A.Wayne

There have been quite a few built over the years , for some reason most stopped coming out to play anymore , even before the rule change. It's pretty strange as i have known individuals who have built 911 track cars that are slower than their 951 track car , but for whatever personal reason choose to race the 911 over there 951... Don't get this wrong , the rules change intention was to make the 911 more competitive , as the 951 enjoyed a big advantage under the old rules. When 90% + of the field are 911 based cars it was just a matter of time , before this was going to happen.
Adding weight to race cars are counter productive to me, so i would have preferred inlet restrictors and have the weights remain the same for both types..........

M758

The issue with super high powered 951's was and still is the cost. To get a max hp/liter form the 951 was not extremely hard, but it was extremely expensive. Cheap hp was relativly easy, but reliable hp was not. Even when some level of relaiblity was achieved it cost an arm and a leg and still requrieds alot of preventative work to keep going.

Here in Az we had a few of these super 951's running around about 5-6 years ago. Most however have vanished as the "cheap" 996 cups came up. These cars despite their inital costs ran quite well and are quite reliable given their speed.

Now with GT rules change it may make it less desirele to run a super 951. What is really needed to allow the 951 to have a solid place in PCA club racing is to have some limits on boost in each class. In the past GT rules always required super hp/liter and minimum weight. Now minimum weight is less of a concern since they are weight groups for given engine sizes and types. However engines are still expected to be 100% maxed out. There in brings up most of cost in running the 951. If they would have different factors for 951 boost levels I am sure you would see alot more 951's in PCA. Right now there are only two options. 1) stock with crank 220hp or 250hp or 2) GT with 400+ rear wheel hp. The sweet spot for a 951 to run fast, fun and reliable on the track is not 400+ hp at the wheels. It closer to 300-350 whee hp. Of course now or even in the old GT days 350 whp was not going to get the job done.

Geoffrey

Wayne, that is a completely false statement and was not the issue with the GT class restructering. The Turbo cars enjoyed an advantage due to the 1.3 multiplier, 911 included, that was part of the reasoning for the restructuring. The other reason is that there were no classes between prepared and GT, now you can have the option to run in several different classes, depending on weight. You guys are also missing that now there is a place for 944 N/A cars to be competitive where they were't in GT-5 previously. THIS IS NOT AND HAS NEVER BEEN A "GET RID OF 944 TURBOS" PLAN. There were several 944 guys on the committee and you can thank them for their suggestions.

This has been a general trend in the GT classes now for several years, 911s included.

A.Wayne

LOL< Jeffery , how was that a completely false statement ? I did say the 951 enjoyed an advantage under the old rules and while the new rules allow more flexing ( for the 911 ) it does favor the 911 based cars. putting inlet restrictors on the 951 would have allowed the car to play in the rules , same as the 911 making it better for all involved , as 951 owners would not have to have the added expense of re-engineering to be competitive....
It is what it is , a 2 L 951 would go back to the front of gt4 /gt3 again if done and yes the cup cars and others from the newer platforms are now coming into play, as expected .

Geoffrey

Wayne, it is a false statement because you indicate that the goal of the restructuring was to make a specific Porsche model series more competitive, and I'm telling you that it wasn't. There was no conspiracy here. 2.0l 911 turbos experienced the same advantage in GT4 as the 2.5l 944 turbos did in GT3. It was the turbo multiplier that was the problem.

Most of the 944 Turbos will run in GT2 where they will run with 2.6, 3.0l 911 turbos which by their nature can tolerate boost pressures of about 1.2bar max. A 944 enjoys not only a lower HP/L, but their engine design affords it much higher max boost pressure.

Factory based 996 race cars are not allowed in the GT classes, they go to GTA or GTC3/4 depending on configuration.

BTW, my name is spelled Geoffrey.

M758

Yep.

In the old GT days a stripped out 944 NA that was 2600lbs with a stockish 140 hp at the wheels motor was stuck in GT4 with 2100lbs 300 hp 911's. No chance at all. Any 944 S2 or 968 was stuck runing side by side with the 951 in GT3. Really given the same chassis and virtually no way make hp nobody in their right minds would try to race an S2 or 968 in GT. You could with alot of work make a what 951 would on day when the owner turned the boost down to just "have some fun and take it easy".

At least now there is a possiblity. Really however to allow mid level 951's to be competivte there needs to be boost limits or boost groupings. ie stock 15psi = 1, 15-20 psi = 2 , 20+ psi = 3. Something like that or some sliding factor. That is what is missing from the current GT rules.

If you thing about it what determines hp from a motor. Displacement, RPM and boost. PCA has the displacement thing down as bigger motors get taken into account with the factors. The RPM think is less developed, but the new GT rules do take into account that all Porsche motors do not rev and make hp the same way. So there is at least a factor for that. What is missing is boost for turbo cars. Hey a 2.5L 951 motor can make from 220 hp to 600 hp just from playing with boost. There is no way any Porsche stock based NA motor has that much room to increase power with out being factored in. In an NA 911 motor you can through good builds make more hp/liter, but it can be hard to double the hp/liter like you can on a turbo motor. The missing element is boost pressure. More boost = more hp and thus if you could factor in the boost levels you can figure get a much better handle on the hp speads. I is in fact quite simple to put in a boost facator for 951 and 930/911 Turbo cars and really tigthen up the field.

The biggest issue however is policing the boost in practice and for that reason I believe PCA has not adopted a boost factor for GT. If they did I think the 951 would be great car to race and it would complete fairly vs the NA cars in its classes.

A.Wayne

Opps !

Geoffrey , we will have to agree to disagree here as the rules changes have made the 911 more competitive in GT than they did before , this might not have been the the true intent of the board and i'm not saying it was ,
( you are correct , intent was pure conjecture on my part) but without a doubt the net effect of the current rules has made the 911 more competitive in GT. in the long run maybe this will be better for GT as a whole as GT 2 will become a kind of turbo class and i"m in total agreement that something had to be done as the 951 had an unfair advantage in GT3 under the old rules......my preference would have been inlet restrictors for the turbos...instead of adding weight.



The biggest issue however is policing the boost in practice and for that reason I believe PCA has not adopted a boost factor for GT. If they did I think the 951 would be great car to race and it would complete fairly vs the NA cars in its classes.

Inlet restrictors , no need to police boost ...

warpedrotor

911 gt3r car turned a 54.8 at limerock

944 turbo gt2r turned a 55.1

both cars are well prepped and driven well

it is now obvious that the new rules are defective

what does everybody think

A.Wayne

Previous GT3 S record before rule change .

GT3S 0:55.910 Roy Chong GT 86 951 Practice/Warmup
4/28/2006

GT2R 0:56.088 Keith Peare 70 914 Qualifying 5/3/2003

GT3R 0:58.847 Adam Schaefer 76 911 Race 5/3/2003


Now after rule changes you are saying both classes are now faster with the roles' reverse ?
rules not yet defective, LOL until i see who has the fastest GT 2 times ..


DId they repave lime rock making the track faster or is it the same ?

the results shown would be expected under the new rules as the 951 advantage is power and the extra weight would be a dis-advantage at a short track like lime rock....

Geoffrey

Hi Wayne,

Lime Rock has not been repaved yet...in the next months...

I don't think the 944s will have a weight issue in GT2 since they can weight (with driver)

2.5T - 2112
2.8T - 2387
3.0T - 2556

Chris Musante's car is an extremely light car built to the limits of the NEW rules ie modified from its old configuration when run old 3S, and 54.8 is the fastest he has ever run. Lime Rock favors a lightweight small car and a 54 is in the range of what a 997 GT3 Cup car can run.

IF Roy switched to slicks and built an engine to the limits of the GT2 class, he should be well ahead of Chris's GT3R car. Further, the above referenced 944T running this year's club race is not maximized for the NEW rules.


What do I think? I think the rules are working just fine and that there simply isn't the level of preparation built into 944Ts yet as there has been with the 911s.

M758

Really how does one race show the performance potential of the cars?

There is infact ALOT more to it than taking the best times from a couple cars. One classic example is the Audi vs Porsche battle in P1 and P2 in ALMS. P1 is suppose to be faster, but many times the P2 Porsches crank out faster laps especially a smaller tighter tracks. Even so once in traffic the Audi can kill the Porsche due to pure hp and acceleration. Racing is about finishing in front and a good lap time is one only element to that.

Point is that it is not fair to use one race like this to prove any advantage/disadvantage of classing.

A.Wayne

^ there has been at least 5 races now ran under the new rules. I would like to see
a few more races say daytona, road america ,the GLen , to see if the 944 is really left behind. If at those tracks the reconized 44 front runners are not able to get ahead then i would agree, anyway , i do believe some rule mods will be done as a way of honing the rules for everyone ...

warpedrotor

very few

even thought a 944 can weight in at 2100 odd pounds with driver - it cant because there is no 944 that weights under 2000 pounds - in fact the majority of highly modified 944 weight in around 2500 a few are 2350 and there appears to be one at 2150ish in short taking weight out of 944 is not a viable option for 944 drivers/racers so even though a 944 is re classed in gt2 its only option would be to increase engine size to a 2.8 - i dont think anybody is rushing out to do that considering the rules might change again - conversly to run against a 911 in gt3 a 944 driver would have to weight in at around 2800 - well roy couldn't keep up with musante as his car sat the other day - if roy maximized his car for gt3r he would need to add that weight - you would then have a maximized 911 vs a maximized 944 - in short the 944 wouldn't have a chance - was this the intent of the rules change?

on the other hand 911 drivers have the ability to add weight decrease weight and engine size with very little penalty. dont want to run gt3 then add a couple a hundred pounds and run gt4 or say your car is already really light well then jump up to a 3.6 or 3.8.

To me it just feels like the average racer who doesn't have the ability or budget or his own shop to change his car configuration at will has been left out in the cold by these new rules my 2c

warpedrotor

Roy was running slicks at limerock so they were on the same rubber

A.Wayne

What suggestions would you have to equalize the rules and where would a 2.1 L 951 be in GT3?

Roy was not able to beat Musante times at LR, i would like to see the results say , at the glen , if at the glenn Roy is not able to beat Musante's time then there is evidence for a rule change , again.....
I'm totally against the weight gain for GT3 , inlet restrictors would have been Better to equalize the NA and Turbo cars .