of course) to be competitive with an S2000:
- Fresh koni's, M030 sways, fresh bushings, and stick with the r-compounds and you'll be competitive with him on a track like watkins glen. You won't stick with him in the corners but you'll make it up in the power sections.
- Coil-overs like KW V3's. You'll be competitive everywhere except very tight technical tracks.
- Hard core coil overs, monoball bushings, and drop some weight. This might get you on equal footing on tight technical tracks but I wouldn't count on it unless you drop a lot of weight. The S2000 is 2-300 lbs lighter than a 951.
Dollar for dollar a modern double wishbone and multi-link suspension will always outperform our macpherson strut and trailing arm setup. But that doesn't mean you can't get it to perform very well, and take advantage of engine power to make up the difference.
You've got a couple of options (assuming equal drivers of course) to be competitive with an S2000:
- Fresh koni's, M030 sways, fresh bushings, and stick with the r-compounds and you'll be competitive with him on a track like watkins glen. You won't stick with him in the corners but you'll make it up in the power sections.
- Coil-overs like KW V3's. You'll be competitive everywhere except very tight technical tracks.
- Hard core coil overs, monoball bushings, and drop some weight. This might get you on equal footing on tight technical tracks but I wouldn't count on it unless you drop a lot of weight. The S2000 is 2-300 lbs lighter than a 951.
Dollar for dollar a modern double wishbone and multi-link suspension will always outperform our macpherson strut and trailing arm setup. But that doesn't mean you can't get it to perform very well, and take advantage of engine power to make up the difference.
11-29-2011, 02:14 AM
#44
Late Porkchops
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
You can see that the answer is yes. The 951 was of course more of a tourer and a daily car. I cant say about the S2000.
Yes that a 951 can be made to get right up there with the much newer S2000. Which is saying something right there. For a production car that is 26 years old to be able to be that close, or better a new car, that older car has to have something going for it. My wifes Infiniti M 37 S will put some smoke on some of these cars, including my 951. It can do it with AC going through the seat, the multi channel sat radio, all hands free comms, etc etc etc. And it is a gals car. But it is not a track car. And it is heavy. But most of all it does not have that feel to it of the 951.
It may take some mods and freshening on the 951, but in the end you will have a good car to run your buddies in. And also you will have an interesting older car all in one. And that is fun. Sure he might best you for a few laps and then you best him. When they are parked many folks will walk right by his though to see your car. The Honda will still be a Honda. That is not a bad thing and they are excellent cars, but that is just how it is. Heck I had mine at the track and a week later it won a pretty big car show. It kept up with my buddies Subaru, beat it when his brakes were gone, and then it outpaced his 240Z for the car show. And his is a good car. He said "Thats it. I am getting a Porsche."
When I had my 951 at the track a lot of guys came over to see it. Because they may never have seen a very good one. And they were curious too. There was a nice modded Nissan 350Z seeting next to me wiht suppossed 450 Hp. About 3 guys had a look at it. It was a fast car but in the tighther stuff the old 1986 951 could pull him up close. And I still have the 474 Konis on mine BTW. Next stop is more better suspension for me too !
One day I might get a 930 or even a new Porsche. But I like the long nose look of the 951. And it has great handling as we all know. Around the track I was much more comfortable with the 951 than a 911. So all that enters in to it too - for me anyway.
Yes that a 951 can be made to get right up there with the much newer S2000. Which is saying something right there. For a production car that is 26 years old to be able to be that close, or better a new car, that older car has to have something going for it. My wifes Infiniti M 37 S will put some smoke on some of these cars, including my 951. It can do it with AC going through the seat, the multi channel sat radio, all hands free comms, etc etc etc. And it is a gals car. But it is not a track car. And it is heavy. But most of all it does not have that feel to it of the 951.
It may take some mods and freshening on the 951, but in the end you will have a good car to run your buddies in. And also you will have an interesting older car all in one. And that is fun. Sure he might best you for a few laps and then you best him. When they are parked many folks will walk right by his though to see your car. The Honda will still be a Honda. That is not a bad thing and they are excellent cars, but that is just how it is. Heck I had mine at the track and a week later it won a pretty big car show. It kept up with my buddies Subaru, beat it when his brakes were gone, and then it outpaced his 240Z for the car show. And his is a good car. He said "Thats it. I am getting a Porsche."
When I had my 951 at the track a lot of guys came over to see it. Because they may never have seen a very good one. And they were curious too. There was a nice modded Nissan 350Z seeting next to me wiht suppossed 450 Hp. About 3 guys had a look at it. It was a fast car but in the tighther stuff the old 1986 951 could pull him up close. And I still have the 474 Konis on mine BTW. Next stop is more better suspension for me too !
One day I might get a 930 or even a new Porsche. But I like the long nose look of the 951. And it has great handling as we all know. Around the track I was much more comfortable with the 951 than a 911. So all that enters in to it too - for me anyway.
