Dyno results for Georges car-529WHP @ 23.4 psi
06-19-2008, 09:06 PM
#48
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I am sure Chris wont mind me answering this since we have both been running TEC systems for years.After everything is said and done(terminated harness,sensors,adaptors,brackets,etc......... you are looking close to $3500 range and then there is the tuning which can range from $500 on up.So it is not a cheap propostion.
Installing the TEC-II onto my 944 turbo close to 10 years ago was one of the best things I ever did to the car.It turned it from a troublesome money pit to a smooth running,trouble free, street monster.Ok, it was not a monster compared to Georges car but it was enough to beat just about anything I ever came across on the street.It was different times back then.Chris and I used to have internet wars and now we are good friends.Back then Scott Gomes was one of the only guys running Electromotives and I basically figured out how to make it work and tune it from scratch since I did not know of him.MAF was the common thing and running stand alone put you into a different league.Now it is pretty common to run a stand alone system.And ofcourse the TEC's keep getting better and better
06-19-2008, 09:23 PM
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so basically their is no difference in pricing between the TEC3r and the GT.
I am sure Chris wont mind me answering this since we have both been running TEC systems for years.After everything is said and done(terminated harness,sensors,adaptors,brackets,etc......... you are looking close to $3500 range and then there is the tuning which can range from $500 on up.So it is not a cheap propostion.
Installing the TEC-II onto my 944 turbo close to 10 years ago was one of the best things I ever did to the car.It turned it from a troublesome money pit to a smooth running,trouble free, street monster.Ok, it was not a monster compared to Georges car but it was enough to beat just about anything I ever came across on the street.It was different times back then.Chris and I used to have internet wars and now we are good friends.Back then Scott Gomes was one of the only guys running Electromotives and I basically figured out how to make it work and tune it from scratch since I did not know of him.MAF was the common thing and running stand alone put you into a different league.Now it is pretty common to run a stand alone system.And ofcourse the TEC's keep getting better and better
Installing the TEC-II onto my 944 turbo close to 10 years ago was one of the best things I ever did to the car.It turned it from a troublesome money pit to a smooth running,trouble free, street monster.Ok, it was not a monster compared to Georges car but it was enough to beat just about anything I ever came across on the street.It was different times back then.Chris and I used to have internet wars and now we are good friends.Back then Scott Gomes was one of the only guys running Electromotives and I basically figured out how to make it work and tune it from scratch since I did not know of him.MAF was the common thing and running stand alone put you into a different league.Now it is pretty common to run a stand alone system.And ofcourse the TEC's keep getting better and better
06-19-2008, 10:56 PM
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Tim or George, did you have a knock sensor hooked up and were you datalogging the dyno runs? if you did which knock sensor Bosch or GM? Not sure if I saw what compression ratio you have but would be interesting to know.
06-19-2008, 11:56 PM
#52
Drifting
Hey Joe,
You have a better breathing head than my 2.7 NA head. Your motor should have more potential assuming that the internals are similar. I've known Rains for many years, and I know he builds good motors. If you are considering additional mods to your car, you are ahead of the game. My goals were to have a 450whp car with similar tq using 91 fuel with factory idle and driveability during our 110 degree summers. Not a small request, but I think we got there.
I've had other turbo 4 banger cars with much better 16V heads. They just flow better and have the potential of much more top end than any 8V head. I couldn't get my 2.0 EVO to ever ping. I was modest with the boost, but 28psi on 91 fuel is pretty damn aggressive. The EVO motor at these boost levels was OK for quick sprints. Track driving was another story. Heat soak was a big issue, so 20 psi seemed to be the limits for consistent real boost levels, even with race gas.
You have a great platform with plenty of power. If you are considering more power, I would start with a good ignition system, then the best cooling components. First would be a custom alum radiator, then a front mounted intercooler, then a good oil cooler.
Can't wait to hear how your new transmission is working out. Did Chris finish with your new 3.1R&P six speed box? I miss having Chris 2 hours away. His shop, Technodyne is dearly missed out here. I really enjoyed watching him in his silver 3.0 951 spank at the tracks in Phoenix. He was number one in points in NASA for many years. He had one of the original 3.0 968 motors from Porsche in that car. Great driver in a good car.
Regards,
George
You have a better breathing head than my 2.7 NA head. Your motor should have more potential assuming that the internals are similar. I've known Rains for many years, and I know he builds good motors. If you are considering additional mods to your car, you are ahead of the game. My goals were to have a 450whp car with similar tq using 91 fuel with factory idle and driveability during our 110 degree summers. Not a small request, but I think we got there.
I've had other turbo 4 banger cars with much better 16V heads. They just flow better and have the potential of much more top end than any 8V head. I couldn't get my 2.0 EVO to ever ping. I was modest with the boost, but 28psi on 91 fuel is pretty damn aggressive. The EVO motor at these boost levels was OK for quick sprints. Track driving was another story. Heat soak was a big issue, so 20 psi seemed to be the limits for consistent real boost levels, even with race gas.
You have a great platform with plenty of power. If you are considering more power, I would start with a good ignition system, then the best cooling components. First would be a custom alum radiator, then a front mounted intercooler, then a good oil cooler.
Can't wait to hear how your new transmission is working out. Did Chris finish with your new 3.1R&P six speed box? I miss having Chris 2 hours away. His shop, Technodyne is dearly missed out here. I really enjoyed watching him in his silver 3.0 951 spank at the tracks in Phoenix. He was number one in points in NASA for many years. He had one of the original 3.0 968 motors from Porsche in that car. Great driver in a good car.
Regards,
George
That's fantastic George! Great job Tim! That motor looks exactly like my motor would be if I could run 23.5 psi. At 21psi, I'm at 480. I don't think I could run 23.5 without blowing something. Great job guys. Now lets hope the tranny holds up. Mine didn't. That's a screamin' motor. Let us know how it keeps cool in the desert heat. Jeremy down there runs a Griffin radiator and says he can run in traffic in 120F with no problems. I run stock and in case you do too, I get a tad warm during the day.
06-20-2008, 01:05 AM
#53
Rennlist Member
Hey Joe,
You have a better breathing head than my 2.7 NA head. Your motor should have more potential assuming that the internals are similar. I've known Rains for many years, and I know he builds good motors. If you are considering additional mods to your car, you are ahead of the game. My goals were to have a 450whp car with similar tq using 91 fuel with factory idle and driveability during our 110 degree summers. Not a small request, but I think we got there.
I've had other turbo 4 banger cars with much better 16V heads. They just flow better and have the potential of much more top end than any 8V head. I couldn't get my 2.0 EVO to ever ping. I was modest with the boost, but 28psi on 91 fuel is pretty damn aggressive. The EVO motor at these boost levels was OK for quick sprints. Track driving was another story. Heat soak was a big issue, so 20 psi seemed to be the limits for consistent real boost levels, even with race gas.
You have a great platform with plenty of power. If you are considering more power, I would start with a good ignition system, then the best cooling components. First would be a custom alum radiator, then a front mounted intercooler, then a good oil cooler.
Can't wait to hear how your new transmission is working out. Did Chris finish with your new 3.1R&P six speed box? I miss having Chris 2 hours away. His shop, Technodyne is dearly missed out here. I really enjoyed watching him in his silver 3.0 951 spank at the tracks in Phoenix. He was number one in points in NASA for many years. He had one of the original 3.0 968 motors from Porsche in that car. Great driver in a good car.
Regards,
George
You have a better breathing head than my 2.7 NA head. Your motor should have more potential assuming that the internals are similar. I've known Rains for many years, and I know he builds good motors. If you are considering additional mods to your car, you are ahead of the game. My goals were to have a 450whp car with similar tq using 91 fuel with factory idle and driveability during our 110 degree summers. Not a small request, but I think we got there.
I've had other turbo 4 banger cars with much better 16V heads. They just flow better and have the potential of much more top end than any 8V head. I couldn't get my 2.0 EVO to ever ping. I was modest with the boost, but 28psi on 91 fuel is pretty damn aggressive. The EVO motor at these boost levels was OK for quick sprints. Track driving was another story. Heat soak was a big issue, so 20 psi seemed to be the limits for consistent real boost levels, even with race gas.
You have a great platform with plenty of power. If you are considering more power, I would start with a good ignition system, then the best cooling components. First would be a custom alum radiator, then a front mounted intercooler, then a good oil cooler.
Can't wait to hear how your new transmission is working out. Did Chris finish with your new 3.1R&P six speed box? I miss having Chris 2 hours away. His shop, Technodyne is dearly missed out here. I really enjoyed watching him in his silver 3.0 951 spank at the tracks in Phoenix. He was number one in points in NASA for many years. He had one of the original 3.0 968 motors from Porsche in that car. Great driver in a good car.
Regards,
George
When you say you have bigger intake valves, are they bigger than stock 2.7? My head has 951 exhaust and stock 2.7 intakes, but I sure don't expect 500+ hp.
I also have 83 lb injectors, so very helpful to hear about their practical limits. Do you know how much hp they made before you had to exceed 3bar fuel pressure?
I actually went to Garrity's 951 engine building class, complete with bbq brats lunch, quite a while ago... Is he here reading this.... ? Although it took me a while, his class did help as I assembled my motor.
06-20-2008, 01:38 AM
#54
Drifting
Hi Tom,
Garrity doesn't read the lists. I can't respond to DF's boost hitting sooner, but I can state where the 83lb injectors ran out of flow. Glad to hear that Garrity helped you in the past. I like him and his work. He is a very talented engineer and he did a great job on my motor.
We ran out of fuel at 20psi of boost with this setup. This was with 117 degrees of intake temps with about 480 wheel hp. The TEC GT couldn't give the injectors any more fuel. They hit 100% duty cycle at this hp level. Granted, this was a tuning dyno, and the numbers are about 15% less than an actual dynojet. They were at 100% duty cycle at this boost level using 110 octane fuel. Tim was able to increase the fuel pressure to compensate, but this was not ideal in any real world enviornment. With 1000cc injectors, we could have made the power with consistent relaible fuel pressure, as long as my fuel pump was up to the task. With 1000cc injectors, we would have seen about 600+ whp. Too much for my car in it's current state.
Yes, my intake valves are bigger than stock. PM me and I'll give you the particulars, but it really doesn't matter with these 8V heads. Well it does, but I told Garrity I'd keep some things off line.
To answer your question, you can get about 480 true wheel hp out of 83lb injectors at 3 bar fuel pressure, using race fuel. Anything above this is just excessive fuel pressure, and that won't cut any track enviornment. I've seen stock 951 injectors hit 400whp, but you probably know this is just excessive fuel pressure, not consistent reliable injector capacity. We don't want puking, hot injectors spitting fuel because we are stuffing their throats with bile.
I only know a little about what you are building, and you probably need more capacity than 83cc injectors. 1000cc injectors will flow up to 600whp.
Yeah, you can make the more power with less, but injectors are cheap compared to the results of relying of fuel pressure for the power you are seeking in your car.
Your project is amazing. Looking forward to seeing the results of your hard work.
Regards,
George
Garrity doesn't read the lists. I can't respond to DF's boost hitting sooner, but I can state where the 83lb injectors ran out of flow. Glad to hear that Garrity helped you in the past. I like him and his work. He is a very talented engineer and he did a great job on my motor.
We ran out of fuel at 20psi of boost with this setup. This was with 117 degrees of intake temps with about 480 wheel hp. The TEC GT couldn't give the injectors any more fuel. They hit 100% duty cycle at this hp level. Granted, this was a tuning dyno, and the numbers are about 15% less than an actual dynojet. They were at 100% duty cycle at this boost level using 110 octane fuel. Tim was able to increase the fuel pressure to compensate, but this was not ideal in any real world enviornment. With 1000cc injectors, we could have made the power with consistent relaible fuel pressure, as long as my fuel pump was up to the task. With 1000cc injectors, we would have seen about 600+ whp. Too much for my car in it's current state.
Yes, my intake valves are bigger than stock. PM me and I'll give you the particulars, but it really doesn't matter with these 8V heads. Well it does, but I told Garrity I'd keep some things off line.
To answer your question, you can get about 480 true wheel hp out of 83lb injectors at 3 bar fuel pressure, using race fuel. Anything above this is just excessive fuel pressure, and that won't cut any track enviornment. I've seen stock 951 injectors hit 400whp, but you probably know this is just excessive fuel pressure, not consistent reliable injector capacity. We don't want puking, hot injectors spitting fuel because we are stuffing their throats with bile.
I only know a little about what you are building, and you probably need more capacity than 83cc injectors. 1000cc injectors will flow up to 600whp.
Yeah, you can make the more power with less, but injectors are cheap compared to the results of relying of fuel pressure for the power you are seeking in your car.
Your project is amazing. Looking forward to seeing the results of your hard work.
Regards,
George
I suspect your turbo is making up the flow difference... My fuzzy recollection is that DF's boost hit sooner... no?
When you say you have bigger intake valves, are they bigger than stock 2.7? My head has 951 exhaust and stock 2.7 intakes, but I sure don't expect 500+ hp.
I also have 83 lb injectors, so very helpful to hear about their practical limits. Do you know how much hp they made before you had to exceed 3bar fuel pressure?
I actually went to Garrity's 951 engine building class, complete with bbq brats lunch, quite a while ago... Is he here reading this.... ? Although it took me a while, his class did help as I assembled my motor.
When you say you have bigger intake valves, are they bigger than stock 2.7? My head has 951 exhaust and stock 2.7 intakes, but I sure don't expect 500+ hp.
I also have 83 lb injectors, so very helpful to hear about their practical limits. Do you know how much hp they made before you had to exceed 3bar fuel pressure?
I actually went to Garrity's 951 engine building class, complete with bbq brats lunch, quite a while ago... Is he here reading this.... ? Although it took me a while, his class did help as I assembled my motor.
06-20-2008, 01:48 AM
#55
Drifting
Tom,
Know that the TEC GT will allow for full sequential injection for running much larger injectors for stock idle. You can program just about any injector size and get a stock idle with this setup.
When I go with larger injectors, we only have to add a sensor to the cam for full sequential. This doesn't make any more power, but you can idle as stock with 1500cc injectors. Amazing tuning capability. Run a crazy cam, huge injectors, and get a perfect idle with AC.
Fun Stuff,
George
Know that the TEC GT will allow for full sequential injection for running much larger injectors for stock idle. You can program just about any injector size and get a stock idle with this setup.
When I go with larger injectors, we only have to add a sensor to the cam for full sequential. This doesn't make any more power, but you can idle as stock with 1500cc injectors. Amazing tuning capability. Run a crazy cam, huge injectors, and get a perfect idle with AC.
Fun Stuff,
George
I suspect your turbo is making up the flow difference... My fuzzy recollection is that DF's boost hit sooner... no?
When you say you have bigger intake valves, are they bigger than stock 2.7? My head has 951 exhaust and stock 2.7 intakes, but I sure don't expect 500+ hp.
I also have 83 lb injectors, so very helpful to hear about their practical limits. Do you know how much hp they made before you had to exceed 3bar fuel pressure?
I actually went to Garrity's 951 engine building class, complete with bbq brats lunch, quite a while ago... Is he here reading this.... ? Although it took me a while, his class did help as I assembled my motor.
When you say you have bigger intake valves, are they bigger than stock 2.7? My head has 951 exhaust and stock 2.7 intakes, but I sure don't expect 500+ hp.
I also have 83 lb injectors, so very helpful to hear about their practical limits. Do you know how much hp they made before you had to exceed 3bar fuel pressure?
I actually went to Garrity's 951 engine building class, complete with bbq brats lunch, quite a while ago... Is he here reading this.... ? Although it took me a while, his class did help as I assembled my motor.
06-20-2008, 02:11 AM
#56
Rennlist Member
Hi Tom,
I only know a little about what you are building, and you probably need more capacity than 83cc injectors. 1000cc injectors will flow up to 600whp.
Yeah, you can make the more power with less, but injectors are cheap compared to the results of relying of fuel pressure for the power you are seeking in your car.
Your project is amazing. Looking forward to seeing the results of your hard work.
Regards,
George
I only know a little about what you are building, and you probably need more capacity than 83cc injectors. 1000cc injectors will flow up to 600whp.
Yeah, you can make the more power with less, but injectors are cheap compared to the results of relying of fuel pressure for the power you are seeking in your car.
Your project is amazing. Looking forward to seeing the results of your hard work.
Regards,
George
I trust you were running leaded gas, to get 110 octane. Do you not have O2 sensors? I always run 100 unleaded because I don't want to harm my narrow or wideband sensors -- how are you running 110?
06-20-2008, 02:13 AM
#57
Rennlist Member
Vitesse chip board idles like stock with 83 lb injectors. Now, adding Gomes' cam may change that...
Tom,
Know that the TEC GT will allow for full sequential injection for running much larger injectors for stock idle. You can program just about any injector size and get a stock idle with this setup.
When I go with larger injectors, we only have to add a sensor to the cam for full sequential. This doesn't make any more power, but you can idle as stock with 1500cc injectors. Amazing tuning capability. Run a crazy cam, huge injectors, and get a perfect idle with AC.
Fun Stuff,
George
Know that the TEC GT will allow for full sequential injection for running much larger injectors for stock idle. You can program just about any injector size and get a stock idle with this setup.
When I go with larger injectors, we only have to add a sensor to the cam for full sequential. This doesn't make any more power, but you can idle as stock with 1500cc injectors. Amazing tuning capability. Run a crazy cam, huge injectors, and get a perfect idle with AC.
Fun Stuff,
George
06-20-2008, 02:26 AM
#58
Drifting
Tom,
I'm spoiled. I have a business in Greer, AZ. www.antlerridge.com that allows cars registered there in Apache County to not have to go through smog. I never know that this property would bring such benefits!
Granted, my car doesn't actually live there, but it does spend enough time in the amazing mountain roads to be registered in that County. I don't know the particulars of smogging stand alone systems in CA, but Tim at www.speedforceracing.com does. Call Tim and find out what the particulars are to pass smog with systems that can pass any smog sniff with a few taps on the keyboard. Hey, my car only makes 90 WHP with 1500cc injectors!
With stand alone TEC or other systems, you can lean out enough to pass anything as long as there is no boost. Green emissions blowing E85 is just a few tuning keys with modern stand alone with proper injector capacity.
I can't help you here. I have no cat. I'm running like Lart!
George
I'm spoiled. I have a business in Greer, AZ. www.antlerridge.com that allows cars registered there in Apache County to not have to go through smog. I never know that this property would bring such benefits!
Granted, my car doesn't actually live there, but it does spend enough time in the amazing mountain roads to be registered in that County. I don't know the particulars of smogging stand alone systems in CA, but Tim at www.speedforceracing.com does. Call Tim and find out what the particulars are to pass smog with systems that can pass any smog sniff with a few taps on the keyboard. Hey, my car only makes 90 WHP with 1500cc injectors!
With stand alone TEC or other systems, you can lean out enough to pass anything as long as there is no boost. Green emissions blowing E85 is just a few tuning keys with modern stand alone with proper injector capacity.
I can't help you here. I have no cat. I'm running like Lart!
George
My motor is actually up and running. Heck, I've already exploded a tranny with the torque. I have a few more things to do before heading to the dyno (install Tim's exhaust, and Gomes' cam), so it is helpful to hear where you maxed out on the injectors. I was not planning for that much power, so should be ok. It's presently down, as Vitesse is reflashing the chip board. I've stayed away from stand-along because I just don't know how I'd get it smogged in CA that way in light of our "visual" smog exam, and Vitesse makes it too easy with its turbo/maf/management kit. I should make it to the dyno in the next few months, and will report back when I do.
I trust you were running leaded gas, to get 110 octane. Do you not have O2 sensors? I always run 100 unleaded because I don't want to harm my narrow or wideband sensors -- how are you running 110?
I trust you were running leaded gas, to get 110 octane. Do you not have O2 sensors? I always run 100 unleaded because I don't want to harm my narrow or wideband sensors -- how are you running 110?
06-20-2008, 02:43 AM
#59
Drifting
I got ahead of myself. Vitesse software will provide most of what you want. Most of the folks that I rely on here locally utilize Vitesse for their engine management.
I'm just one that wanted a new harness, and total control over my engine management.
I simply don't know how emissions will deal with stand along engine management out there in CA.
Prior to doing anything with your engine management, make sure that it will be compatible with your local laws.
George
I'm just one that wanted a new harness, and total control over my engine management.
I simply don't know how emissions will deal with stand along engine management out there in CA.
Prior to doing anything with your engine management, make sure that it will be compatible with your local laws.
George
06-20-2008, 06:17 AM
#60
Rennlist Member
I have to back up a bit. I reread and saw you have a 2.7 head and it's only an 8v. That is truly amazing George. Thanks for the tips on going for upgrades. I've been looking into it for some time now and am getting lots of tips and advise from many here. It's all appreciated. The tranny is coming along and Chris is ready when I pull the trigger. He's had my tranny for a year next month just waiting for a rebuild. He's a great guy. I'll keep you all posted when it's ready to go. When it's done we have to have a south west get together to check out everyone's car.
Hey Tom, when I get this six speed done, I'm having my 89Turbo S five speed rebuilt with Cryo treated gears, and the taller na fifth gear. It should hold for you for the power you have. Chris will be rebuilding it as well. Let me know if you are interested and if you'd rather have the stock fifth in it and I'll leave it. I just thought with your power and gas prices, the na fifth will be a better fit.
Sorry for the hijack. Really amazing car George. I really look forward to checking it out one day and to hear how cool it runs in the desert heat.
Hey Tom, when I get this six speed done, I'm having my 89Turbo S five speed rebuilt with Cryo treated gears, and the taller na fifth gear. It should hold for you for the power you have. Chris will be rebuilding it as well. Let me know if you are interested and if you'd rather have the stock fifth in it and I'll leave it. I just thought with your power and gas prices, the na fifth will be a better fit.
Sorry for the hijack. Really amazing car George. I really look forward to checking it out one day and to hear how cool it runs in the desert heat.