The best of the shelf solution at the moment has to be the 3.2 engine from Jon and Simon in my opinion but its not cheap. Marcus (raceboy) has got the righ idea with his 16v setup, if you can recreate what he has done its simple, cheap and very powerful. There are many ways to bake the cake....if I was in the US I would be thinking about a V8 as you guys are spoilt with the price of fuel there!

 

V8 would ruin the whole thing for me. I just think that a Porsche should have a Porsche engine in it. That is just me. Now a twin turbo Cayenne V8, hmmmmmm...

 

Under Pressure Performance. Build it once, build it right!

 

Considering that Milledge is out of the game and there are a few others missing, plus the poll isn't anonymous, I think it's all going exactly as we'd imagine.

 

Well, with that said, can we make the poll anonymous after the fact? Mods, can that be done? I don't want to skew my numbers by political or personal opinions possibly changing peoples minds from voting. I want the most honest poll. Maybe we should add some people, take some people off as they are no longer building motors. Anyone know if that can be done?

 

Can they supply an assembled shortblock alone ? Budget ?

 

Good question.

 

Since this is not a blind vote, at least you can ask questions to the voters.

Perhaps ask why people voted for their favorite tuner, ie.. have they had a motor built by them, how is it running, how was the service, was it worth the costs, worth the wait, did they get a build sheet, what type of motor was built, what was the application, etc...

Those types of questions are more important to me rather than a blind vote based on nothing other than assumptions.

 

Not true, he has setup a shop on the west coast. All is well .

http://www.jmengines.com/index.htm

Raj

 

Dave,
This is spot on. As can be seen by viewing the results, I voted for Milledge out of the choices as CEP wasn't on the list. Most appear to have voted for themselves, which I suppose is expected but must be taken with a grain of salt. Others who have voted for a particular vendor have long term projects in progress and I wish them all well. I've spent a significant amount of money with just about everyone on this list and made a very informed choice based upon what I've gotten (or not gotten) from them all, including a few very well liked Rennlist sponsors. Notable exception is Under Pressure Performance, I have no personal experience with this vendor or the 3.2L guys from the UK, though having seen some of both shop's work, I would generally trust.

Given the various custom stuff Dave/CEP has made for my build subsequent to problems I've had with others () and knowing what CEP has coming very soon for my build ( ) I would have chosen CEP from day 1 knowing what I know now. Since CEP wasn't on the list, I voted for Milledge as with Milledge (and yourself) you can always count on working with someone who pays attention to the details and gives you all of the information you need/want, including the build sheet, specifications on all custom parts, etc. You may pay more up front for your work or JME's work, but you get a high quality, fully documented product on a timeline that doesn't stretch across calendar years.

A race engine or high performance street engine is all about the details and sadly some people I've worked with in the past who are popular Rennlist vendors just did not pay attention to the details, or flat out looked me in the eye, lied to me, and charged me for work they did not do, or parts they have to this day never delivered.

The gory details of my experience with one of these vendors include the following:
1) Installed my bearings upside down and would have delivered the motor like this had a friend not noticed this when I posted pics of the engine build (thanks Jon!). The vendor corrected this issue and was apologetic but this still does not say much regarding attention to detail.
2) Charged me for labor performed on my crankshaft twice
3) Crankshaft was delivered without plugs after being crossdrilled. Vendor went to Home Depot, picked up external square head 1/8NPT brass plugs (which must be the worst thing you can do for crankshaft balance), red loctited them in place and then used a die grinder to shave them down unevenly. I had to have my crankshaft re-balanced (which of course required that I disassemble the shortblock immediately upon receipt).

4) Even after this, I was willing give this vendor 1 more chance. I decided to have him rebuild my 16v cylinder head and supply me with a custom valvetrain.
After spending $2100 on parts and labor and waiting for nearly 3 months, I began to grow impatient and asked the vendor for a status update. This was the only way to get any kind of status update as I never received any email or phone updates over the entire build - I had to ask repeatedly if we were on schedule (which we never were) and I prefer a vendor to be more forthcoming with information pertinent to the progress of the build.

At any rate, I'm sure the vendor sensed my growing impatience over the phone, as he told me the cylinder head was 'done and ready to go' (also in writing). I drove 7 hours the next day to pick it up and found it completely disassembled, with the old valve stem seals still installed on the old valve guides. This of course is all after the vendor told me in writing that the valve guides were replaced (you do the math on that one ). I decided that rather than wait another who knows how long, that I should take the head and my other various parts with me (worth $$$$) which were scattered about his garage.

After stewing for the 7 hour drive home, I asked for the money back for assembly labor which was paid for but not performed. The vendor sent a check for $75, along with a few parts he couldn't find while I was in his shop. I guess I'll be sending all of my 16V cylinder heads to him for assembly, because I've never heard of such cheap labor. I didn't even cash the check as I found it to be a slap in the face, especially after looking me in the eye and telling me the valve guides had been replaced and reamed for my new valves when this was clearly not true.

This vendor has also never delivered the valve locks, spring seats or shims which he charged me for, and couldn't produce critical information about the parts he sold me such as installed spring height, coil bind height, etc. Thankfully I have the manufacturer information and was able to get the details directly from them. Details like these, along with piston to wall clearance, deck height, combustion chamber volume etc are absolutely critical to know when building a reliable performance engine, especially an interference design turbo engine.

I have been quiet about these experiences as many here are very protective of their favorite vendors and lash out against anyone who speaks a negative word. In light of that, and in light of the 'Zero Tolerance' policy of this board, I kept my negative experience mostly to myself and don't want to name names in this post. That said, I hate to see people get screwed over, or pay the thousands of dollars this undertaking requires only to be dissatisfied by the product, service or results.

So going based upon the experience I have over the past 12-15 months of building a large displacement turbo motor, I would recommend that the original poster save himself a lot of time, money and headache and go with someone like Dave or Milledge who pays attention to the details. Had I done this from day 1, my project would be complete and running right now. You will see a larger number on the bottom line, but you can be confident that everything on the invoice has been done, and been done correctly, and that you won't have throw good money over bad to correct errors made the first time around. You would be amazed, but you can't count on that from everyone on the poll's list.

 

That is a great post, good information and listed pitfalls. Just what I am looking for. I apologize to all for not being more thoughtful with the poll, I did it in a rush. I was not thinking of all the things that could have been when I did it. Paul, I am going to PM you if you don't mind to find out whom we are talking about. It sounds as though that is someone I might want to steer clear of.

 

Paul, not to be disrespectful but I told you so if you remeber my PM in regards to this jack. Unbelievable what you had to endure..........

In regards to the poll, having seen and subsquently perform on race tracks , Milledge is the obvious choice plus he is man of facts not fiction and lets his results speak of him instead of net pimping on some forum board. Performance Developments is on the same level and their machine work is absolute state of the art. Both are not cheap but you get what you paid for.

 

This is a little out of the ordinary for me but unless I get this off my chest I just won’t feel right….

Paul, since you went into detail I would like to add the rest of the story.
You came to me in need of some work – initially a 3.0 8v short block and a tec3 engine management system. I was happy to help you out with your project (at the time).
If I recall the first hick up was when you called and wanted to return the Tec3 system - I gave you a full refund – should have charged you at least 20% or refused to accept it – but that’s not how I deal with good customers. Then you decided you wanted to go to a 16v set up after the block was machined and fitted for the 8v pistons and the block was assembled. Again, I should have made you start from scratch but instead I tried to help you out by custom ordering some pistons to match your already machined block – that’s not the way I usually do it. I gave you a very large discount and free labor to try and help you out. Next – you wanted your 16v head reconditioned and custom valves, springs and retainers supplied. The price for the actual reconditioning of you head was $500. $500 to recondition a 16V? and you bitch because I ‘only’ credited you $75 for not pulling the seals? Your valve guides were not replaced because they are fine and they were finished to fit the .001” larger valve stems of the custom valves.
Other issues –
The crank plugs – guess what – all I did was send the crank to another vendor (as per you request) and that’s what I got back. I did not charge you anything above what that vendor charges for the work. So I boxed the crank and shipped it out for nothing. I made $0 on that and followed your wishes. In reality I should have charged you a couple of hours to build the wood crate and ship it. Yes, it did come back with out plugs and if you weren’t standing there waiting for the build I would have dealt with it differently. As far as the balance – If it was out of balance then you should take it up with the vendor – I did not charge you to balance the crank (and the position and size of the plugs is such that the balance should not have been effected)
Bearings upside down, yes it happened and you have no idea how much that bothers me. Here is my “excuse” (I hate saying that). I usually use fully grooved main bearings – that’s how I order them, The top bearing is the same as the bottom bearing. I still should have noticed. Then again, as I believe I mentioned to you that day I was not feeling well. If it weren’t for the fact that you were standing there I would not have built that engine that day. I have learned that lesson now. How pissed would you have been if you showed up (on the weekend) and I told you to go home because I didn’t feel like it…
In fact I felt bad enough to completely redo the bottom end for the 16v set up with no labor charge.
Waiting for 3 months for the 16v stuff….custom Ferrea valves, Ti retainers….feel free to try to get that out of them any quicker! I can assure you that I was not sitting on the valves just to **** you off. As it was you got them at a very good price. Oh – and my offer to get your head coating done? Forget that.
So to sum up my experience – the customer changes his mind after work has been done – 8v to 16v, tec3 to no tec3 and I bend over to give him a break and all I get is grief (kind of like when somebody installs a KLR chip backwards and then wants it fixed buy the vendor!). Did I mention about the $1200 check that I was not allowed to deposit? That always sends and interesting signal…
So, Paul, I am disappointed that I could not keep you happy, I tried. I lost money on many things I did for you. Feel free to shop elsewhere. Also feel free to get somebody else to help you out with finishing your head – I only sold you parts and a valve job. Setting it up is up to you and your new friends.
I should have listen to the other vendor that warned me….

 

LOL, first the guy from down under, now another "bad " customer. Whats next , John D protection "take it to PM " ?

 

Get off the thread withyour issues!!! Keep to the point. Maybe if it was sold right, configured right and built right this issue would not happen.

Now back to the regularly schedule programming, my vote is for CEP as well. I will tell you why. Its because this company has the ability and products to make your engine so different to anything else out there. Who else has the block work they have, who else has the head work they have, who else has the camshafts they have( I know of one) and who else has the Oiling system they have. Etc Etc.

Its about what is offered not what is promised. I also know of whats coming down the line too. Hang on folks, its going to be amazing. Trust me.

I have stated way back about the parts I was involved with. Well, the Deck Plate, Girdle Mod, Intake Mod, Pistons, Head work, Crank , Cams, Oil System, EFI, Intake Manifold, Wet Sump, etc etc is all available now. I did build an engine, trust me. It never got off the dyno before it was changed in some way to test the other new parts. The idea was never to do anything else but to have new parts made and offered for sale. I hope to get one built up someday. I'm think about having one built for racing only.

It is no surprise that 2 of the choices either use CEP or have looked at his products in depth and want to use them.