DFASTEST951

I want to apologize to readers here who have seen my post more that once. I'm sure it got tiring. Next I wan to apologize if John951 took offense to my words as I am not taking anything away from him. I was just amazed that he did it with a 2.5 and he did it himself. I didn't and honestly can't build my own motor. Wish I could. So I'm one of those guys who has to work my *** off to get the money to have someone else build it for me. I spent a #@%!load of money on my car to get it that way. I did find out though that I was wrong about my boost. The 480 rwhp was at only 21 psi., not 23psi.So at 26psi,we figured that the car would put over 550 to the ground. I've never had it that high though. The dyno is at Powerhaus.com Click on "HOT". You'll see it there along with pic.
Roadrunner. I'm going to try to get a pic of the flame coming out the exhaust. I'ts pretty amazing.
I think I'm just so happy with the car and driveability I just had to voice it. Now that I read over it, it was a bit obnoxious. Sorry again. But everything I said it does is true. As far as a driver, I'm a bit above average, that's all. Against the posers on the street, I look like a pro though, because I agree, those guys are posers. I realized how bad a driver I was when I attended Bondurant. Now on the track as I said I'm still only average. The car makes up for my lack of skill. Anyway, I'll stop with a quote from my first post. Nuf'said, and I've said too much...again

Too bad I don't drink. I would've used that as an excuse...

fast951

Ok guys, let's all agree on something.
Most people that know anything about racing and race engines know that driving on the track adds plenty of wear and tear on the car. If you believe otherwise, please stay off of the track.

Anytime you run extract additional HP than the factory did, you are adding wear and tear (drivetrain, brakes, clutch...) If you are ever told otherwise, then someone lied to you.

Race engines (Nascar, F1, GT), all factory teams rebuild their engines after x number of hours.
This is a fact.

If you do not maintain an engine, or if the parts you added are not designed for intended purpose, then yes the engine will blow even on the street.

So, TonyG, I'm still trying to understand your point and what it has to do with this thread.
I have no desire to get involved in a tuner bashing thread. And if you have a tuner of choice then more power to the both of you. If you think that 951 cannot make good reliable HP, that's your opinion and I respect it.

My products are well designed, engineered and tested. People using my kits are happy. For the longest time I listen to people complain that the 951 is not reliable and will not make good HP. Oh yes, I've tired of hearing that you have to spend
a bundle to make it live.. Well I proved that the 951 can make serious HP, and I am able to put it in the hand of the average guy that cannot afford to spend big $$$$ on sexy items.
For street use I always recommends Stage 1 kit. Stage 2 is border line between track/street and stage 3 is pretty much for the track.
I have always been up front about things. People that contacted and wanting me to fix problems with "kits" they purchased elsewhere got an honest evaluation...

So TonyG or anyone else, if you have something negative to say about my products, please say it. Negative statements, that have nothing to do with the products that I offer are way off topic.

Sorry for the long post. I think this thread is taking a turn in the wrong direction. Let's just move to something else.

DFASTEST951

Tony, Luke, and Silverbullit. I have to agree by proof that I would rather not admit. It is dangerous to run 22+ psi for extended periods, especially without race fuel. Here's the part I would rather not admit....This is my...uh...FOURTH motor (Funny how I can almost hear everyone laughing at me right now). I was the idiot that learned the hard way. I now have only been over 1.1 bar boost on the dyno. And Luke is also right about the limits of Motronic. With Motec, it's a whole new ball game. Just don't know if it's worth the 10 large to do it...

DFASTEST951

John951, I completely agree with you. I would like to add not only can you get dependable hp from our cars but I believe you should go with parts/tuner who has done the research as you have and not mix to many different parts from different people or companies as they may not be compatible. Even then you have to take care of them correctly or you'll end up like me...four motors later...and worse...all my fault.

fast951

DFASTEST951,
No need to apologize, I was not offended. I'm sure you are happy with your car, and for a good reason. Bragging about it is fine, we all do it.

Blowing up 4 engines can get expensive. But don't feel bad. Few days ago I had a call from someone claiming that "a tuner" was tuning his chips and the leaned it out. So the engine requires a rebuild.. It's ok to make a mistake, just don't make the same mistake twice

As for the Motronic vs Motec or other engine managements. I think the Motronic is fine as long as you can tune it. All engine managements are tools, what you do with them is up to you.
Every system on the market has its limitations.

Luke

motronic seems to do the job if tune on the dyno and only run your car on days of the same temp., humidity, and at the same altitude.

Investing Big Bucks into a motor, i would rather be able to monitor things like timing ( distributor-less timing ) and what not.

I plan to invest in DTA in the near future.

Konstantin

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Luke:
<strong>motronic seems to do the job if tune on the dyno and only run your car on days of the same temp., humidity, and at the same altitude.

Investing Big Bucks into a motor, i would rather be able to monitor things like timing ( distributor-less timing ) and what not.

I plan to invest in DTA in the near future.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">All Porsche Race cars like Gt3 Cup GT3RS older GT2 etc run in Motornic won many races and were and still is the most reliable race cars.
The Bosch Motronic is a very good system especialy the race motrinics. the only downside is that they are not easy to tune and only Bosch and Porsche (and maybe some gut Geramn tuners) can do this job right.
Thats why many go to aftermarket stand alone like DTA, Motec etc. they are much easier to tune you have full control and do not need a Porsche or Bosch technician to do this right.

Konstantin

fast951

Luke,

DTA is a good system. I purchased one years ago, and if I had a project that requires engine management DTA will be on the top of my list.
When you get ready to convert, perhaps I can recommend a tuner that is good to work with and has installed DTA on few 951s. He'll be a good source for Hardware and Software.

rage2

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Konstantin:
<strong>the only downside is that they are not easy to tune and only Bosch and Porsche (and maybe some gut Geramn tuners) can do this job right.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The problem is everything that's required to modify a Motronic setup is kept secret. Only a few people have access to the software or have reverse engineered the system so they can do it themselves.

If you had the software, it'd be as easy as any other EFI setup. Well, almost as easy. From what I've seen, you can modify the base assembly code to get the system to do certain functions differently (ie rev limit, speed limits, fan activation, etc.)

fast951

Rage2,
Well spoken. The user interface (or lack of it), makes programming the Motronic almost impossible. Also you have the size/memory limitations on the chip, which limits your resolution. However, the system works fine, and once you figure it out, it's not bad to work with.
I have written a application that allows me to modify things through a nice GUI.

TonyG

Fast951,

Just to clarify ....

I don't really have a "favorite tuner". I have, and still do, purchase from a lot of different tuners (Lindsey, Huntley, SFR, and more). Heck... I'm checking out your stuff because I'm always in the market for the next trick part.

I simply go with the parts I feel I need for my particular application, that I can afford, that will be as reliable as possible, and that will give me the type of power that I'm looking for.

I'm not taking any sides here. You don't see me running out and posting my dyno runs here.

So I'm not taking sides, nor am I discounting your tuning abilities. All I'm saying is that big HP claims resulting from big boost numbers simply aren't realistic claims. This is because those numbers resulting from the big boost numbers simply aren't reliable (unless you have a good $25k-$30k invested... even then I question the reliability at sustained loads, at those boost levels).

The claims (whatever the HP/TQ is or isn't) should be made at boost levels that can be sustained reliably without pending engine failure, by everyone here on the list (and preferrably running pump gas), that way we (including me) could form educated decisions with respect to purchases that produce real everyday results.

Like I said... dyno your combo at 1 bar of boost. If it's that good, then it will make a lot more power than we've seen at the same boost levels, from other tuners.

fast951

TonyG,

Not a problem. Next time I get a chance, I'll dyno the car at 1 bar boost and will post it and will even email it directly to you. However, people that intend on getting the Stage 3 kit, will probably run much more boost.

TonyG

fast951

&gt;people that intend on getting the Stage 3 kit, will probably run much more boost. &lt;

Agreed! It's so tempting to turn that little black ****!

&gt;Next time I get a chance, I'll dyno the car at 1 bar boost and will post it and will even email it directly to you.&lt;

Thanks, but you don't have to email it to me. Just post it.

I, and othere here, like to be able to compare apples-to-apples, various configurations, at "like" boost levels.

I just posted a dyno run of my setup, but the dyno that I run at locally doesn't have the boost recording built into it.

I'm going to do further tuning on a dyno that can print out the exact numbers with the boost referrenced at every point.

fast951

TonyG,

Now it becomes clear why you want the 1 bar run. You want to compare to your graph. Why didn't you ask this in the first place? BTW I recommend you never take the 951 engine past 6200-6400rpm, unless you want to build another one.

As I stated, I will be glad to post a 1 bar run. I'm sure someone with the Stage 1 kit will be posting results soon.

Now May I request you do a dyno run at 22-24 psi boost. So we can compare apples-to-apples, or was it oranges?

TonyG

fast951

Why wouldn't I want to take my engine past 6200-6400rpms?

Yes I want to compare. Of course I want to compare. Don't we all?

And there's no way I'll do a 22-24psi boost run in this car with the stock intercooler. I wouldn't do that high of a boost run even with the new Spearco intercooler either. I'll probably limit my boost to a "mere" 18psi.

18psi is the limit of what I consider safe in this engine for sustained periods of time. And since my car is built to run on a track (and street), I only intend to tune it for sustained operation.

But I'd be more than willing to compare 18psi runs.