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It's been an awesome first DE season driving my 500 HP 3.0L turbo. I wanted to share my experiences for the year with anyone here considering building this motor for track use. It's a challenging driver's car and will keep you on your toes at these power levels.
The torque improvement over the 2.5L is amazing. The 86 turbo always felt lethargic off boost especially compared to say a Cayman. The 3.0L bottom end has plenty and for street driving feels just right. At the track, both cars are on boost where you don't notice it as much except for slow chicanes or AX style turns.
I worried that the GTX3582 gen2 would be too much turbo for this asthmatic 8v head but no. The power feels flat. The power band is right where I want it. No sudden boost issues in the middle of a corner. The turbine size and it's related back pressure are a limiting factor for this motor currently, but to go larger would just make the power curve less usable we think. It'd be hard to find a better match, but maybe the newer G series should be considered. I bet there is a good matching EFR as well.
I don't notice the conversion to an electronic throttle body at all. I was really concerned this would add lag or affect the purity of the driving experience but nope. I don't feel like I'm fighting the car at all. It just does what I ask when I ask it. I left a flat response curved programmed in.
I run about 400 wheel on 93 octane and 500 wheel on e85 and you can really feel the organ crushing difference. If I'm not careful, the wheels will spin in any gear except 5th on the corn juice. On pump gas the car eats base 997 GT3s no sweat. Power is great and for DE purposes I don't want to add any more. I may even turn the power down to give longevity a chance. The car is well behaved at 400, requires care at 500, but I wouldn't want to go much higher on R888Rs or other street tires. I have torque limiting functions enabled in the emtron which are there to prevent the transmission from grenading.
I'm using the webcam 274 and I was concerned about the slight overlap. I discussed with the tuner and the cooling effect of the overlap is beneficial in my case. The car runs HOT. At WGI, the motor spends most of a lap at over 1500F EGT, peaking to 1650. On a hot summer day, after 15-20m of driving, the car will over heat and I'll need to back off. This is with a giant custom aluminum radiator, and the lindsey 3x oil cooler, and the big garrett core FMIC. More work on front air ducting is needed for sure. And probably need more venting in the hood so the air has somewhere to go.
I asked the tuner about if the aftermarket intake could be a problem and if a stock unit might be better. The response was that the car makes great power as it is and that nothing stands out as needing to be changed. The limiting factors right now are EGT and exhaust back pressure due to the crossover pipe and general "wrong side" turbo layout of this car.
All the power is great but is showing the weaknesses of the chassis. High frequency wheel hop in the rear when the tires spin which happens on e85 if I'm pushing it. The car just can't brake anything like a modern car and on the 86 without ABS I tend to lock on occasion due to lack of skill, quick weight transfers from stiff springs, and the extra fast pace of this motor. Need to go to a slightly softer front spring to help give the brakes a chance I think.
We'll see what the longevity is like. I'm pushing 7200RPM. There's quite a lot of vibration around 3K with the balance shafts deleted. I had a weld failure in an aluminum expansion tank this year due to expansion and contraction, had a boost hose pop off, and had the driver rear axle nut lose torque. The starter heat shield vibrated, cracked, and fell off somewhere.
I was worried I made a mistake by not going the 16v route. But having e85 as an option seems to make up for it. I couldn't be happier with the power level. No doubt 16v is the right move if you want to max it out. I wouldn't shy away from the 8v path for a more budget friendly / less fabrication heavy kind of build though if you're not doing competitive motorsport.
Pleased to say that the 2nd 16V intake is done. It is even slightly better balanced than the first one as it flows 352 +-3 cfm per runner. The customer required a raw finish so it was simply sandblasted.
Pleased to say that the 2nd 16V intake is done. It is even slightly better balanced than the first one as it flows 352 +-3 cfm per runner. The customer required a raw finish so it was simply sandblasted.
Looks great! How does it feel compared to your other cars?
Feels great! The 3L just feels so much less lethargic in the tight/slow corners over the 2.5L. Lots of torque in it. The turbo isn't surprising me in the corners. It's well behaved. The 2.0L in the Evo X feels dead off-boost and it's a heavy pig of a car. The 997.1 GT3 feels less nimble. The other cars out brake this one by miles though, and feel much more well planted. The 944 feels playful and wants to be thrown around a bit. It's well behaved even at these power levels. It just doesn't feel modern at all like the other ones so isn't as easy to drive. Feel wise, it's closer to the 987.1 cayman S I had except with double the power. I just need to sort the brakes better.
Feels great! The 3L just feels so much less lethargic in the tight/slow corners over the 2.5L. Lots of torque in it. The turbo isn't surprising me in the corners. It's well behaved. The 2.0L in the Evo X feels dead off-boost and it's a heavy pig of a car. The 997.1 GT3 feels less nimble. The other cars out brake this one by miles though, and feel much more well planted. The 944 feels playful and wants to be thrown around a bit. It's well behaved even at these power levels. It just doesn't feel modern at all like the other ones so isn't as easy to drive. Feel wise, it's closer to the 987.1 cayman S I had except with double the power. I just need to sort the brakes better.
interesting.
haven't driven a 944 with the kind of power you've got on tap but have done some 300whp range cars.
a few years back i got some track time in a 991GT3RS - sure it was crazy fast and the brakes were good but you could tell the electronics were doing a lot of the footwork and the PDK just made it feel like you were only in charge of the steering wheel. maybe more time would change that, but kind of numb at the end of that day.
It’s been a crazy long time agi that I was on Rennlist and I have no idea what has become of the forum.
After a lot of years of doing nothing, I got tired of having a non-running car in the garage so decided to change that.
By now the complete triple 044 fuel system had been finished, oil system is ready (apart from putting oil in the car), cooling system needs 2 welds and then thats finished too.
Wiring harness is done, relocating the battery is done.. I am still waiting for a price for the digital dash/display.
Attaching some pictures for visibility
Fuel system in engine bay Fuel system underneath the car Coolant, windscreen washer and powersteering reservoirs Relocated battery in the trunk New oil filler location, still need the bung to put into the engine bay, will make it on the lathe tomorrow Almost done New hoofd fitted Almost ready to bring it to the garage on Tuesday to get the final bits finished
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,505
Likes: 37
From: Marietta, NY
Originally Posted by Dutch944
It’s been a crazy long time agi that I was on Rennlist and I have no idea what has become of the forum.
After a lot of years of doing nothing, I got tired of having a non-running car in the garage so decided to change that.
By now the complete triple 044 fuel system had been finished, oil system is ready (apart from putting oil in the car), cooling system needs 2 welds and then thats finished too.
Wiring harness is done, relocating the battery is done.. I am still waiting for a price for the digital dash/display.
Attaching some pictures for visibility
Fuel system in engine bay
Fuel system underneath the car
Coolant, windscreen washer and powersteering reservoirs Relocated battery in the trunk
New oil filler location, still need the bung to put into the engine bay, will make it on the lathe tomorrow
Almost done
New hoofd fitted
Almost ready to bring it to the garage on Tuesday to get the final bits finished
looks good....except the strap on the battery - that woudl fail Tech at most tracks in the US!
looks good....except the strap on the battery - that woudl fail Tech at most tracks in the US!
The rules here just say that it needs to be secured properly, how is not defined.
I’ve put rubber sheet underneath it to prevent it from shifting. The strap is there to keep it down.
Maybe at some point I will make a metal strap, but for now I just want to get it approved for the road and tuned.
It's been an awesome first DE season driving my 500 HP 3.0L turbo. I wanted to share my experiences for the year with anyone here considering building this motor for track use. It's a challenging driver's car and will keep you on your toes at these power levels.
The torque improvement over the 2.5L is amazing. The 86 turbo always felt lethargic off boost especially compared to say a Cayman. The 3.0L bottom end has plenty and for street driving feels just right. At the track, both cars are on boost where you don't notice it as much except for slow chicanes or AX style turns.
I worried that the GTX3582 gen2 would be too much turbo for this asthmatic 8v head but no. The power feels flat. The power band is right where I want it. No sudden boost issues in the middle of a corner. The turbine size and it's related back pressure are a limiting factor for this motor currently, but to go larger would just make the power curve less usable we think. It'd be hard to find a better match, but maybe the newer G series should be considered. I bet there is a good matching EFR as well.
I don't notice the conversion to an electronic throttle body at all. I was really concerned this would add lag or affect the purity of the driving experience but nope. I don't feel like I'm fighting the car at all. It just does what I ask when I ask it. I left a flat response curved programmed in.
I run about 400 wheel on 93 octane and 500 wheel on e85 and you can really feel the organ crushing difference. If I'm not careful, the wheels will spin in any gear except 5th on the corn juice. On pump gas the car eats base 997 GT3s no sweat. Power is great and for DE purposes I don't want to add any more. I may even turn the power down to give longevity a chance. The car is well behaved at 400, requires care at 500, but I wouldn't want to go much higher on R888Rs or other street tires. I have torque limiting functions enabled in the emtron which are there to prevent the transmission from grenading.
I'm using the webcam 274 and I was concerned about the slight overlap. I discussed with the tuner and the cooling effect of the overlap is beneficial in my case. The car runs HOT. At WGI, the motor spends most of a lap at over 1500F EGT, peaking to 1650. On a hot summer day, after 15-20m of driving, the car will over heat and I'll need to back off. This is with a giant custom aluminum radiator, and the lindsey 3x oil cooler, and the big garrett core FMIC. More work on front air ducting is needed for sure. And probably need more venting in the hood so the air has somewhere to go.
I asked the tuner about if the aftermarket intake could be a problem and if a stock unit might be better. The response was that the car makes great power as it is and that nothing stands out as needing to be changed. The limiting factors right now are EGT and exhaust back pressure due to the crossover pipe and general "wrong side" turbo layout of this car.
All the power is great but is showing the weaknesses of the chassis. High frequency wheel hop in the rear when the tires spin which happens on e85 if I'm pushing it. The car just can't brake anything like a modern car and on the 86 without ABS I tend to lock on occasion due to lack of skill, quick weight transfers from stiff springs, and the extra fast pace of this motor. Need to go to a slightly softer front spring to help give the brakes a chance I think.
We'll see what the longevity is like. I'm pushing 7200RPM. There's quite a lot of vibration around 3K with the balance shafts deleted. I had a weld failure in an aluminum expansion tank this year due to expansion and contraction, had a boost hose pop off, and had the driver rear axle nut lose torque. The starter heat shield vibrated, cracked, and fell off somewhere.
I was worried I made a mistake by not going the 16v route. But having e85 as an option seems to make up for it. I couldn't be happier with the power level. No doubt 16v is the right move if you want to max it out. I wouldn't shy away from the 8v path for a more budget friendly / less fabrication heavy kind of build though if you're not doing competitive motorsport.
You can certainly see the added tq which gives the easier high speeds without revving higher and using more boost that a 2.5 would require. What's the suspension and tyre setup? What brakes? Is it still a street car? If not perhaps some aero would help too although yes, hood vents even if it's a road car will improve frontal downforce. I'd also humbly suggest breaking the habit of shuffle steering. The 2:50pm or 10mins to 3 clock position on the wheel is better in every way. You should be able to negotiate all turns without shuffling. Unless, you have really high levels of understeer into slow-medium corners which necessitates redistributing your hands just to make the corner. Unlikely but it can happen if you have a suspension or tyre size issue. I think the turbo is a good mix for the 3lt 8v. Things do look a little hot though.
Excellent work Dutch there’s a lot of great work done there on your 44 some engineering for sure to make it a more powerful handful ha ha. The intake runners are they all original S2 or did you fab new ones right down to the injector bungs?
also I like your AOS delete to make room for new intake you don’t happen to have any pictures of those breather and oil fill mods mounted on side of block before intake went on do you? Thank you for sharing
You can certainly see the added tq which gives the easier high speeds without revving higher and using more boost that a 2.5 would require. What's the suspension and tyre setup? What brakes? Is it still a street car? If not perhaps some aero would help too although yes, hood vents even if it's a road car will improve frontal downforce. I'd also humbly suggest breaking the habit of shuffle steering. The 2:50pm or 10mins to 3 clock position on the wheel is better in every way. You should be able to negotiate all turns without shuffling. Unless, you have really high levels of understeer into slow-medium corners which necessitates redistributing your hands just to make the corner. Unlikely but it can happen if you have a suspension or tyre size issue. I think the turbo is a good mix for the 3lt 8v. Things do look a little hot though.
Bilstein cups with 600/850, all sphericals, all the fixings. I think the 600s are too strong in the front so I'm backing down to 450 in the spring to see how I like that.
Brakes are pagid yellows on "medium black" s4s in front, two piece rotors. Tires last year were r888rs. I think I mentioned it earlier, but braking is the biggest let down. The fronts lock up too easily. Hoping the lower spring rate will help that too by softening the weight transfer a bit to let the tires catch up.
Needs aero yeah, I have a big splitter nearly finished on the front for this season. No wing yet, that's next once I sort out the 50 other problems.
"hood vents even if it's a road car will improve frontal downforce"
oh really? that's new to me, thanks for the tip.
"I'd also humbly suggest breaking the habit of shuffle steering."
Hah! You're absolutely right. This is a huge problem for me. I get called out on it quite a bit. This issue though is that I physically cannot cross over my arms. If that should preclude me from participating, I am not sure
"Things do look a little hot though"
Crazy hot, all year. I think the hood vents will help a bit. I think the front wing is going to help too. And I'll be improving the radiator ducting. I need to modify all the under panels to fit under the car still. There's always so much to do and so little time!
Hey player your car is well done congrats on all the hard work, do you have a 5/33 brake bias valve and updated 951 master cylinder on your car for more even brake fluid transfer? What about rear pad material is it the same yellow? Also have you considered installing ABS I know you have a ‘86 so a little more involved but you already have some of the later suspension bits in there so getting the right components may not be that difficult. I know the later ‘86 951 cars had the bosses for speed senders just not milled out in front spindles or trailing arms in back much like the early ‘87 951. A few have milled there suspension out to retrofit but most like me just opt to get the later suspension and upgrade to late offset as well. I have done this twice on earlier cars it’s pretty straight forward I pulled the relay wiring out of a donor car all the way under dashboard it’s not in the main cluster of wires so it all comes out pretty easy. I bet I had 3hrs removing it all inside and out then about 1.5 days installing it, the fender removal on your car is a bit of a pain to mount pump. The plus side is it gives you ultimate late braking and no flat spots.
Last edited by boost feen; 02-17-2022 at 12:41 AM.
Hey player your car is well done congrats on all the hard work, do you have a 5/33 brake bias valve and updated 951 master cylinder on your car for more even brake fluid transfer? What about rear pad material is it the same yellow? Also have you considered installing ABS I know you have a ‘86 so a little more involved but you already have some of the later suspension bits in there so getting the right components may not be that difficult. I know the later ‘86 951 cars had the bosses for speed senders just not milled out in front spindles or trailing arms in back much like the early ‘87 951. A few have milled there suspension out to retrofit but most like me just opt to get the later suspension and upgrade to late offset as well. I have done this twice on earlier cars it’s pretty straight forward I pulled the relay wiring out of a donor car all the way under dashboard it’s not in the main cluster of wires so it all comes out pretty easy. I bet I had 3hrs removing it all inside and out then about 1.5 days installing it, the fender removal on your car is a bit of a pain to mount pump. The plus side is it gives you ultimate late braking and no flat spots.
Thanks. I had the 5/33 valve on the car, but I was getting rear lockup with the setup last year. The stiffer spring rates and valving really changed everything. I had been fine with the 5/33 before. Went back to stock. I have an adjustable bias valve I still need to mount in there. Yeah I have the latest master cylinder too. I also picked up a mercedes one with slightly bigger pistons if I need a stiffer pedal. My problem has been lock up though.
I may install ABS yeah. I'm not sure if there are aftermarket options for that but I need to explore it. I kind of wouldn't mind re-building all the brake lines anyway. Switching to late offset isn't too much of an issue, I already have a lot of the parts. I'd miss the 16" fuchs but might be able to get some forgeline 18s in the future. Over all the ABS conversion might actually save money on tire damage in the long run. I've also considered getting an 87+ shell and just starting over, but do a full rebuild, custom cage, get everything welded up nice. I'll just enjoy what I got next year though. It's a fun technical car out there.
10-02-2021 | 01:15 PM
