Mahle, Arias, Woessner or JE pistons best?
10-10-2011, 06:49 PM
#76
Drifting
Just saw this post. I hope my flippant comment didn't offend. It was really directed at those who were saying it wasn't worth going to a big motor. As for building the motor myself, I did it as a learning experience -- wanted to understand the motor at a deeper level -- but obviously ended up with a less exotic motor than yours. (The next motor may be more competitive. 
)Absolutley didn't mean to suggest my motor was immune from post-start bugs (it wasn't) or that any high-performance build like yours is supposed to be perfect out of the box. And, agreed, Garrity is a good man for seeing this motor through so conscientiously!
)Absolutley didn't mean to suggest my motor was immune from post-start bugs (it wasn't) or that any high-performance build like yours is supposed to be perfect out of the box. And, agreed, Garrity is a good man for seeing this motor through so conscientiously!
10-10-2011, 08:07 PM
#77
The "dry sleeved motors" aren't really "dry". The factory bore is milled, and a steel sleeve is installed within the factory bore. There is still water flowing around the cylinder bores.
The "wet sleeve" doesn't use the factory bore, and an entire new bore is pressed into the factory alum block.
Both these processes allow you to use your piston of choice.
I used the www.uschrome.com Nicom bore coating process using the factory bores and piston of choice.
The "wet sleeve" doesn't use the factory bore, and an entire new bore is pressed into the factory alum block.
Both these processes allow you to use your piston of choice.
I used the www.uschrome.com Nicom bore coating process using the factory bores and piston of choice.
I know you know the difference, and this is not a knock on your knowledge, but this is how many think of both applications.
10-10-2011, 09:09 PM
#78
Three Wheelin'
By dry and wet, they mean weather or not the actual sleeve that is installed comes into contact with coolant. In a dry sleeve application, where the sleeve is inserted into the remaining bore of the original cylinder, it is not coming into contact with coolant, hence "dry" sleeve. Wet sleeves replace the entire cylinder, and come into direct contact with coolant, hence "wet" sleeve.
I know you know the difference, and this is not a knock on your knowledge, but this is how many think of both applications.
I know you know the difference, and this is not a knock on your knowledge, but this is how many think of both applications.
So George is yours a S2 or 968 block?
10-10-2011, 09:27 PM
#79
Three Wheelin'
Tom I don't think anybody is arguing that the bigger motors aren't worth doing! I think it more about understanding the different options for a bigger motor! Dry Sleeve,MID and the factory 3 liter motor.
Lot of choices and even stock bore and cylinder usually means shipping the block out of state for most of us.
Lot of choices and even stock bore and cylinder usually means shipping the block out of state for most of us.
10-10-2011, 11:59 PM
#80
Drifting
968 but they are basically identical. It doesn't matter which you use. Our motors have many years of experience using the Darton "dry" sleeve process.
The only Darton MID motors I've heard of being done with these motors is by Chris White.
The issue with NiCom coating is you have to ship your block to www.uschrome.com. It's an electroplating process that Porsche invented. Porsche called it Nikasil, and only Porsche can use the Nikasil trademark.
Those interested in the process or benefits, read this link. http://www.928motorsports.com/services/uschrome.php
The only Darton MID motors I've heard of being done with these motors is by Chris White.
The issue with NiCom coating is you have to ship your block to www.uschrome.com. It's an electroplating process that Porsche invented. Porsche called it Nikasil, and only Porsche can use the Nikasil trademark.
Those interested in the process or benefits, read this link. http://www.928motorsports.com/services/uschrome.php
10-11-2011, 12:09 AM
#82
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
10-11-2011, 12:22 AM
#83
Drifting
I meant Mahle. Porsche paid to trademark Nikasil. Mahle and Porsche are basically on the same team. I, at times, forget they are seperate companies.
Another neat shop out of Utah using Nikasil or NiCom with their billet alum 427 engine blocks. http://www.kirkhammotorsports.com/mfg/block_index.html
10-11-2011, 12:28 AM
#84
Drifting
Hi George,
As you may know Nikasil is a tough plating, but like everything else there is always down sides. One of the major downsides to Nikasil is when you use a batch of high sulphur content fuel. High Sulphur content will break up the Nikasil coating. BMW had some major problems with their engines a while back in their M60 V8's and their M52 6 cylinders that were Nikasil coated. BMW then replaced those engines with a combination of steel/ cast iron or Alusil Liners.
Lucky these days that most fuels are low in sulphur.
As for the OP we recommend Wossner. As Chris White has pointed out you can get them made exactly how you want them and they are alusil compatible.
We are using Wossner pistons (coated from Wossner to suit an alusil bore) in our turbo 16v 3.0ltr engine. so far we have done 5000kms, 2 track days and 2 motokana's.
Sean
As you may know Nikasil is a tough plating, but like everything else there is always down sides. One of the major downsides to Nikasil is when you use a batch of high sulphur content fuel. High Sulphur content will break up the Nikasil coating. BMW had some major problems with their engines a while back in their M60 V8's and their M52 6 cylinders that were Nikasil coated. BMW then replaced those engines with a combination of steel/ cast iron or Alusil Liners.
Lucky these days that most fuels are low in sulphur.
As for the OP we recommend Wossner. As Chris White has pointed out you can get them made exactly how you want them and they are alusil compatible.
We are using Wossner pistons (coated from Wossner to suit an alusil bore) in our turbo 16v 3.0ltr engine. so far we have done 5000kms, 2 track days and 2 motokana's.
Sean
10-11-2011, 12:57 AM
#85
Drifting
Hi George,
As you may know Nikasil is a tough plating, but like everything else there is always down sides. One of the major downsides to Nikasil is when you use a batch of high sulphur content fuel. High Sulphur content will break up the Nikasil coating. BMW had some major problems with their engines a while back in their M60 V8's and their M52 6 cylinders that were Nikasil coated. BMW then replaced those engines with a combination of steel/ cast iron or Alusil Liners.
Lucky these days that most fuels are low in sulphur.
As for the OP we recommend Wossner. As Chris White has pointed out you can get them made exactly how you want them and they are alusil compatible.
We are using Wossner pistons (coated from Wossner to suit an alusil bore) in our turbo 16v 3.0ltr engine. so far we have done 5000kms, 2 track days and 2 motokana's.
Sean
As you may know Nikasil is a tough plating, but like everything else there is always down sides. One of the major downsides to Nikasil is when you use a batch of high sulphur content fuel. High Sulphur content will break up the Nikasil coating. BMW had some major problems with their engines a while back in their M60 V8's and their M52 6 cylinders that were Nikasil coated. BMW then replaced those engines with a combination of steel/ cast iron or Alusil Liners.
Lucky these days that most fuels are low in sulphur.
As for the OP we recommend Wossner. As Chris White has pointed out you can get them made exactly how you want them and they are alusil compatible.
We are using Wossner pistons (coated from Wossner to suit an alusil bore) in our turbo 16v 3.0ltr engine. so far we have done 5000kms, 2 track days and 2 motokana's.
Sean
Nikasil has been used in high performance engines because it allows the total elimination of poor-cooling cast-iron, and it is harder and more oleophilic (oil-liking) than cast-iron. Nikasil offers superior lubrication, reduced friction, and superior wear characteristics.
The Nikasil cylinder coating is a nickel and silicon carbide matrix coating about 0.07mm (.0025-.003") thick. The Nikasil treatment coats a layer of nickel-silicon carbide, usually by electrolytic deposition, to the inner surface of aluminum cylinders. The nickel matrix is very hard, yet it is relatively ductile. Dispersed through the nickel are particles of silicon carbide less than 4 microns in size. These extremely hard particles make up 4% of the coating and form a multitude of adhesion spots where oil can collect. Beside providing a long wearing surface for the piston and rings, the silicon carbide particles contribute to longer engine life by ensuring good cylinder lubrication.
So why is there a problem? BMW reportedly did not discover the problem with Nikasil in their original testing because they used only high-quality fuel. Sulfur should be extracted from fuel before it is used, but since it is a costly process, oil companies may not remove as much as they should. Once BMW was aware of the Nikasil crisis, BMW replaced the cylinder blocks and also tried to ameliorate the problem by re-programming the DME to ensure higher combustion temperatures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikasil
Porsche always used Nikasil in their 911 turbo motors. Look at the list of modern engines using Nikasil using the above link. Porsche never had an issue with their Nikasil motors. I googled Nikasil BMW myths and found some interesting reading.
10-11-2011, 01:24 AM
#86
Drifting
10-11-2011, 01:42 AM
#87
Drifting
Hi George
I can assure you that BMW did have problems with their Nikasil coated engines. We have a BMW specialist 2 doors down who has been in business since the eighties. He has told me that on more occasions then he cares to admit(being a BMW fanatic) that he was replacing Nikasil blocks in the M60 and M52's. He does mention that his owns opinion was that coolant was the culprit but as he says its his opinion. What is a fact though is that when the new sleeved blocks came back there were no more issues to be had with said engine. So who really knows, it may have even been the way the blocks were coated or the oil used or the coolant used. either way when the nikasil was removed it fixed the issue BMW had.
Was there a particular reason you chose Nikasil over Alusil, seems like a lot of work to get the block coated when you can get pistons to suit the alusil. To be absolutely truthful if we had the choice i would get custom Mahle pistons to suit but unlike Wossner you cannot order just 1 set. And the Wossners seem to be holding up just fine on 1.5bar(22 psi) on the track with E85 and vitesse
I can assure you that BMW did have problems with their Nikasil coated engines. We have a BMW specialist 2 doors down who has been in business since the eighties. He has told me that on more occasions then he cares to admit(being a BMW fanatic) that he was replacing Nikasil blocks in the M60 and M52's. He does mention that his owns opinion was that coolant was the culprit but as he says its his opinion. What is a fact though is that when the new sleeved blocks came back there were no more issues to be had with said engine. So who really knows, it may have even been the way the blocks were coated or the oil used or the coolant used. either way when the nikasil was removed it fixed the issue BMW had.
Was there a particular reason you chose Nikasil over Alusil, seems like a lot of work to get the block coated when you can get pistons to suit the alusil. To be absolutely truthful if we had the choice i would get custom Mahle pistons to suit but unlike Wossner you cannot order just 1 set. And the Wossners seem to be holding up just fine on 1.5bar(22 psi) on the track with E85 and vitesse
10-11-2011, 01:25 PM
#90
Nordschleife Master
