Looking for opinions on a turbocharger
09-21-2007, 02:25 PM
#31
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i will bet money that the 50trim/8 will outspool the stock k26/8
a local 951 buddy has installed the 50trim/8 and we are hoping to fire it up tonight, so we'll have before/after dynos of this soon as well.
09-21-2007, 02:33 PM
#32
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My stock 26/6 spooled to 1bar @ 2700rpm w/ an EBC, which is about as fast as the k26/6 will spool and the 26/8 is only another few hundred rpm slower. I'd say a turbo capable of spooling only ~200rpm later than a 26/8, yet capable of over 100whp more than a 26/8 is pretty darn good as is. 200rpm higher boost threshold or spool is barely noticeable as that amount of rpm will pass by in the blink of an eye. It might be possible to get a 300-350whp capable turbo to spool to 14-17psi before 2700rpm on a 2.5l, but to do it you'll likely have to implement a twin scroll setup or make some other radical design changes that will cost a decent amount of money and ultimately be more work than is necessary. Is there any real reason you want it to make full boost so early? I mean, most of the ~300-350whp bolt-on turbo choices for these cars will typically generate ~14-18psi before 3500rpm, which is plenty responsive for a street car and a majority of them seem to make that boost closer to 3-3.3k rpm or so. That's still plenty responsive to where you aren't waiting for it to spool, you can still ease on the throttle in 5th at highway speeds and develop boost quickly without having to downshift, etc. I honestly wouldn't worry about a few hundred rpm as in 1st through say 3rd gear 200-500rpm goes by quick enough that it won't be too noticeable.
Also, one thing to note about Nize's datalogs is the actual physical time it took both turbos to spool. The 26/8 did 0-20psi in 14.4sec and the t3/t4 did 0-20psi in 8.3sec! I'm not sure what gear that was done in (Nize?), but the larger turbo taking 6.1 seconds LESS time to spool is pretty impressive (hell, that surprised me and I'm tough to please!
). A good part of that is the fact it has the new Garrett t3/t4r dual ball bearing center section of course. This is an excellent example of the actual improvements in transient response and overall response with DBB turbos like I keep constantly babbling about. 
A bit OT but, thanks again for all of the datalogging Nize! That's pretty cool stuff. Have you dyno'd the car yet?
Also, one thing to note about Nize's datalogs is the actual physical time it took both turbos to spool. The 26/8 did 0-20psi in 14.4sec and the t3/t4 did 0-20psi in 8.3sec! I'm not sure what gear that was done in (Nize?), but the larger turbo taking 6.1 seconds LESS time to spool is pretty impressive (hell, that surprised me and I'm tough to please!
). A good part of that is the fact it has the new Garrett t3/t4r dual ball bearing center section of course. This is an excellent example of the actual improvements in transient response and overall response with DBB turbos like I keep constantly babbling about. A bit OT but, thanks again for all of the datalogging Nize! That's pretty cool stuff. Have you dyno'd the car yet?
the 0-20psi test on both turbos were done in 4th gear, which gives closest to 1:1 drive ratio.
i've dynoed the car on the same tune and it hit 317whp. i'm hoping to get the tune better to make more power, but haven't had much free time to play with the car lately, as i'm helping another local 951 owner with his motor rebuild.
09-21-2007, 05:43 PM
#33
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I was actually referring to stock 26/6, not 26/8.
The reason I want a quick spool is to get the power going quickly and have a fatter power band. I have driven mazdaspeed6 which spools very quickly, comes on great with power, and runs out of steam at 5200-5400 rpms. Obviously that's not what I want.
If a couple hundred rpms faster or slower matters depends on where you are starting from. So if I got a turbo spooling at 2500, what's a couple hundred...2700. if i have a turbo spooling at 3000 what's a couple hundred, 3200. If I have turbo spooling at 4200, a couple hundred if 4400 and so on and so forth.
It seems to me that much of the sales pitch for a 27/6 is that it spools up the same but can produce more power........but it is 20 year old technolog and some consider it small.
TonyG used to be a big proponent of 27/6.
If a vendor had a turbo, bolt on, "spools quicker than 26/6, but will deliver 300 rwph with basic mods-mbc, test pipe, wastegate that works" i think he would have a lot of interest
The reason I want a quick spool is to get the power going quickly and have a fatter power band. I have driven mazdaspeed6 which spools very quickly, comes on great with power, and runs out of steam at 5200-5400 rpms. Obviously that's not what I want.
If a couple hundred rpms faster or slower matters depends on where you are starting from. So if I got a turbo spooling at 2500, what's a couple hundred...2700. if i have a turbo spooling at 3000 what's a couple hundred, 3200. If I have turbo spooling at 4200, a couple hundred if 4400 and so on and so forth.
It seems to me that much of the sales pitch for a 27/6 is that it spools up the same but can produce more power........but it is 20 year old technolog and some consider it small.
TonyG used to be a big proponent of 27/6.
If a vendor had a turbo, bolt on, "spools quicker than 26/6, but will deliver 300 rwph with basic mods-mbc, test pipe, wastegate that works" i think he would have a lot of interest
09-21-2007, 06:30 PM
#34
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"These turbos have produced over 325 horsepower at the wheels (375 at flywheel) at relatively mild boost pressures(16-18psi) on stock 2.5L motors. These turbos are capable of producing up to 350 horsepower at the wheels(425 at flywheel) at 25 psi. These turbos feature a 2.75 inlet. Typically full boost is realized at 2500 rpms. This is a relatively mild turbo upgrade but is still far superior to any k-27!"
http://www.speedforceracing.com/prod...bochargers.php
_Jeff
09-21-2007, 06:59 PM
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I had 1 bar BEFORE 3k rpms with my vitesse stage 2 kit, FULL (including downpipe) 3" SFR, JM cam, tial, mbc, maybe a few other small things that I cannot recall t the moment. Over 300rwhp on pump, 375+ on race
09-21-2007, 07:10 PM
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I should also go on to say that I feel pretty confident that my current turbo will do over 300 at the wheels- and spoolup is very similar to that of a k26-8, except MUCH more linear.
. . . And it is just a TEC t04e (46 trim, .48 a/r, and what they call their stage 3 wheel) which cost under $1000 in pretty much bolt on form.
I have yet to get datalogs and dyno sheet on this car, but I will share with everyone once I have that.
. . . And it is just a TEC t04e (46 trim, .48 a/r, and what they call their stage 3 wheel) which cost under $1000 in pretty much bolt on form.
I have yet to get datalogs and dyno sheet on this car, but I will share with everyone once I have that.
09-21-2007, 08:54 PM
#37
It didn't take much doing either, we put it on and drove to the dyno.
09-21-2007, 09:27 PM
#38
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well I'll say it again a gt28rs is available with the rong kind of rear housing for 500 put that in a kkk 8 its then bolt on . this turbo makes boost at 2k on a 2lt and 300whp.
09-22-2007, 05:00 PM
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I should also go on to say that I feel pretty confident that my current turbo will do over 300 at the wheels- and spoolup is very similar to that of a k26-8, except MUCH more linear.
. . . And it is just a TEC t04e (46 trim, .48 a/r, and what they call their stage 3 wheel) which cost under $1000 in pretty much bolt on form.
I have yet to get datalogs and dyno sheet on this car, but I will share with everyone once I have that.
. . . And it is just a TEC t04e (46 trim, .48 a/r, and what they call their stage 3 wheel) which cost under $1000 in pretty much bolt on form.
I have yet to get datalogs and dyno sheet on this car, but I will share with everyone once I have that.
I remember your old car showed that silver sti with the cross in the back window whos boss
09-22-2007, 08:15 PM
#40
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You guys are bumming me out with all the KKK bashing because I have a rebuilt 27/6 that I'm planning on putting in soon. I'd love to get a new Vitesse turbo but probably can't justify the cost, and I want to keep the stock look with my Vitesse stealth MAF. Here's a T3/T4 "stage 3" with .63 A/R (as suggested in this thread) on ebay for $250. That's pretty cheap-what am I missing?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...link:middle:us
I have no idea what all the specs mean but would like to learn. I want early spool-up too and 300-350 WHP and can do whatever fabrication is necessary to make it fit. What's the best way to learn the calculations? I realize that experience goes a long way and a hybrid built by someone who knows what they're doing is going to be best, but it would be nice to know some basics.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...link:middle:us
I have no idea what all the specs mean but would like to learn. I want early spool-up too and 300-350 WHP and can do whatever fabrication is necessary to make it fit. What's the best way to learn the calculations? I realize that experience goes a long way and a hybrid built by someone who knows what they're doing is going to be best, but it would be nice to know some basics.
Last edited by kevincnc; 09-22-2007 at 08:38 PM.
09-22-2007, 08:31 PM
#41
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That one on ebay is a cheap Chinese knock-off.
And really the K27/6 is a great upgrade that can't be beat for the price, IMO.
Rogue
And really the K27/6 is a great upgrade that can't be beat for the price, IMO.
Rogue
09-22-2007, 08:58 PM
#42
Three Wheelin'
That explains the price, those Chinese kids are building turbos too. This is actually the first thread that I've heard anyone say anything bad about a 27/6.
09-22-2007, 10:31 PM
#43
Three Wheelin'
Yep, XSPower turbo's are chinese crap. I would avoid them like the plague. I've heard a few people getting by just fine on some of the various brand wave of chinese made turbos lately, however it only takes one "small" failure to potentially send turbocharger "shrapnel" flying through your intake system. It's just not worth it when a typical Garrett t3/t4 can usually be had for ~$500-750 new depending on where you look.
The 27/6 isn't a "bad" hybrid combo per se. It works and gets the job done just fine, and actually isn't really laggy at all. Yeah there is much better stuff out there that will probably spool a bit better but, in the long run whatever works......well works. Personally, IMO a 27/8 would be a better route but, the 27/6 will work just fine, be cheaper in the long run since you just have to rebuild it, and they've been proven for awhile now to be good for 300+whp, so I wouldn't worry about it Kevin.
Kevin, as far as learning about turbo "sizing", it really depends on the person but, what has helped me get the hang of what all the various sizes mean and are capable of is to simply go out on the net searching forums for dyno sheets, talking to people in person about their setups, etc. There is plenty of math and science behind these things, but a lot of it can get pretty advanced and complicated to the point where simply looking at the math or science behind the numbers makes it overly-complicated to learn initially. Garrett's Website has some excellent tech articles (Turbo Tech 101, 102, 103) that might get you pointed in the right direction if you aren't too familiar with turbocharger systems as a whole. I'd say for now, try to ignore some of the more "advanced" stuff they talk about like the math and calculations behind a lot of it and focus on searching for dyno sheets, data log charts (so you can see some actual spool times), or even better just go get some rides in people's cars. There are lots of people at lots of track events (SCCA, NASA, etc) that are very nice and always willing to take people for rides. If you get caught up with all of the mathematics behind "proper" turbo sizing, you could potentially spend an eternity trying to come up with the perfect solution sometimes, whereas simply riding in a few different cars you might find something you like much more quickly and with much less effort.
The 27/6 isn't a "bad" hybrid combo per se. It works and gets the job done just fine, and actually isn't really laggy at all. Yeah there is much better stuff out there that will probably spool a bit better but, in the long run whatever works......well works.
Personally, IMO a 27/8 would be a better route but, the 27/6 will work just fine, be cheaper in the long run since you just have to rebuild it, and they've been proven for awhile now to be good for 300+whp, so I wouldn't worry about it Kevin.Kevin, as far as learning about turbo "sizing", it really depends on the person but, what has helped me get the hang of what all the various sizes mean and are capable of is to simply go out on the net searching forums for dyno sheets, talking to people in person about their setups, etc. There is plenty of math and science behind these things, but a lot of it can get pretty advanced and complicated to the point where simply looking at the math or science behind the numbers makes it overly-complicated to learn initially. Garrett's Website has some excellent tech articles (Turbo Tech 101, 102, 103) that might get you pointed in the right direction if you aren't too familiar with turbocharger systems as a whole. I'd say for now, try to ignore some of the more "advanced" stuff they talk about like the math and calculations behind a lot of it and focus on searching for dyno sheets, data log charts (so you can see some actual spool times), or even better just go get some rides in people's cars. There are lots of people at lots of track events (SCCA, NASA, etc) that are very nice and always willing to take people for rides. If you get caught up with all of the mathematics behind "proper" turbo sizing, you could potentially spend an eternity trying to come up with the perfect solution sometimes, whereas simply riding in a few different cars you might find something you like much more quickly and with much less effort.
09-23-2007, 01:31 AM
#44
Three Wheelin'
Yep, XSPower turbo's are chinese crap. I would avoid them like the plague. I've heard a few people getting by just fine on some of the various brand wave of chinese made turbos lately, however it only takes one "small" failure to potentially send turbocharger "shrapnel" flying through your intake system. It's just not worth it when a typical Garrett t3/t4 can usually be had for ~$500-750 new depending on where you look.
The 27/6 isn't a "bad" hybrid combo per se. It works and gets the job done just fine, and actually isn't really laggy at all. Yeah there is much better stuff out there that will probably spool a bit better but, in the long run whatever works......well works. Personally, IMO a 27/8 would be a better route but, the 27/6 will work just fine, be cheaper in the long run since you just have to rebuild it, and they've been proven for awhile now to be good for 300+whp, so I wouldn't worry about it Kevin.
Kevin, as far as learning about turbo "sizing", it really depends on the person but, what has helped me get the hang of what all the various sizes mean and are capable of is to simply go out on the net searching forums for dyno sheets, talking to people in person about their setups, etc. There is plenty of math and science behind these things, but a lot of it can get pretty advanced and complicated to the point where simply looking at the math or science behind the numbers makes it overly-complicated to learn initially. Garrett's Website has some excellent tech articles (Turbo Tech 101, 102, 103) that might get you pointed in the right direction if you aren't too familiar with turbocharger systems as a whole. I'd say for now, try to ignore some of the more "advanced" stuff they talk about like the math and calculations behind a lot of it and focus on searching for dyno sheets, data log charts (so you can see some actual spool times), or even better just go get some rides in people's cars. There are lots of people at lots of track events (SCCA, NASA, etc) that are very nice and always willing to take people for rides. If you get caught up with all of the mathematics behind "proper" turbo sizing, you could potentially spend an eternity trying to come up with the perfect solution sometimes, whereas simply riding in a few different cars you might find something you like much more quickly and with much less effort.
The 27/6 isn't a "bad" hybrid combo per se. It works and gets the job done just fine, and actually isn't really laggy at all. Yeah there is much better stuff out there that will probably spool a bit better but, in the long run whatever works......well works.
Personally, IMO a 27/8 would be a better route but, the 27/6 will work just fine, be cheaper in the long run since you just have to rebuild it, and they've been proven for awhile now to be good for 300+whp, so I wouldn't worry about it Kevin.Kevin, as far as learning about turbo "sizing", it really depends on the person but, what has helped me get the hang of what all the various sizes mean and are capable of is to simply go out on the net searching forums for dyno sheets, talking to people in person about their setups, etc. There is plenty of math and science behind these things, but a lot of it can get pretty advanced and complicated to the point where simply looking at the math or science behind the numbers makes it overly-complicated to learn initially. Garrett's Website has some excellent tech articles (Turbo Tech 101, 102, 103) that might get you pointed in the right direction if you aren't too familiar with turbocharger systems as a whole. I'd say for now, try to ignore some of the more "advanced" stuff they talk about like the math and calculations behind a lot of it and focus on searching for dyno sheets, data log charts (so you can see some actual spool times), or even better just go get some rides in people's cars. There are lots of people at lots of track events (SCCA, NASA, etc) that are very nice and always willing to take people for rides. If you get caught up with all of the mathematics behind "proper" turbo sizing, you could potentially spend an eternity trying to come up with the perfect solution sometimes, whereas simply riding in a few different cars you might find something you like much more quickly and with much less effort.
