Mahle, Arias, Woessner or JE pistons best?
01-26-2012, 03:15 PM
#107
Drifting
We had US Chrome and JE work together to build this motor. Both companies worked together to come up with the piston size. We told JE we wanted no piston slap. US Chrome told JE the bore size and head material, and JE sent the pistons. We were told to break in the motor, then pull the head to make sure the bores were still perfect. Well, we pulled the head and there was some slight scuffing in number four. JE sent us new rings, and US Chrome is going to hone another .1000th out of each cylinder. The pistons looked as new, and JE, US Chrome, and my engine builder stated it would probably last a very long time as is but will take care of the issue. The scuffing was slight, but still noticeable. It could have been ring breakin, but all parties are honoring their work with integrity.
My engine builder is honoring his warranty, US Chrome is covering the additional bore work and shipping, and JE sent us new rings at no cost. These motors are difficult to get perfect, and this delay's my build another month.
Point here is to use factory type materials if you are just looking at a 15-17psi motor. Custom stuff takes much more time, and requires some trial and error.
My engine builder is honoring his warranty, US Chrome is covering the additional bore work and shipping, and JE sent us new rings at no cost. These motors are difficult to get perfect, and this delay's my build another month.
Point here is to use factory type materials if you are just looking at a 15-17psi motor. Custom stuff takes much more time, and requires some trial and error.
JE told us two weeks ago that they cannot source the correct ring in this piston size for this application. Garrity is working with management at JE to buy back his other NINE sets of six cylinder pistons. Not a very good experience for all involved.
We have ordered Wossner pistons from Karl at Racers Edge with the help of Chris White. My block has to be completely stripped and coated at US Chrome. Because the bore issues were from JE incorrectly using the wrong material with the oil ring, Garrity told me he would take care of the additional cost of both the pistons, and bore work. US Chrome felt that JE should pay, but they are being unprofessional to date.
Garrity told me yesterday that he now has his attorney involved, as JE is refusing to take care of their mistake.
Not fun, and JE is not to be trusted when special ordering pistons for our motors.
01-26-2012, 04:07 PM
#109
Rennlist Member
Damn George, that is very frustrating!! When you say you found out that they don't supply this ring, was this through actually running the motor? If so, did it do much damage and will JE cover this?
01-26-2012, 05:05 PM
#112
Drifting
Garrity scoped the bores just prior to delivery, and saw some slight scoring in all cylinders. Pulled the head, and then a piston. No issues on the skirts or rings, just scoring on the new Nikasil bores. Nikasil is tougher than iron/steel and difficult to score or damage when done properly. You cannot use chrome rings, and JE knew this. They stated Garrity did something wrong. Garrity finally had the coating on the rings checked. Only the oil ring was chrome, and that's what caused the slight scoring.
JE is not "yet" covering Garrity's loss or taking back the other sets of pistons for other applications going into other Porsche Nikasil bores.
01-26-2012, 05:09 PM
#113
Race Car
George, you might be interested to know that this is not an isolated incident. We spoke on the phone briefly about this. I'll PM you.
01-26-2012, 05:19 PM
#114
Rennlist Member
One doesn't get the impression that JE gives a fig about our little world when they normally would deal in much larger quantities.
01-26-2012, 05:45 PM
#115
Nordschleife Master
Ouch sorry to hear George!
My 3.0l 16v runs alusil bores with Wössner pistons and the bores looked perfect after 1000-1500 miles when I removed the head. Personally I feel alusil bores and Wössner pistons is the safest combination for these engines.
My 3.0l 16v runs alusil bores with Wössner pistons and the bores looked perfect after 1000-1500 miles when I removed the head. Personally I feel alusil bores and Wössner pistons is the safest combination for these engines.
01-26-2012, 06:29 PM
#116
Drifting
Something about keeping things as close to stock rings loudly. In reality, there are many properly done Nikasil bores running out there. Porsche uses it on all their other turbo motors. My motor ran GREAT, no piston slap, sounded like stock, etc. The ONLY reason we are having issues is the fact that JE sent us the WRONG oil ring. If Garrity didn't bore scope the cylinders, I'd have the car in my posession. He could have just let it go, and I wouldn't have known about this for years. You could not feel anything with your nail. There was just scoring, no scratches.
01-26-2012, 06:53 PM
#117
Nordschleife Master
I bet you're very happy with your choice of engine builder in this mess! Seems like a very stand up person/firm.
Yeah the less you modify the less risk of a mess up
With that said, there are a lot of proven combinations but it demands more from the builder and parts supplier.
Yeah the less you modify the less risk of a mess up
With that said, there are a lot of proven combinations but it demands more from the builder and parts supplier.
01-27-2012, 01:22 AM
#118
Rennlist Member
UPDATE: We found that JE used a chrome oil ring that is not compatible with a Nicom or Nikasil bore. JE at first denied this, and we hade to prove they sent the WRONG oil ring. Garrity has NINE more sets of these for 911 Turbo bores. Most Porsche Turbo motors, except our factory 951's, came with Nikasil bores.
JE told us two weeks ago that they cannot source the correct ring in this piston size for this application. Garrity is working with management at JE to buy back his other NINE sets of six cylinder pistons. Not a very good experience for all involved.
We have ordered Wossner pistons from Karl at Racers Edge with the help of Chris White. My block has to be completely stripped and coated at US Chrome. Because the bore issues were from JE incorrectly using the wrong material with the oil ring, Garrity told me he would take care of the additional cost of both the pistons, and bore work. US Chrome felt that JE should pay, but they are being unprofessional to date.
Garrity told me yesterday that he now has his attorney involved, as JE is refusing to take care of their mistake.
Not fun, and JE is not to be trusted when special ordering pistons for our motors.
JE told us two weeks ago that they cannot source the correct ring in this piston size for this application. Garrity is working with management at JE to buy back his other NINE sets of six cylinder pistons. Not a very good experience for all involved.
We have ordered Wossner pistons from Karl at Racers Edge with the help of Chris White. My block has to be completely stripped and coated at US Chrome. Because the bore issues were from JE incorrectly using the wrong material with the oil ring, Garrity told me he would take care of the additional cost of both the pistons, and bore work. US Chrome felt that JE should pay, but they are being unprofessional to date.
Garrity told me yesterday that he now has his attorney involved, as JE is refusing to take care of their mistake.
Not fun, and JE is not to be trusted when special ordering pistons for our motors.
They went to Nikasil when they built 968 turbo S as well.
01-27-2012, 02:33 PM
#119
Drifting
JE completely F***** up with our VERY SPECIFIC order that was verified verbally and with recorded e-mails.
http://www.928motorsports.com/services/uschrome.php
01-27-2012, 04:21 PM
#120
Nordschleife Master
Something of possible interest. Nikasil is not difficult to match pistons. Porsche has done this on their 911 and 968TS OE motors successfully for decades.
JE completely F***** up with our VERY SPECIFIC order that was verified verbally and with recorded e-mails.
http://www.928motorsports.com/services/uschrome.php
JE completely F***** up with our VERY SPECIFIC order that was verified verbally and with recorded e-mails.
http://www.928motorsports.com/services/uschrome.php
This is the combo he has found to work well....