951 Spec to be Competitive with 997 GT3 RS
#106
I know everybody has seen a 944 pass a GT3 and think that their car can hang.
But the reality of it is quite a bit different. Especially if you have the car properly prepared with a real driver.
If you take that bone stock GT3RS and gut it, align it, add the proper aero, setup the trans with a close ratio gear set and a GT 40/60 dff, and put on a set of Yokohama slicks.... no 951 will ever keep up on the track (unless it's a full tube frame one-off car like Orca or Flipper... but even then I never saw either one do the kinds of lap times the prepped GT3 could do.)
These cars seem to defy the laws of physics. They are so damn fast even when they are down on power it's just amazing.
With drivers that are equal to me, and me running a lesser NT01 tire.... I get lapped. Yeah the tire is a couple of seconds per lap difference. These cars are running like 6+ seconds per lap faster than my car at 2625lbs with almost 400RWHP.
And the difference is pretty consistent no matter the track.
So if you think you're gonna take a GT3RS that's preparred like I mentioned above... you better think again.
Your only hope is that the driver is simply not as good as you.
TonyG
But the reality of it is quite a bit different. Especially if you have the car properly prepared with a real driver.
If you take that bone stock GT3RS and gut it, align it, add the proper aero, setup the trans with a close ratio gear set and a GT 40/60 dff, and put on a set of Yokohama slicks.... no 951 will ever keep up on the track (unless it's a full tube frame one-off car like Orca or Flipper... but even then I never saw either one do the kinds of lap times the prepped GT3 could do.)
These cars seem to defy the laws of physics. They are so damn fast even when they are down on power it's just amazing.
With drivers that are equal to me, and me running a lesser NT01 tire.... I get lapped. Yeah the tire is a couple of seconds per lap difference. These cars are running like 6+ seconds per lap faster than my car at 2625lbs with almost 400RWHP.
And the difference is pretty consistent no matter the track.
So if you think you're gonna take a GT3RS that's preparred like I mentioned above... you better think again.
Your only hope is that the driver is simply not as good as you.
TonyG
#107
#109
Ah, no. To thick for me.. Ehall nice pic though.
You got that right.
#110
I know everybody has seen a 944 pass a GT3 and think that their car can hang.
But the reality of it is quite a bit different. Especially if you have the car properly prepared with a real driver.
If you take that bone stock GT3RS and gut it, align it, add the proper aero, setup the trans with a close ratio gear set and a GT 40/60 dff, and put on a set of Yokohama slicks.... no 951 will ever keep up on the track (unless it's a full tube frame one-off car like Orca or Flipper... but even then I never saw either one do the kinds of lap times the prepped GT3 could do.)
These cars seem to defy the laws of physics. They are so damn fast even when they are down on power it's just amazing.
With drivers that are equal to me, and me running a lesser NT01 tire.... I get lapped. Yeah the tire is a couple of seconds per lap difference. These cars are running like 6+ seconds per lap faster than my car at 2625lbs with almost 400RWHP.
And the difference is pretty consistent no matter the track.
So if you think you're gonna take a GT3RS that's preparred like I mentioned above... you better think again.
Your only hope is that the driver is simply not as good as you.
TonyG
But the reality of it is quite a bit different. Especially if you have the car properly prepared with a real driver.
If you take that bone stock GT3RS and gut it, align it, add the proper aero, setup the trans with a close ratio gear set and a GT 40/60 dff, and put on a set of Yokohama slicks.... no 951 will ever keep up on the track (unless it's a full tube frame one-off car like Orca or Flipper... but even then I never saw either one do the kinds of lap times the prepped GT3 could do.)
These cars seem to defy the laws of physics. They are so damn fast even when they are down on power it's just amazing.
With drivers that are equal to me, and me running a lesser NT01 tire.... I get lapped. Yeah the tire is a couple of seconds per lap difference. These cars are running like 6+ seconds per lap faster than my car at 2625lbs with almost 400RWHP.
And the difference is pretty consistent no matter the track.
So if you think you're gonna take a GT3RS that's preparred like I mentioned above... you better think again.
Your only hope is that the driver is simply not as good as you.
TonyG
#111
When you say 6+ seconds better Tony, what sort of laptimes are you talking about? How long is the track in question? 6 seconds is enormous so I have to imagine that these are very long tracks to be doing that over your car/setup. Also to be fair, and you've said this yourself, you have not done much at all to your motor and I don't think you thrash the daylights out of it either from what I've seen. Perhaps it's the natural 'lazyness' of the V8 that gives that impression, but I do find that pretty surprising all the same.
And it has nothing to do with the power. These cars don't pull me down the straights. And they don't really carry a lot more corner speed (a little, but equal tires would fix that).
They are just much better under braking (due to better weight distribution and their far superior ABS systems), quicker on turn-in (again due to weight distribution), can get out of a slow speed turn much harder (again... due to weight distribution).
They are better at jumping curbs (due to suspension geometry/design) without upsetting the car of losing traction (a big thing at tracks like Buttonwillow)
I could go on... but it's just all the little things that add up to a lot of time on a big track.
Another 100Hp won't fix the issue. If you're faster in and out of the turns, you're gonna win. The straights won't make up for that.
I love the 951 and it's a great car for track days and racing... but it's just not an equal platform to the 996/997 once you set them up.
TonyG
#112
I can add some first hand recent knowledge of the differences on track with a prepared 951 LS1 vs 997 GT3 prepped for track only duty. This past weekend at Miller Motorsport Park on the West track the 997 was 3-4 seconds faster than me in my car during the race. I know this 997 well and the driver is a faster driver than me and knows the 996/997 cars handling in and out. He runs slicks I have Hoosier R3s.
Another 99 996 cup car was four-five seconds faster, and a 996 highly prepped GT3RSR was 7-8 seconds faster and another 2010 ALMS CUP car driven by a ALMS series Champion was almost 9 seconds faster. This is a 2.3 mile course.
All these cars were running slicks but I don't think I would be able to close the gap of 3-9 secs even if I were on slicks. Still I have a lot of fun running my car and for me it is a great car. Extremely predictable and consistent throughout the race.
So I do agree with Tony that it is the sum of all the little things the 996/997 chassis does that make them so very quick. The aerodynamics, chassis stiffness, suspension geometry, weight balance and the "hand of God Brakes" just make for a terrific package.
Now, I can also say from personal experience that a well set up track oriented street 951 3.0 turbo with decent suspension and tires will certainly run with most close to stock GT3s on most tracks, but not run away from them, equal drivers assumed.
Another 99 996 cup car was four-five seconds faster, and a 996 highly prepped GT3RSR was 7-8 seconds faster and another 2010 ALMS CUP car driven by a ALMS series Champion was almost 9 seconds faster. This is a 2.3 mile course.
All these cars were running slicks but I don't think I would be able to close the gap of 3-9 secs even if I were on slicks. Still I have a lot of fun running my car and for me it is a great car. Extremely predictable and consistent throughout the race.
So I do agree with Tony that it is the sum of all the little things the 996/997 chassis does that make them so very quick. The aerodynamics, chassis stiffness, suspension geometry, weight balance and the "hand of God Brakes" just make for a terrific package.
Now, I can also say from personal experience that a well set up track oriented street 951 3.0 turbo with decent suspension and tires will certainly run with most close to stock GT3s on most tracks, but not run away from them, equal drivers assumed.
#113
Some interesting comments there from Tony and Dan. Dan I didn't know you had gone the V8 route either. (I will send you a pm regards your old clutch.) Dan, you concede that this guy in the prepped 997 is a faster driver than you and on slicks. It would be good to see you with some more experience under your belt and on slicks too. The gap would get much closer I'm thinking.
Tony, we have seen down here that the Cup Cars actually seem to avoid the gators. Their spring and shock rate is so stiff that that don't want to upset the car overly. Of course you're right in saying that they have suspension that reacts faster to upsets and also maintains better geometry overall. Short of something very custom and the few rare examples we've seen, the 944 isn't going to keep up with that level of race prepped rear engine Porsche no matter how much power you throw at them. I've clearly watched well driven stock GT3s just power away out of slower corners. Lets see what turns up next year in terms of new builds. I know there are quite a few in the pipeline that should be interesting. Watch this space.
Tony, we have seen down here that the Cup Cars actually seem to avoid the gators. Their spring and shock rate is so stiff that that don't want to upset the car overly. Of course you're right in saying that they have suspension that reacts faster to upsets and also maintains better geometry overall. Short of something very custom and the few rare examples we've seen, the 944 isn't going to keep up with that level of race prepped rear engine Porsche no matter how much power you throw at them. I've clearly watched well driven stock GT3s just power away out of slower corners. Lets see what turns up next year in terms of new builds. I know there are quite a few in the pipeline that should be interesting. Watch this space.
#114
Some interesting comments there from Tony and Dan. Dan I didn't know you had gone the V8 route either. (I will send you a pm regards your old clutch.) Dan, you concede that this guy in the prepped 997 is a faster driver than you and on slicks. It would be good to see you with some more experience under your belt and on slicks too. The gap would get much closer I'm thinking.
As a good point of comparison about how fast the Cup Cars can be, in a recent race I got lapped (30 minute race) by one of the regular competitors who runs in the Patron GT3 platinum Series. I can only wish I were that quick. He was almost 8 secs a lap faster.
#115
All I can say is get more videos guys. Of course these cars have some big advantages over ours. However as we have all seen in the clip below, this guy does pretty well against a Cup Car and I'm sure this was without a monster motor. Just lighter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vExPd...layer_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vExPd...layer_embedded
#117
Having posted that video a number of times, I also never get sick of watching it too Adam. I did speak via email to the owner/builder/driver Richard a few times. I could dig up some emails perhaps, but from memory this was sort of an interim motor while he built up something special. Got a feeling that may have been postponed or cancelled. Hans would have a better idea. They raced against one another.
His car actually resemble Tony's ironically. The yellow car is his stablemates.
Notice the Tower in the background.
His car actually resemble Tony's ironically. The yellow car is his stablemates.
Notice the Tower in the background.