Mahle, Arias, Woessner or JE pistons best?
10-07-2011, 01:50 PM
#61
Three Wheelin'
10-07-2011, 03:34 PM
#62
Three Wheelin'
Dry sleeves remove the entire cylinder down into the bottom of the block and then entire new bores are inserted into the block. Christ White has some good pictures of the process on his website.
10-07-2011, 04:22 PM
#63
Block ready for Darton MID wet sleeves:
Here is a photo of my engine. You can see the new MID sleeves thru the waterpump hole:
The term wet sleeve means that the new cylinder makes contact with the coolant in the block.
The only photo on Mr. Whites website that shows dry sleeves is:
10-07-2011, 04:57 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
MIDs are wet.
10-07-2011, 05:29 PM
#65
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
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Lifetime Rennlist
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I think George D. said something that really shouldn't be over looked by people who want to build a big bore or stroker engine. George has one guy doing the entire build. He's got a top notch builder who is able to maintain build continuity and quality control. Doing it this way, one guy knows all of the peculiarities, or "personality" of his engine. I think there is a great deal of value in that concept for anyone doing a build out such as this.
Piecing things together from various sources and trying to make things work piecemeal is a recipe for disaster from all that I've seen over the last ten years with these cars.
Piecing things together from various sources and trying to make things work piecemeal is a recipe for disaster from all that I've seen over the last ten years with these cars.
10-07-2011, 05:33 PM
#66
Race Car
More or less determined to hunt down a set of Wossners.
I am however still not feeling confident as to increase CR or if I should let it remain at 8,0.
Also:Is thermal barriers on the pistons necessary outside the racetrack? Is it worthwhile for a "standard" engine?
Cheers
Niels
I am however still not feeling confident as to increase CR or if I should let it remain at 8,0.
Also:Is thermal barriers on the pistons necessary outside the racetrack? Is it worthwhile for a "standard" engine?
Cheers
Niels
10-07-2011, 08:20 PM
#67
Three Wheelin'
Niels, just give Karl at Racer's Edge a call. He is the North American distributor, and ships internationally almost daily. 8.0 is a safe choice. You probably could go a tad higher, as you won't have the dwell with a longer stroke as you would with the shorter one, which will help tolerate a little bit more. But I wouldn't go up a lot, by any means. 100mm is still a HUGE bore for pushing CR on a 2V boosted application.
10-07-2011, 08:22 PM
#68
Three Wheelin'
I think George D. said something that really shouldn't be over looked by people who want to build a big bore or stroker engine. George has one guy doing the entire build. He's got a top notch builder who is able to maintain build continuity and quality control. Doing it this way, one guy knows all of the peculiarities, or "personality" of his engine. I think there is a great deal of value in that concept for anyone doing a build out such as this.
Piecing things together from various sources and trying to make things work piecemeal is a recipe for disaster from all that I've seen over the last ten years with these cars.
Piecing things together from various sources and trying to make things work piecemeal is a recipe for disaster from all that I've seen over the last ten years with these cars.
10-07-2011, 08:28 PM
#69
Three Wheelin'
So dry sleeve is a bored out cylinder bore with a sleeve pressed in. No coolant touches the new sleeve , dry sleeve, hence the term.
MID wet sleeve original cylinder milled away new cylinder/piston/ring installed. Coolant circulates around the new barrel..wet sleeve!
MID wet sleeve original cylinder milled away new cylinder/piston/ring installed. Coolant circulates around the new barrel..wet sleeve!
10-07-2011, 08:38 PM
#70
What's the pros and cons between a wet sleeve versus a dry sleeve block.? Initially I would think a wet sleeve would be best for cooling, and perhaps a dry sleeve can take more pressure, but how does it keep cool then.? Just guessing here but always curious to learn more about our cars..
Alex.
Alex.
10-07-2011, 09:15 PM
#71
Three Wheelin'
What's the pros and cons between a wet sleeve versus a dry sleeve block.? Initially I would think a wet sleeve would be best for cooling, and perhaps a dry sleeve can take more pressure, but how does it keep cool then.? Just guessing here but always curious to learn more about our cars..
Alex.
Alex.
10-07-2011, 10:52 PM
#72
Race Car
4V absolutely. But you can get a higher CR with a smaller bore, regardless of 2V or 4V architecture. You give some of your gains back in increased friction losses, but I personally would rather have an undersquare 4V than an oversquare one. You'll often need to make a 2V very oversquare to get enough valve area to met your power targets, but that isn't an issue with a 4V.
I was really just saying overall that a 100mm bore is pretty darn big to begin with. I wouldn't push the CR envelope very hard.
I was really just saying overall that a 100mm bore is pretty darn big to begin with. I wouldn't push the CR envelope very hard.
10-07-2011, 11:22 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
Hi Tom,
You had your issues at the beginning and had to sort a few things out. You went to Garrity's 951 engine building PCA class, and he knows what he is doing. I'm envious of you building your 3.0 motor yourself. You did a great job, and I'm proud of your efforts.
Garrity honestly thinks my motor would last a long time as is. He thinks the SLIGHT scuffing was a ring breaking in. We both agreed that this may be true, but once we tune for high boost, and if the pistons swell ANY more, we'll have a possible motor that won't last as long as I want.
We have only tuned using 91 fuel, and never got over 19psi street tuning. Since I don't have the time, talent, and proper shop to build this motor, I decided to use one builder that would be responsible for the whole package. The motor was running fine, and Garrity could have just pulled the head, saw slight scuffing, and told me it was fine. He didn't, and is now doing everything needed to make sure this motor can handle high boost, while easily running 91 fuel with fairly high boost pressure as compared to stock. He did MANY Mustang dyno runs with zero pinging. He advanced the timing till there were a few counts, not hundreds, a few, then took some timing out. There was no evidence that we had any issues.
The engineers at JE, engineers at US Chrome, and Garrity, also a mechanical engineer, are all working together to create a killer/reliable motor. It sucks that **** like this happens, but JE and US Chrome made a one thousandth .001 error in bore size. If we used Mahle, JE, or ANY other forged piston with 4032 alum, we would probably be fine. The forged 2618 pistons from ALL manufacturers swell slightly more than the factory type forged 4032 alum, espicially in a turbo motor. JE also thinks that they made the gap too small in the rings, and when on extended boost runs, the expansion of the piston and ring together may have closed the ring gap completely. They know, based on examination of the rings, pistons, and bores, taking another .001 out of the bores, and installing new rings with a slightly different gap, we will likely be done with this motor.
We did discuss using 4032 pistons at the beginning of this build, and none of the piston manufacturers recommend this material unless we planned on keeping the boost under 16psi. We talked with Ross, Mahle, JE, and a few other manufacturers that Garrity uses for his customers. Garrity uses JE in many of his motors, and they seem to have a very good working relationship. If you google many of the newer Porsche engine builder supply folks you will see what they are using. www.ebsracing.com offers Mahle and JE. Broadfoot Racing built some serious 951 motors. They choose to sleeve their high boost engines and used JE pistons. It's not because JE is better, they probably just had good service from them. JE has been great during this build, and stood behind their efforts.
Trust me, it's not the piston of choice, it's the quality of the build.
Will I ever do a custom car and motor again?.....Probably not. Will it be worth the effort, money, frustration, and time?....Probably once I'm back behind the wheel.
Before we pulled the head, we hit 485wt and 455whp on a dynojet and 383hp and 406tq on a Mustang in the same shop. This was with a bad BOV that wouldn't close properly. (Don't ever use Synapse on our cars) We've installed a new Tial unit, and when the block gets back from US Chrome we'll break in the new rings, and do 91 fuel runs up to about 19psi. Then we'll tune for race fuel, and see where the turbo stops making more power to redline in a controlled dyno room.
This may be OT, but anyone doing a stroker using stock bores should use proven facotry type 4032 pistons with proper coating for the alusil bores. Chris White can probably provide you with what you need.
This post was a tad OT, but I had a few minutes to type and got carried away.
You had your issues at the beginning and had to sort a few things out. You went to Garrity's 951 engine building PCA class, and he knows what he is doing. I'm envious of you building your 3.0 motor yourself. You did a great job, and I'm proud of your efforts.
Garrity honestly thinks my motor would last a long time as is. He thinks the SLIGHT scuffing was a ring breaking in. We both agreed that this may be true, but once we tune for high boost, and if the pistons swell ANY more, we'll have a possible motor that won't last as long as I want.
We have only tuned using 91 fuel, and never got over 19psi street tuning. Since I don't have the time, talent, and proper shop to build this motor, I decided to use one builder that would be responsible for the whole package. The motor was running fine, and Garrity could have just pulled the head, saw slight scuffing, and told me it was fine. He didn't, and is now doing everything needed to make sure this motor can handle high boost, while easily running 91 fuel with fairly high boost pressure as compared to stock. He did MANY Mustang dyno runs with zero pinging. He advanced the timing till there were a few counts, not hundreds, a few, then took some timing out. There was no evidence that we had any issues.
The engineers at JE, engineers at US Chrome, and Garrity, also a mechanical engineer, are all working together to create a killer/reliable motor. It sucks that **** like this happens, but JE and US Chrome made a one thousandth .001 error in bore size. If we used Mahle, JE, or ANY other forged piston with 4032 alum, we would probably be fine. The forged 2618 pistons from ALL manufacturers swell slightly more than the factory type forged 4032 alum, espicially in a turbo motor. JE also thinks that they made the gap too small in the rings, and when on extended boost runs, the expansion of the piston and ring together may have closed the ring gap completely. They know, based on examination of the rings, pistons, and bores, taking another .001 out of the bores, and installing new rings with a slightly different gap, we will likely be done with this motor.
We did discuss using 4032 pistons at the beginning of this build, and none of the piston manufacturers recommend this material unless we planned on keeping the boost under 16psi. We talked with Ross, Mahle, JE, and a few other manufacturers that Garrity uses for his customers. Garrity uses JE in many of his motors, and they seem to have a very good working relationship. If you google many of the newer Porsche engine builder supply folks you will see what they are using. www.ebsracing.com offers Mahle and JE. Broadfoot Racing built some serious 951 motors. They choose to sleeve their high boost engines and used JE pistons. It's not because JE is better, they probably just had good service from them. JE has been great during this build, and stood behind their efforts.
Trust me, it's not the piston of choice, it's the quality of the build.
Will I ever do a custom car and motor again?.....Probably not. Will it be worth the effort, money, frustration, and time?....Probably once I'm back behind the wheel.
Before we pulled the head, we hit 485wt and 455whp on a dynojet and 383hp and 406tq on a Mustang in the same shop. This was with a bad BOV that wouldn't close properly. (Don't ever use Synapse on our cars) We've installed a new Tial unit, and when the block gets back from US Chrome we'll break in the new rings, and do 91 fuel runs up to about 19psi. Then we'll tune for race fuel, and see where the turbo stops making more power to redline in a controlled dyno room.
This may be OT, but anyone doing a stroker using stock bores should use proven facotry type 4032 pistons with proper coating for the alusil bores. Chris White can probably provide you with what you need.
This post was a tad OT, but I had a few minutes to type and got carried away.
)Absolutley didn't mean to suggest my motor was immune from post-start bugs (it wasn't) or that any high-performance build like yours is supposed to be perfect out of the box. And, agreed, Garrity is a good man for seeing this motor through so conscientiously!
10-08-2011, 12:49 AM
#74
What's the pros and cons between a wet sleeve versus a dry sleeve block.? Initially I would think a wet sleeve would be best for cooling, and perhaps a dry sleeve can take more pressure, but how does it keep cool then.? Just guessing here but always curious to learn more about our cars..
Alex.
Alex.
10-10-2011, 06:09 PM
#75
Drifting
The "wet sleeve" doesn't use the factory bore, and an entire new bore is pressed into the factory alum block.
Both these processes allow you to use your piston of choice.
I used the www.uschrome.com Nicom bore coating process using the factory bores and piston of choice.