951s LS1?
04-10-2009, 11:42 PM
#151
Rennlist Member
You could build a 3L that will do all of those things and have plenty of power up top. I think the defining point in this discussion is n/a vs psi. Some guys like it, others don't care so much for it. I imagine that a well sorted conversion would be a very compelling argument and some of us boost junkies would be hard pressed to disregard if we rode in say Tony or Travis' cars. The other point is for hood up or down lifestyle lol. I get the hood down aspect as much as the next guy, possibly more than some, but if we assume that both cars are in good condition and the motors are either crate or a full rebuild (possibly with many improvements) then we're again on a similar page. The difference will be cost. To do a really good 3L you will spend a bit more than the crate LS motor, but then you've got to pay more to install the LS so we're starting to get closer again.
Then there's the torque issue. We don't all have to have ST's curve. He built the car to serve a purpose. Just wait for a few more of these 3L that are in the wings and see their torque curves. They will be pretty impressive.
Really not a lot between them. You gotta ask yourself one question "Do you like boost punk, well do ya?"
Then there's the torque issue. We don't all have to have ST's curve. He built the car to serve a purpose. Just wait for a few more of these 3L that are in the wings and see their torque curves. They will be pretty impressive.
Really not a lot between them. You gotta ask yourself one question "Do you like boost punk, well do ya?"
People need to get off whispers and tony g's backs, The ls engines are far from drag only engines, I could swear the corvette c5r ran and won several american lemans races! there is a crap load of ls powered cars in grand am daytona prototypes. Its not a drag only engine. If you think you are a pure Porsche fan and you are rolling around in a 944 with a 3 liter engine, and calling 911's overpriced beetles (911 is still here, wheres the 944?) while claiming we should not mind spending money on our Porsches. I cant figure you out, I get it you are a diehard 944 fan, then put your 2.5 liter back in and shut up and smell the crap you are shoveling.
the ls engine is a far better engine then the inline 4 cylinder Porsche engine is. When was the last time you saw someone take one of out 2.5 liter engines and put into another make car? you dont, cause our engines suck overall, but we deal with them because we love our cars!
Back in the 80's the only thing that kept the 944 turbo s from being considered a supercar was the engine, what does that tell you.
I am tired of hearing about your 3.0, if you like it good, if someone esle likes the ls route, good. leave it at that. stop trying to convince everyone that one way is wrong and one way is right. Its all a matter of perspective. especially since you already came to the conclusion the the 2.5 leaves alot to be desired, otherwise you would not of changed to a 3.0
It took 10 pages for me to loose my patience, I think it is way cool that people do the ls swap, especially at the caliber of dvc's and tong g's. and it is way cool some of the modded 4's on the board. But damn putting someone down because they want to do the ls swap is irritating, coming from 944 owners, our cars barely qualify to be a Porsche in the 1st place.
Semper fi
the ls engine is a far better engine then the inline 4 cylinder Porsche engine is. When was the last time you saw someone take one of out 2.5 liter engines and put into another make car? you dont, cause our engines suck overall, but we deal with them because we love our cars!
Back in the 80's the only thing that kept the 944 turbo s from being considered a supercar was the engine, what does that tell you.
I am tired of hearing about your 3.0, if you like it good, if someone esle likes the ls route, good. leave it at that. stop trying to convince everyone that one way is wrong and one way is right. Its all a matter of perspective. especially since you already came to the conclusion the the 2.5 leaves alot to be desired, otherwise you would not of changed to a 3.0
It took 10 pages for me to loose my patience, I think it is way cool that people do the ls swap, especially at the caliber of dvc's and tong g's. and it is way cool some of the modded 4's on the board. But damn putting someone down because they want to do the ls swap is irritating, coming from 944 owners, our cars barely qualify to be a Porsche in the 1st place.
Semper fi
well then maybe someone should ask IB to start a 944 hybrid/conversion forum.
Last I looked this one says "Turbo".
As for the conversion, I stated...I believe 3 times...that I am in the early stages of doing one myself. Just don't feel a Porsche Turbo forum is the place to discuss it, that is what the hybrid forum is for. As well as the claim that is still a "true" Porsche...it just simply would not be. No matter if it is a smattering of parts, it was/is a Porsche. Period.
OR:
I guess a Cadillac is actually a Malibu, Jaguar is a Ford Contour, Mercedes CLK 320 is a Dodge Crossfire, Acura NSX is a Honda Accord, Pontiac G8 is a Corvette, Range Rover is a Ford Explorer, Porsche Cayman is a VW, Mercedes 500 is a Plymouth 300M, Audi is a Jetta, etc.....I could go on for days.
These are but a few examples of manufacturers who share technology, components and parts. Do these cars "barely" qualify to be called by their respective names because of these partnerships?
Just my opinion...just how I feel, nothing more, nothing less. And definitely not an attack on TonyG or anyone else.
Last I looked this one says "Turbo".
As for the conversion, I stated...I believe 3 times...that I am in the early stages of doing one myself. Just don't feel a Porsche Turbo forum is the place to discuss it, that is what the hybrid forum is for. As well as the claim that is still a "true" Porsche...it just simply would not be. No matter if it is a smattering of parts, it was/is a Porsche. Period.
OR:
I guess a Cadillac is actually a Malibu, Jaguar is a Ford Contour, Mercedes CLK 320 is a Dodge Crossfire, Acura NSX is a Honda Accord, Pontiac G8 is a Corvette, Range Rover is a Ford Explorer, Porsche Cayman is a VW, Mercedes 500 is a Plymouth 300M, Audi is a Jetta, etc.....I could go on for days.
These are but a few examples of manufacturers who share technology, components and parts. Do these cars "barely" qualify to be called by their respective names because of these partnerships?
Just my opinion...just how I feel, nothing more, nothing less. And definitely not an attack on TonyG or anyone else.
Actually if you want to get really into the details, our cars are more a genuine Porsche than the 911. Yup, you read that correctly. Do a bit of research and you'll find that our hero Dr Porsche ripped off the design from Tatra, who previously may have indeed done a little plagiarism himself. Whereas our i4 comes from a total in house design being essentially half the 928 motor.
While this is all a moot point and indeed the rear engined cars have outlived ours convincingly, it's still a fact.
I'm not putting any of these guys like Tony or Travis down. Their cars are possibly examples of what might have become ours had the models lasted.
I've visited the Hybrid forums and there are a bunch of helpful and tech savvy guys on there as well.
It's all just another storm in a teacup on a forum full of keyboard warriors. lol. No harm no foul as you guys like to say.
While this is all a moot point and indeed the rear engined cars have outlived ours convincingly, it's still a fact.
I'm not putting any of these guys like Tony or Travis down. Their cars are possibly examples of what might have become ours had the models lasted.
I've visited the Hybrid forums and there are a bunch of helpful and tech savvy guys on there as well.
It's all just another storm in a teacup on a forum full of keyboard warriors. lol. No harm no foul as you guys like to say.
This really is an issue of like boost, or hate boost. If you hate boost, just doesnt make sense to me buy a turbo car and molest it. Less and less of them around. Im a preservationist.
04-10-2009, 11:44 PM
#152
Rennlist Member
Oh yeah, number of cylinders doesnt determine a "super car". Porsche has only made what? 2 " super cars"?
04-10-2009, 11:51 PM
#153
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Why dont you chevy lovers, sell your 944's to real enthusiasts, and go buy a vette. Your comparing an 80's high boost 2.5 to a NA V8, of course its more reliable. Compared to a 3.0 on pump gas, and relatively low boost, I really dont see it being that much more reliable. Slightly. A 3.0 can push 4-500 whp on pump gas. If the engine is fresh, should only need belts, and an oil change for a while....if not it probably wasnt built right. Oh but real gearheads only us welfare V8's. LOL PLEASE!!! Did you stumble in here from one of IB's vette forums somehow? Just click back a few times, im sure all the budweiser, mullets, and V8's await you. Stop trying to convince a bunch of Porsche enthusiasts, that they love chevy's.
and anyone who thinks that the chevy V8 isn't worth the hp/$ in performance increases seriously is beyond arguing with...find me a cam for the 944 that you can buy for ~$700 that increases HP by 100 with no other mods?
04-10-2009, 11:57 PM
#155
Quite a few of the electrical connectors throughtout the interior of the Cayenne have the blue oval on them. And Porsche designed the composite intake for the LS for GM.
Mark
You know i wasnt going to say this, especially on the turbo board BUT... I notice that its normally the 3.0L guys that get there panties in such a bunch about the LSx Cars and my opinion is that it has to do with the fact that people are spending the same money or less to swap in an LS and making more power. My car will be done for less than 10K but I know that is the exception not the rule. But this wasnt my origonal plan, I WAS going to do the 3.0L swap etc etc etc... But all the horror stories of unexplained failures with all forseeable precautions taken, I just cant risk what like 15K??? That just doesnt make sence to me. I can swap the stock LS in, have almost 400hp and about the same tq and have daily driver reliability... but still have a blast on the track, and you dont need any more proof that its competitive on the track then to watch any of Tony's vid's, sorry 400HP turbos arent doing that...
Mark
Mark
Mark,
You lost me a bit here.
I listed actual examples of current (and Past) cars that share/borrow substantial amounts of technology from each other to place on their respective models.
What Ford parts does the Cayenne utilise? And did not follow the LS analogy at all.
Any insight is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
PATRICK
You lost me a bit here.
I listed actual examples of current (and Past) cars that share/borrow substantial amounts of technology from each other to place on their respective models.
What Ford parts does the Cayenne utilise? And did not follow the LS analogy at all.
Any insight is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
PATRICK
Exactly +1My 3.0 is all 944. Do your homework. Well, my crank is 968, but the same parts bin. You making those comments is going out on a limb. Seems your 944/68 history/knowledge aint so good. Im all porsche baby. As Ive said to each there own. Ive dealt with renegade hybrids, they can never stop talking about how crappy our engines are. Mostly cause they wanna sell kits. Go ahead molest whats left of our cars. Please try to do an 86' at least. As Ive said to each there own. Seems you have a personal problem. Thats too bad. People come here all the time and **** on our engines, say they suck. Its a constant battle for our cars because they have "puny" 4 bangers. People like you are always ****ting on them. I dont go to a porsche forum to hear people **** on our engines, and try to convince us the V8's are the end all be all. If I wanted that Id be on the hybrid forum. So dont come at me like, i went looking for trouble, I suppose we should just keep quiet while our cars get bashed. In our own forum. Well guess what? Aint gonna happen. 3.0 OWNZ. ALL PORSCHE, SUCKAS.
+1 Nothing personal Tony, you do beat your chest about your V8 quite a bit tho, and try to sneer at Porsche engines.(on a porsche forum of all places) Im sure your V8 gets up, Ill be towing mine through LA sometime this year, maybe well see just what you have over a 3.0. I mean this all in good faith, and sportsmanship brother. No offense, no defense.
Couldnt agree more.
This really is an issue of like boost, or hate boost. If you hate boost, just doesnt make sense to me buy a turbo car and molest it. Less and less of them around. Im a preservationist.
+1 Nothing personal Tony, you do beat your chest about your V8 quite a bit tho, and try to sneer at Porsche engines.(on a porsche forum of all places) Im sure your V8 gets up, Ill be towing mine through LA sometime this year, maybe well see just what you have over a 3.0. I mean this all in good faith, and sportsmanship brother. No offense, no defense.
Couldnt agree more.
This really is an issue of like boost, or hate boost. If you hate boost, just doesnt make sense to me buy a turbo car and molest it. Less and less of them around. Im a preservationist.
You know i wasnt going to say this, especially on the turbo board BUT... I notice that its normally the 3.0L guys that get there panties in such a bunch about the LSx Cars and my opinion is that it has to do with the fact that people are spending the same money or less to swap in an LS and making more power. My car will be done for less than 10K but I know that is the exception not the rule. But this wasnt my origonal plan, I WAS going to do the 3.0L swap etc etc etc... But all the horror stories of unexplained failures with all forseeable precautions taken, I just cant risk what like 15K??? That just doesnt make sence to me. I can swap the stock LS in, have almost 400hp and about the same tq and have daily driver reliability... but still have a blast on the track, and you dont need any more proof that its competitive on the track then to watch any of Tony's vid's, sorry 400HP turbos arent doing that...
Mark
04-10-2009, 11:59 PM
#156
Race Director
i think in terms of reliability its that you know the engine design is solid and isnt prone to fail for seemingly silly reasons (#2 bearing, milkshake mixing, etc) and that if something does in fact go wrong you dont have to spend $5k on a rebuild and wait a week for parts to show up.
and anyone who thinks that the chevy V8 isn't worth the hp/$ in performance increases seriously is beyond arguing with...find me a cam for the 944 that you can buy for ~$700 that increases HP by 100 with no other mods?
and anyone who thinks that the chevy V8 isn't worth the hp/$ in performance increases seriously is beyond arguing with...find me a cam for the 944 that you can buy for ~$700 that increases HP by 100 with no other mods?
04-11-2009, 12:00 AM
#157
Rennlist Member
i think in terms of reliability its that you know the engine design is solid and isnt prone to fail for seemingly silly reasons (#2 bearing, milkshake mixing, etc) and that if something does in fact go wrong you dont have to spend $5k on a rebuild and wait a week for parts to show up.
and anyone who thinks that the chevy V8 isn't worth the hp/$ in performance increases seriously is beyond arguing with...find me a cam for the 944 that you can buy for ~$700 that increases HP by 100 with no other mods?
and anyone who thinks that the chevy V8 isn't worth the hp/$ in performance increases seriously is beyond arguing with...find me a cam for the 944 that you can buy for ~$700 that increases HP by 100 with no other mods?
04-11-2009, 12:08 AM
#158
Rennlist Member
Quite a few of the electrical connectors throughtout the interior of the Cayenne have the blue oval on them. And Porsche designed the composite intake for the LS for GM.
Mark
You know i wasnt going to say this, especially on the turbo board BUT... I notice that its normally the 3.0L guys that get there panties in such a bunch about the LSx Cars and my opinion is that it has to do with the fact that people are spending the same money or less to swap in an LS and making more power. My car will be done for less than 10K but I know that is the exception not the rule. But this wasnt my origonal plan, I WAS going to do the 3.0L swap etc etc etc... But all the horror stories of unexplained failures with all forseeable precautions taken, I just cant risk what like 15K??? That just doesnt make sence to me. I can swap the stock LS in, have almost 400hp and about the same tq and have daily driver reliability... but still have a blast on the track, and you dont need any more proof that its competitive on the track then to watch any of Tony's vid's, sorry 400HP turbos arent doing that...
Mark
Mark
You know i wasnt going to say this, especially on the turbo board BUT... I notice that its normally the 3.0L guys that get there panties in such a bunch about the LSx Cars and my opinion is that it has to do with the fact that people are spending the same money or less to swap in an LS and making more power. My car will be done for less than 10K but I know that is the exception not the rule. But this wasnt my origonal plan, I WAS going to do the 3.0L swap etc etc etc... But all the horror stories of unexplained failures with all forseeable precautions taken, I just cant risk what like 15K??? That just doesnt make sence to me. I can swap the stock LS in, have almost 400hp and about the same tq and have daily driver reliability... but still have a blast on the track, and you dont need any more proof that its competitive on the track then to watch any of Tony's vid's, sorry 400HP turbos arent doing that...
Mark
04-11-2009, 12:11 AM
#159
Rainman
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
because i cannot afford the LS swap but the supercharger is much much more affordable and i enjoy a good project. im not looking to make a gazillion HP with the 944 motor, just enough that i think it wont be too adversely affected. in addition the stock camming with a roots-type will give it a PHENOMENAL midrange and a better low-end.
im not saying that im not curious about what the outer limits are with the 944 motor, id love to build a 3.2L 16v low-compression twin-charged dry-sumped 8000RPM motor someday but that would take probably 30,000 to get to.
if i do end up blowing up my 2.5L, i will retire the 944 for a while and eventually i will do a swap of some sort, probably a vortec v8 or something that i can buy for $600, do some fab work myself and be done with it.
i just like tinkering, and i wanted something a little bit different than a 951.
i have no doubt that a 951 motor can be taken to 300hp reliably. but when the numbers start looking like 4xxHP i think a V8 is the better route.
im not saying that im not curious about what the outer limits are with the 944 motor, id love to build a 3.2L 16v low-compression twin-charged dry-sumped 8000RPM motor someday but that would take probably 30,000 to get to.
if i do end up blowing up my 2.5L, i will retire the 944 for a while and eventually i will do a swap of some sort, probably a vortec v8 or something that i can buy for $600, do some fab work myself and be done with it.
i just like tinkering, and i wanted something a little bit different than a 951.
i have no doubt that a 951 motor can be taken to 300hp reliably. but when the numbers start looking like 4xxHP i think a V8 is the better route.
04-11-2009, 12:16 AM
#160
Mark
04-11-2009, 12:21 AM
#161
Race Director
Where can this information be found...this is interesting.
Although I was talking more along the lines of sustantial items e.g. complete suspension or engine or tranny...or at least some type of driveline components being in the cars I mentioned.
A link would be great,
Thanks for the insight,
04-11-2009, 12:30 AM
#162
Where can this information be found...this is interesting.
Although I was talking more along the lines of sustantial items e.g. complete suspension or engine or tranny...or at least some type of driveline components being in the cars I mentioned.
A link would be great,
Thanks for the insight,
Although I was talking more along the lines of sustantial items e.g. complete suspension or engine or tranny...or at least some type of driveline components being in the cars I mentioned.
A link would be great,
Thanks for the insight,
And along those lines, truth be told all of the current production Porsche's are Porsche for the main components, some of the Cayenne is VW but not as much as you would think.
Mark
04-11-2009, 12:38 AM
#163
Race Director
The connectors i can get a pic of. I have been with Porsche for a little over 2 years now and have heard about the LS intake time and time again, but i honestly wouldnt have the slightest clue on how to substantiate it. I can tell you, the people i have heard it from in PCNA I dont doubt the info, but i know that make is skeptical.... Sorry
And along those lines, truth be told all of the current production Porsche's are Porsche for the main components, some of the Cayenne is VW but not as much as you would think.
Mark
And along those lines, truth be told all of the current production Porsche's are Porsche for the main components, some of the Cayenne is VW but not as much as you would think.
Mark
No worries about being "skeptical", I was intrigued, that is all. I'll do some research on my end...that is very interesting.
And if you don't mind some pics of the connectors would be great. Do you know what they are used for? Electrical devices (interior)? Or sensors, maybe? You can send them to my e-mail if you don't want to post them here, thanks for the info.
CPRacing_Aero@live.com
04-11-2009, 12:45 AM
#164
Rennlist Member
Who said i found one near the end of its life??? I am just going by what i have seen and heard on this board for 10 years. I know all about maintaining a car seeing as i work on P-cars for a living... I also daily drive my 944 which currently runs like a top. I can understand you having an issue with the perception of the v-8 being driven down your throat, but what pissess me off is when someone tells me, or someone else that their opinion or ideas are wrong... Who the hell are you to tell me that i am making the wrong decision? Its my car and i will do with it what i want. But i dont go and tell everyone thats building a 3.0 that there wasting there money, GREAT do it, ILL help... to each his own, I would rather it be that way. If you know that the LS swap just pushes your little buttons why didnt you just skip right over this thread all together?? Who made you king of Rennlist to tell somone to come into a thread that obviosuly is not of your liking and have you tell him to go to the hybrids board?
Mark
Mark
oooh big bad V8's Im shivering, how could my puny 4 banger ever keep up. Pffft. I souped up a 944t just because its the bastard child. Smoking them with my puny 4 banger poor mans Porsche turns my crank.
Last edited by tone3721; 04-11-2009 at 01:08 AM.
04-11-2009, 01:25 AM
#165
ITs gonna **** off the purists... See, in the end its all for the same goal. Like i said before, I would not hesitate to help a single person on here with anything from a 924 2.0 to a 968 3.0... I know more about some models than others, but always willing to learn and make some friends...Mark