Calling out Special Tool, 1/4 mile race
08-02-2007, 05:48 PM
#557
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by special tool
I have escort cup suspension - actually and exact replica of the cup cars.
its pretty siff.
its pretty siff.
08-02-2007, 05:59 PM
#559
Race Car
Originally Posted by special tool
I have escort cup suspension - actually and exact replica of the cup cars.
its pretty siff.
its pretty siff.
If there's a will theres a way
08-02-2007, 08:27 PM
#561
Three Wheelin'
Axles are never really a big deal as there are always plenty of places around to make you some bulletproof custom ones. I'd be most curious to see how the R&P holds up to a sub 1.8 60' and the grip of some drag radials with that much power.
08-03-2007, 12:02 AM
#564
Rennlist Member
Jim, are you running any lsd?
08-03-2007, 01:49 AM
#566
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
With grip and good driving a 112 mph car beats a 125 + mph car no time .....
ST with proper tires and driving should net 5/10 over TMS..
I will also add that of the 2 time slips ST MPH shows he has more to work with
for fast ET's , Both cars can improve of course as the best 60" was 1.9 but with current 951 axles 1.7 is possibly the best with DR tires , which will put TMS @ 12.0 and ST with that MPH should see 11.7 if all remains equal ....
Congrats to TMS as he made it happen .....
I did not expect ST to turn up to a drag race with Firestones
ST with proper tires and driving should net 5/10 over TMS..
I will also add that of the 2 time slips ST MPH shows he has more to work with
for fast ET's , Both cars can improve of course as the best 60" was 1.9 but with current 951 axles 1.7 is possibly the best with DR tires , which will put TMS @ 12.0 and ST with that MPH should see 11.7 if all remains equal ....
Congrats to TMS as he made it happen .....
I did not expect ST to turn up to a drag race with Firestones
Keep in mind, my text was based on ALL things being the same except Tool on DR's. That said...
Factually, TMS' best run was 12.228@115.18mph, so let's call that 12.23@115.2mph, Tool's best run was 13.251@123.7mph, so let's call that 13.25@123.7 - So we have a one second gap with a 8.5 MPH spread.
Short times were 1.93, and 2.16 respectively. Using your math, you are deducting straight time from the ET for gains in the 60', but that is incorrect. The average gain per tenth in 60' is worth 2/10's in ET. Also, it is asking a bit much to see more than one 1.7 second 60' from a non drag prepared 951 without breaking stuff, so let's assume a 1.85 second 60' would be a relatively stellar launch on a drag radial...
That would put TMS at roughly a 12 flat, and Tool at roughly 12.6 seconds. Of course, one would argue that Tool was spinning his tires, and should therefore get a better trap speed wth drag radials, right? - Well, that is already built into the equation. That is why he gets 6/10's, becuase he will improve his short time, AND will get better traction down the track. This is also why TMS only gains 2/10's, becuase he is already hooking up. One tenth at the line will yield rouhgly two tenths across the line in utopia, so even those figures are generous.
We have been drag racing these cars for years and over the years, we have compiled LOTS of data in regard to short times, ET's, and the effects of MPH on ET in these cars. Truth be told, MPH means a whole lot less than a solid 60' time. That is the hard truth.
Take it from someone that has run over 120 trap speeds, and still got beat by a 10.6 second rotary powered Toyota Starlet that corssed the line at only 97mph! - So yes, a 115 MPH car can beat a 124 mile per hour car - ANYDAY. It is all about the extended short time (under 330') - In drag racing, it is not just about how much power a car makes, it is all about where the car makes torque. Here we have two different animals, plain and simple. One is faster, one is quicker. You can argue it all you want, but that is the simple truth.
Race over half a mile and it is a whole different story - Tool will say, Bye Bye TMS! - For the quarter, my money is on TMS regardless. Again, ALL THINGS THE SAME, just Tool on DR's.
Again, ALL OTHER THINGS THE SAME.
We could go on forever speculating about this change, and that change, and who would be faster/quicker with this or that, but I am talking about the cars they both arrived with that day, in the same configuration. Both had road race oriented suspensions, with stiff springs, so to say one would do better than the other if not for the suspension is not a valid argument. In other words, both are less than perfect drag race cars (mildly stated) - Both cars weigh about the same (more or less), both cars are full bodied, yadda , yadda, yadda. So both had similar obsticals to overcome, and both did a decent job running what they had, again, Kudos!
To be honest, I would like to see a round two with the only modification being Tool on a drag radial to validate all the above. How 'bout it boys?
Thanks for reading.
08-03-2007, 07:57 AM
#567
Originally Posted by Under Pressure Performance
I disagree on all points...
Keep in mind, my text was based on ALL things being the same except Tool on DR's. That said...
Factually, TMS' best run was 12.228@115.18mph, so let's call that 12.23@115.2mph, Tool's best run was 13.251@123.7mph, so let's call that 13.25@123.7 - So we have a one second gap with a 8.5 MPH spread.
Short times were 1.93, and 2.16 respectively. Using your math, you are deducting straight time from the ET for gains in the 60', but that is incorrect. The average gain per tenth in 60' is worth 2/10's in ET. Also, it is asking a bit much to see more than one 1.7 second 60' from a non drag prepared 951 without breaking stuff, so let's assume a 1.85 second 60' would be a relatively stellar launch on a drag radial...
That would put TMS at roughly a 12 flat, and Tool at roughly 12.6 seconds. Of course, one would argue that Tool was spinning his tires, and should therefore get a better trap speed wth drag radials, right? - Well, that is already built into the equation. That is why he gets 6/10's, becuase he will improve his short time, AND will get better traction down the track. This is also why TMS only gains 2/10's, becuase he is already hooking up. One tenth at the line will yield rouhgly two tenths across the line in utopia, so even those figures are generous.
We have been drag racing these cars for years and over the years, we have compiled LOTS of data in regard to short times, ET's, and the effects of MPH on ET in these cars. Truth be told, MPH means a whole lot less than a solid 60' time. That is the hard truth.
Take it from someone that has run over 120 trap speeds, and still got beat by a 10.6 second rotary powered Toyota Starlet that corssed the line at only 97mph! - So yes, a 115 MPH car can beat a 124 mile per hour car - ANYDAY. It is all about the extended short time (under 330') - In drag racing, it is not just about how much power a car makes, it is all about where the car makes torque. Here we have two different animals, plain and simple. One is faster, one is quicker. You can argue it all you want, but that is the simple truth.
Race over half a mile and it is a whole different story - Tool will say, Bye Bye TMS! - For the quarter, my money is on TMS regardless. Again, ALL THINGS THE SAME, just Tool on DR's.
Again, ALL OTHER THINGS THE SAME.
We could go on forever speculating about this change, and that change, and who would be faster/quicker with this or that, but I am talking about the cars they both arrived with that day, in the same configuration. Both had road race oriented suspensions, with stiff springs, so to say one would do better than the other if not for the suspension is not a valid argument. In other words, both are less than perfect drag race cars (mildly stated) - Both cars weigh about the same (more or less), both cars are full bodied, yadda , yadda, yadda. So both had similar obsticals to overcome, and both did a decent job running what they had, again, Kudos!
To be honest, I would like to see a round two with the only modification being Tool on a drag radial to validate all the above. How 'bout it boys?
Thanks for reading.
Keep in mind, my text was based on ALL things being the same except Tool on DR's. That said...
Factually, TMS' best run was 12.228@115.18mph, so let's call that 12.23@115.2mph, Tool's best run was 13.251@123.7mph, so let's call that 13.25@123.7 - So we have a one second gap with a 8.5 MPH spread.
Short times were 1.93, and 2.16 respectively. Using your math, you are deducting straight time from the ET for gains in the 60', but that is incorrect. The average gain per tenth in 60' is worth 2/10's in ET. Also, it is asking a bit much to see more than one 1.7 second 60' from a non drag prepared 951 without breaking stuff, so let's assume a 1.85 second 60' would be a relatively stellar launch on a drag radial...
That would put TMS at roughly a 12 flat, and Tool at roughly 12.6 seconds. Of course, one would argue that Tool was spinning his tires, and should therefore get a better trap speed wth drag radials, right? - Well, that is already built into the equation. That is why he gets 6/10's, becuase he will improve his short time, AND will get better traction down the track. This is also why TMS only gains 2/10's, becuase he is already hooking up. One tenth at the line will yield rouhgly two tenths across the line in utopia, so even those figures are generous.
We have been drag racing these cars for years and over the years, we have compiled LOTS of data in regard to short times, ET's, and the effects of MPH on ET in these cars. Truth be told, MPH means a whole lot less than a solid 60' time. That is the hard truth.
Take it from someone that has run over 120 trap speeds, and still got beat by a 10.6 second rotary powered Toyota Starlet that corssed the line at only 97mph! - So yes, a 115 MPH car can beat a 124 mile per hour car - ANYDAY. It is all about the extended short time (under 330') - In drag racing, it is not just about how much power a car makes, it is all about where the car makes torque. Here we have two different animals, plain and simple. One is faster, one is quicker. You can argue it all you want, but that is the simple truth.
Race over half a mile and it is a whole different story - Tool will say, Bye Bye TMS! - For the quarter, my money is on TMS regardless. Again, ALL THINGS THE SAME, just Tool on DR's.
Again, ALL OTHER THINGS THE SAME.
We could go on forever speculating about this change, and that change, and who would be faster/quicker with this or that, but I am talking about the cars they both arrived with that day, in the same configuration. Both had road race oriented suspensions, with stiff springs, so to say one would do better than the other if not for the suspension is not a valid argument. In other words, both are less than perfect drag race cars (mildly stated) - Both cars weigh about the same (more or less), both cars are full bodied, yadda , yadda, yadda. So both had similar obsticals to overcome, and both did a decent job running what they had, again, Kudos!
To be honest, I would like to see a round two with the only modification being Tool on a drag radial to validate all the above. How 'bout it boys?
Thanks for reading.
Probably in September.
We will update this thread.
Hopefully, some other Porsche guys will come out.
08-03-2007, 10:28 AM
#568
Formula One Spin Doctor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Under Pressure Performance
I disagree on all points...
Keep in mind, my text was based on ALL things being the same except Tool on DR's. That said...
Factually, TMS' best run was 12.228@115.18mph, so let's call that 12.23@115.2mph, Tool's best run was 13.251@123.7mph, so let's call that 13.25@123.7 - So we have a one second gap with a 8.5 MPH spread.
Short times were 1.93, and 2.16 respectively. Using your math, you are deducting straight time from the ET for gains in the 60', but that is incorrect. The average gain per tenth in 60' is worth 2/10's in ET. Also, it is asking a bit much to see more than one 1.7 second 60' from a non drag prepared 951 without breaking stuff, so let's assume a 1.85 second 60' would be a relatively stellar launch on a drag radial...
That would put TMS at roughly a 12 flat, and Tool at roughly 12.6 seconds. Of course, one would argue that Tool was spinning his tires, and should therefore get a better trap speed wth drag radials, right? - Well, that is already built into the equation. That is why he gets 6/10's, becuase he will improve his short time, AND will get better traction down the track. This is also why TMS only gains 2/10's, becuase he is already hooking up. One tenth at the line will yield rouhgly two tenths across the line in utopia, so even those figures are generous.
We have been drag racing these cars for years and over the years, we have compiled LOTS of data in regard to short times, ET's, and the effects of MPH on ET in these cars. Truth be told, MPH means a whole lot less than a solid 60' time. That is the hard truth.
Take it from someone that has run over 120 trap speeds, and still got beat by a 10.6 second rotary powered Toyota Starlet that corssed the line at only 97mph! - So yes, a 115 MPH car can beat a 124 mile per hour car - ANYDAY. It is all about the extended short time (under 330') - In drag racing, it is not just about how much power a car makes, it is all about where the car makes torque. Here we have two different animals, plain and simple. One is faster, one is quicker. You can argue it all you want, but that is the simple truth.
Race over half a mile and it is a whole different story - Tool will say, Bye Bye TMS! - For the quarter, my money is on TMS regardless. Again, ALL THINGS THE SAME, just Tool on DR's.
Again, ALL OTHER THINGS THE SAME.
We could go on forever speculating about this change, and that change, and who would be faster/quicker with this or that, but I am talking about the cars they both arrived with that day, in the same configuration. Both had road race oriented suspensions, with stiff springs, so to say one would do better than the other if not for the suspension is not a valid argument. In other words, both are less than perfect drag race cars (mildly stated) - Both cars weigh about the same (more or less), both cars are full bodied, yadda , yadda, yadda. So both had similar obsticals to overcome, and both did a decent job running what they had, again, Kudos!
To be honest, I would like to see a round two with the only modification being Tool on a drag radial to validate all the above. How 'bout it boys?
Thanks for reading.
Keep in mind, my text was based on ALL things being the same except Tool on DR's. That said...
Factually, TMS' best run was 12.228@115.18mph, so let's call that 12.23@115.2mph, Tool's best run was 13.251@123.7mph, so let's call that 13.25@123.7 - So we have a one second gap with a 8.5 MPH spread.
Short times were 1.93, and 2.16 respectively. Using your math, you are deducting straight time from the ET for gains in the 60', but that is incorrect. The average gain per tenth in 60' is worth 2/10's in ET. Also, it is asking a bit much to see more than one 1.7 second 60' from a non drag prepared 951 without breaking stuff, so let's assume a 1.85 second 60' would be a relatively stellar launch on a drag radial...
That would put TMS at roughly a 12 flat, and Tool at roughly 12.6 seconds. Of course, one would argue that Tool was spinning his tires, and should therefore get a better trap speed wth drag radials, right? - Well, that is already built into the equation. That is why he gets 6/10's, becuase he will improve his short time, AND will get better traction down the track. This is also why TMS only gains 2/10's, becuase he is already hooking up. One tenth at the line will yield rouhgly two tenths across the line in utopia, so even those figures are generous.
We have been drag racing these cars for years and over the years, we have compiled LOTS of data in regard to short times, ET's, and the effects of MPH on ET in these cars. Truth be told, MPH means a whole lot less than a solid 60' time. That is the hard truth.
Take it from someone that has run over 120 trap speeds, and still got beat by a 10.6 second rotary powered Toyota Starlet that corssed the line at only 97mph! - So yes, a 115 MPH car can beat a 124 mile per hour car - ANYDAY. It is all about the extended short time (under 330') - In drag racing, it is not just about how much power a car makes, it is all about where the car makes torque. Here we have two different animals, plain and simple. One is faster, one is quicker. You can argue it all you want, but that is the simple truth.
Race over half a mile and it is a whole different story - Tool will say, Bye Bye TMS! - For the quarter, my money is on TMS regardless. Again, ALL THINGS THE SAME, just Tool on DR's.
Again, ALL OTHER THINGS THE SAME.
We could go on forever speculating about this change, and that change, and who would be faster/quicker with this or that, but I am talking about the cars they both arrived with that day, in the same configuration. Both had road race oriented suspensions, with stiff springs, so to say one would do better than the other if not for the suspension is not a valid argument. In other words, both are less than perfect drag race cars (mildly stated) - Both cars weigh about the same (more or less), both cars are full bodied, yadda , yadda, yadda. So both had similar obsticals to overcome, and both did a decent job running what they had, again, Kudos!
To be honest, I would like to see a round two with the only modification being Tool on a drag radial to validate all the above. How 'bout it boys?
Thanks for reading.
Strongly dis-agree, we are talking about the same 2 cars , we are not comparing a drag car and a road car , both cars are pretty much the same for suspension launch etc and i did say 1.7 is the practical best for 60ft. , If ST had left the firestones @ home and used DR, the story would have been a lot different , If he had turned the boost down he would have picked up 5/10 on the street tires , @ TMS current power levels 12.0 would be his best , i would expect to see 11.7 out of ST's setup all things remaining Equal .....
08-03-2007, 10:48 AM
#569
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I too have been Drag racing for years. I dis-agree with Under pressure. He's way off. I'm kinda shocked he's even making these statements. yeah, slower speeds can win, but that's just not a comparison here. TMS951 Credit is due for being one of the better Short times. But.......St just has sooooooo much more potential with stick. Way beyond a 12.6!? Is he kidding? Bench racing. Its a pretty dumb thing to do. But it is fun at times. I'm pretty Sure ST will blow away a 12.6 in short order. This was his first time. I don't think anyone here was awesome at anything they did the first time. (joked aside) : )
08-03-2007, 11:01 AM
#570
Race Car
+1
I just didn't wan't to be the first to say it as I am new here. With all due respect.
A good example is my little 44 It pulls 2.0 60' times but doesn't have the power to carry out the times.
I have also had my old Nova on a track that was complete crap and instead of the normal mid 8's it couldn't get better than 10.80. This was with the same tires (32x14 firestone slicks)
I will stand by my previous statement that he will be in the low 11's. Hopefully high 10's. I am generally not this optimistic either I can just see some major power loss (ET loss) with that type of slippage.
I just didn't wan't to be the first to say it as I am new here. With all due respect.
A good example is my little 44 It pulls 2.0 60' times but doesn't have the power to carry out the times.
I have also had my old Nova on a track that was complete crap and instead of the normal mid 8's it couldn't get better than 10.80. This was with the same tires (32x14 firestone slicks)
I will stand by my previous statement that he will be in the low 11's. Hopefully high 10's. I am generally not this optimistic either I can just see some major power loss (ET loss) with that type of slippage.