Am I going to nuke something?
07-17-2009, 02:34 PM
#1
Rainman
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Am I going to nuke something?
Most of my questions get automatically directed at Sid because he has firsthand experience with the basic tenets of my supercharger project, however all his experience and tuning with E85 is of no use to me since that fuel is not readily available in southern California (only 3 or 4 stations within 200 miles of me).
I too will be using an Eaton M90 off a Ford Supercoupe, hoping to run the stock-sized pulley which Sid says is good for around 10psi on either a dedicated toothed belt setup or running off the accessory drive with a nice idler pulley or two and a hugeee belt.
I am planning on building this setup to be run on California's finest 91-octane swill. I will be adding a methanol injection system but do not want to use it as a "crutch" as the end-all method of preventing detonation. The methanol setup would be dialed in using generic windshield-washer fluid as a base, with the possibility of higher methanol-content mixes at various times. I am not so much interested in the octane effects of methanol as I am the evaporative cooling effects.
This setup will be intercooled with an air/water intercooler from frozenboost (which after some reading turns out to be a well-reputed company) that they say is good for 350HP and has a pressure drop of about 0.1PSI (can be seen here: http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...d2f96a150480c4). This intercooler will have its own dedicated coolant circuit complete with an electric fan, a good-sized heat exchanger, and a high-flow water pump.
In addition the engine coolant should be somewhat cooler as I am in the process of finding a 951 external oil cooler (thereby eliminating the oil/water cooler on the NA block) which should prevent heating the incoming air somewhat.
As for management, for now I want to stick with the Motronic. I hope to be able to use the Ford MAF (have it wired up, just need a late DME) as I have heard mixed reviews about the AFM working with a blower (Sid says it works, Corky Bell says it won't). I will run stock fuel rail/FPR with 951 injectors (will the injector circuit's lower resistance of about 2.8ohms be a problem with the injectors running at 5.5ohms?). Using the Motronic I will retard timing ~3 degrees and possibly add 6% fuel if needed.
The engine is a 20,000 mile rebuilt NA engine with fresh seals everywhere, head gasket, piston rings, rod and main bearings, valve job. Runs the same cam you turbo guys do for those of you needing lift and duration info.
Is something going to blow up?
I too will be using an Eaton M90 off a Ford Supercoupe, hoping to run the stock-sized pulley which Sid says is good for around 10psi on either a dedicated toothed belt setup or running off the accessory drive with a nice idler pulley or two and a hugeee belt.
I am planning on building this setup to be run on California's finest 91-octane swill. I will be adding a methanol injection system but do not want to use it as a "crutch" as the end-all method of preventing detonation. The methanol setup would be dialed in using generic windshield-washer fluid as a base, with the possibility of higher methanol-content mixes at various times. I am not so much interested in the octane effects of methanol as I am the evaporative cooling effects.
This setup will be intercooled with an air/water intercooler from frozenboost (which after some reading turns out to be a well-reputed company) that they say is good for 350HP and has a pressure drop of about 0.1PSI (can be seen here: http://www.frozenboost.com/product_i...d2f96a150480c4). This intercooler will have its own dedicated coolant circuit complete with an electric fan, a good-sized heat exchanger, and a high-flow water pump.
In addition the engine coolant should be somewhat cooler as I am in the process of finding a 951 external oil cooler (thereby eliminating the oil/water cooler on the NA block) which should prevent heating the incoming air somewhat.
As for management, for now I want to stick with the Motronic. I hope to be able to use the Ford MAF (have it wired up, just need a late DME) as I have heard mixed reviews about the AFM working with a blower (Sid says it works, Corky Bell says it won't). I will run stock fuel rail/FPR with 951 injectors (will the injector circuit's lower resistance of about 2.8ohms be a problem with the injectors running at 5.5ohms?). Using the Motronic I will retard timing ~3 degrees and possibly add 6% fuel if needed.
The engine is a 20,000 mile rebuilt NA engine with fresh seals everywhere, head gasket, piston rings, rod and main bearings, valve job. Runs the same cam you turbo guys do for those of you needing lift and duration info.
Is something going to blow up?
07-17-2009, 05:05 PM
#4
Race Car
My thoughts
the Ford MAF won't work w/o a chip and PB
The AFM will work but limit airflow, definitely enough for 10 psi
use supercoupe injectors rather than 951's
use 951 IC, AW is a waste of time
use the current ribbed belt for simplicity, the belt stretches but not really too bad unless you are driving the blower hard
at 10 psi I can't see it doing any damage if the AFR and timing are in check.
Methanol injection will really help out but needs to be tuned into the setup.
check with a chip burner on here to get you a custom tune for safety.
the Ford MAF won't work w/o a chip and PB
The AFM will work but limit airflow, definitely enough for 10 psi
use supercoupe injectors rather than 951's
use 951 IC, AW is a waste of time
use the current ribbed belt for simplicity, the belt stretches but not really too bad unless you are driving the blower hard
at 10 psi I can't see it doing any damage if the AFR and timing are in check.
Methanol injection will really help out but needs to be tuned into the setup.
check with a chip burner on here to get you a custom tune for safety.
07-17-2009, 06:05 PM
#6
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GM used it on the Cyclone/Typhoons.
Mercedes used it on the E55.
Toyota even used it on the older Celica GT-Four.
I see no reason why a proper setup would be 'drag-race' exclusive...
-Rogue
07-17-2009, 06:50 PM
#7
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I don't see why the AFM won't work. It might limit airflow a little, but Porsche did use one on the 951, and in terms of the intake side of the equation, there's no real difference between a turbo and a supercharger. So, broadly speaking, the AFM, if installed upstream of the supercharger, should be fine. You might want to use it just so there's one less variable in your system at first, and then once you get it running with the AFM, swap in a MAF system.
Also, for the intercooler, what about swapping in the center panel like that guy in Excellence did to turbo his 924S?
Also, for the intercooler, what about swapping in the center panel like that guy in Excellence did to turbo his 924S?
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07-17-2009, 06:55 PM
#8
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To answer your question, the only real way to find out what will cause it to blow up is to stick it on a dyno and blow it up to find out what the limits are. Then you can detune to whatever you feel appropriate. Not the most economic method, but at least you will know what the limits really are.
07-18-2009, 01:15 AM
#9
Rainman
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I don't see why the AFM won't work. It might limit airflow a little, but Porsche did use one on the 951, and in terms of the intake side of the equation, there's no real difference between a turbo and a supercharger. So, broadly speaking, the AFM, if installed upstream of the supercharger, should be fine. You might want to use it just so there's one less variable in your system at first, and then once you get it running with the AFM, swap in a MAF system.
Also, for the intercooler, what about swapping in the center panel like that guy in Excellence did to turbo his 924S?
Also, for the intercooler, what about swapping in the center panel like that guy in Excellence did to turbo his 924S?
To answer your question, the only real way to find out what will cause it to blow up is to stick it on a dyno and blow it up to find out what the limits are. Then you can detune to whatever you feel appropriate. Not the most economic method, but at least you will know what the limits really are.
07-18-2009, 01:32 AM
#10
Nordschleife Master
http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/index...OD&ProdID=1001
Summit sells full stand alone knock displays with sensors and harness...
07-18-2009, 09:16 AM
#13
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"Lightning, & Cobras. GM used it on the Cyclone/Typhoons." - pretty much street drag racers...
The vast majority of the GT-Four had air to air – only a special rally version had water to air.
I don't know much about the E55 so no comment on that…
The water to air system is nice for short term loadings, the liquid coolant acts as a heat bank, you can transfer heat energy into it and it will not increase in temp quickly. On the other hand as it gets hotter it will take a lot more energy release to cool it back down. Its sort of like a heat damper.
The problem with water to air cooling is that you are simply adding another step in the heat transfer process – first air to water and then water to air. Sure, the first air to water transfer is really compact and efficient (handy for very tight engine bays and aero issues) but then you will need a water to air system to finally reject the heat – it would have to be as big as the traditional air to air exchanger. Try and find a place for that on a 951.
Now if you are looking to do this on a street only application then in theory it will work – but where are you going to put the final water to air exchanger….and if you put it in the same place as the air to air intercooler…well that would be silly. Adding a second exchanger, lots of plumbing, a pump and other goodies just does not make sense unless you really need it for a packing problem (and that has already been solved for the air to air system in our cars).
One final item – if it had any real engineering benefits you would have seen all the endurance racers go to it years ago.
As always – remember that my comments are based on a road race thought pattern – it you aren’t running mostly full throttle for half an hour….then it must be just a drag race!!!
)
07-18-2009, 11:55 AM
#15
Rainman
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Hmmm...
"Lightning, & Cobras. GM used it on the Cyclone/Typhoons." - pretty much street drag racers...
The vast majority of the GT-Four had air to air – only a special rally version had water to air.
I don't know much about the E55 so no comment on that…
The water to air system is nice for short term loadings, the liquid coolant acts as a heat bank, you can transfer heat energy into it and it will not increase in temp quickly. On the other hand as it gets hotter it will take a lot more energy release to cool it back down. Its sort of like a heat damper.
The problem with water to air cooling is that you are simply adding another step in the heat transfer process – first air to water and then water to air. Sure, the first air to water transfer is really compact and efficient (handy for very tight engine bays and aero issues) but then you will need a water to air system to finally reject the heat – it would have to be as big as the traditional air to air exchanger. Try and find a place for that on a 951.
Now if you are looking to do this on a street only application then in theory it will work – but where are you going to put the final water to air exchanger….and if you put it in the same place as the air to air intercooler…well that would be silly. Adding a second exchanger, lots of plumbing, a pump and other goodies just does not make sense unless you really need it for a packing problem (and that has already been solved for the air to air system in our cars).
One final item – if it had any real engineering benefits you would have seen all the endurance racers go to it years ago.
As always – remember that my comments are based on a road race thought pattern – it you aren’t running mostly full throttle for half an hour….then it must be just a drag race!!!
"Lightning, & Cobras. GM used it on the Cyclone/Typhoons." - pretty much street drag racers...
The vast majority of the GT-Four had air to air – only a special rally version had water to air.
I don't know much about the E55 so no comment on that…
The water to air system is nice for short term loadings, the liquid coolant acts as a heat bank, you can transfer heat energy into it and it will not increase in temp quickly. On the other hand as it gets hotter it will take a lot more energy release to cool it back down. Its sort of like a heat damper.
The problem with water to air cooling is that you are simply adding another step in the heat transfer process – first air to water and then water to air. Sure, the first air to water transfer is really compact and efficient (handy for very tight engine bays and aero issues) but then you will need a water to air system to finally reject the heat – it would have to be as big as the traditional air to air exchanger. Try and find a place for that on a 951.
Now if you are looking to do this on a street only application then in theory it will work – but where are you going to put the final water to air exchanger….and if you put it in the same place as the air to air intercooler…well that would be silly. Adding a second exchanger, lots of plumbing, a pump and other goodies just does not make sense unless you really need it for a packing problem (and that has already been solved for the air to air system in our cars).
One final item – if it had any real engineering benefits you would have seen all the endurance racers go to it years ago.
As always – remember that my comments are based on a road race thought pattern – it you aren’t running mostly full throttle for half an hour….then it must be just a drag race!!!
however there is a good volume of room in front of the existing radiator and to the sides for a decently sized heat exchanger. maybe even 2 smaller ones.
and with a roots-type supercharged car where boost is nearly instantaneous with throttle you want your air to be cooled off as soon as boost hits. air to air makes more sense on a turbo car because it takes time to spool and in that time the car gets moving to a good enough speed where there is airflow across the IC.
endurance racers probably shied away from AW because of the significant weight gain from such a system (2 heat exchangers, a big pump, and a few gallons of water arent light) and they have chassis custom built to their needs (so they can engineer in an air-air) and also due to a point you provided, that the water is used as a bank for heat and eventually it will stop pulling heat out if it is under constant duty to do so without adequate cooling from the heat exchanger. basically it is intentional heat soak.
my car will not be seeing full throttle for 24hrs at a time, with a rough number from what ive seen following sid's project it might be putting out about 230hp which with a curb weight of 2900lbs and a turbo gearbox means ill be doing extralegal speeds within about 10 seconds and then boost is off for the most part, allowing the (at those speeds, enormous) quantity of air passing by to cool off the water in the FM heat exchanger.