Mike B

Thanks Nize...I (we) appreciate your first hand experience and opinion.

SoloRacer

Nice write up. I was under the impression that the Garrett ball bearing turbos were prone to early failure and that the rebuild costs were signifigantly higher because you had to replace the entire ball bearing center section. Because of these reasons the marginal differences in spool, etc. were not going to make them worth the extra cost to the average joe. To the race crowd that needs every last ounce of performance it might be worth it.

On another note, it's probably important to say that you are running a stand alone EMS and not custom chips provided by the vendor which would make your results not something that the average joe could expect to bolt on and go with. Without good tuning knowledge or at least a tried and true chipset/ECU map how does the average guy go about getting the results? You mention the cost of several of the competitors but forget that the additional services that they might provide for the plug and play type of application. My 968 Turbo has a ball bearing unit in it and a Motec tuned by Kelly Moss Racing/Milledge Engineering. To be fair I wouldn't advertise this set up as a competitor of Vitesse or Lindsey since they are providing a bolt on package and not a custom one off set up. I can't help but think of the set up in your car in the same light as I do my 968 Turbo.

Congrats on getting you project done and I am definately interested in seeing your dyno results.

nize

i have 'heard' this as well. however, there is absolutely no proof of this. in fact, the proof shows that dual ball bearing turbos are more reliable than thrust bearing. from http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...ochargers.html ;

Proven performance

Garrett's ball bearing cartridge has proven its worth in the highest level of motorsports where it has been the bearing system of choice in CART FEDEX ChampCar Series, 24 Hours of Le Mans, Pikes Peak International Hill Climb, World Rally Championship, and most recently Drag Racing. These premier racing customers demand no less than the best in durability, reliability, and power on demand. One key contributor to this performance lies in the ball bearing cartridge where it is, by design, surrounded by a thin film of oil. The oil film damps out destructive vibrations that would otherwise compromise turbo durability.

A clear demonstration of the inherent superiority of Garrett's ball bearing design is in the launch of a turbocharged drag race car. The two-step rev limiters used to build boost on the line expose the turbo to the harshest imaginable conditions of pressure spikes and scorching temperatures. Where lesser turbos often fail catastrophically, Garrett ball bearing turbos regularly shrug off these brutal conditions time after time. In fact, many drag racers running Garrett ball bearing turbos have not needed to rebuild or replace their turbos for multiple seasons. Can you say that about your turbo?

actually, my standalone ems is precisely what allows me to perform an accurate side-by-side comparison of this turbo vs. the stock k26/8 turbo. from what i can tell so far, the spool up speed is identical. the only difference is that this turbo holds boost past redline, where the stock turbo would die down. i also have a local buddy with an identical turbo who is not running standalone, he is running autothority stage2 chips (my old chips). i will post before/after dynos of his car as well just to show the similarity in quick spool time vs. the stock turbo on a car without standalone ems.

actually, pauer tuning does provide a plug-and-play bolt-on solution. the only mod you would need to do is the j-boot adaptor to fit the 3" compressor intake. i can't imagine anyone other than lindsey would be able to provide this adapter solution, unless the other bolt-ons have the 2" compressor intake. it makes no sense to have a 2" intake if you're going with a bigger turbo, however.

i did mention that i ordered the j-boot adapter from lindsey. this would make the package a complete plug-and-play bolt-on solution for a stock 951 with a stock intake system and stock wastegate. this is, in fact, the exact setup that my buddy is doing, with no changes to the ecu, boost control, or anything else.

thanks ! i am thinking in about a week or so, i will have the new dyno.

SoloRacer

Just to clarify, is Pauer Tuning offering a tuned chipset for this turbo? Do they have before and after dyno sheets from using their plug and play system? Are they using the stock AFM or a MAF? You mention plug and play regarding hooking up the components with no information on the actual EMS side which to me is the most important part of the plug and play experience. Does Pauer Tuning have a tuned map for your EMS and your turbo making it plug and play? Or is the tuning up to you? How much was your turbo swap when you factor in the Wolf 3D? Sorry for all the questions but to me it's still unclear what you consider plug and play and how you compared the costs vs. the other tuner products. I've had experience with the Wolf products on my RX7's and their new system is much better than their older ones but if you factor the price of the Lindsey Wolf EMS package and dyno time into your turbo system cost wouldn't it be more than buying a tuned package from Vitesse or Lindsey?

Edit: The reliabilty of the ball bearing turbos that you quote is from Garretts marketing website. Do you have a unbiased reference for their reliability? I did a quick google search and found issues regarding oil pressure, etc. but I can't open those websites at work and have to go home to look at them to see what they are saying. I do remember a few years ago looking into ball bearing turbos and reading a fair bit about the failures that were occuring with the Garrett/Turbonetics sealed units. Perhaps there is a new design? How much does it cost to rebuild a ball bearing unit?

nize

no, but i hear one is in the works.

that is what i will be providing. also, there are plenty of before/after dyno sheets on the dual ball bearing turbo vs journal bearing turbos that show ball bearings spool faster, just not for the 951 (yet).

i'm using the stock intake system, with MAP. my friend with the stock 951 is using an all-stock system with the only swap being an identical turbo as mine.

i'm comparing turbo vs. turbo. that is all. the 'cloudy' comparisons are actually introduced when you factor in the different 'tuning' solutions, which i am not doing. my tune has not changed from the stock k26/8 turbo setup. i'm sure i could get this new turbo to spool even quicker and boost higher than the stock turbo by changing my tune, but i am not going to (yet) because i'm not comparing different tunes, just different turbos. i was in the market for a turbo-only. vitesse wanted $2200 for the stage2 turbo only (which i have heard is a thrust bearing). compare that with $1500 for a true garrett dual ball bearing turbo from pauer tuning and you can see how big the vitesse markup is. as i've mentioned before, similar thrust bearing turbos can be had retail for $700.

probably. again, i was not comparing pre-tuned packages, i was comparing turbochargers only.

as far as pre-tuned packages go, i would rather pay $2000 for a standalone system that you can tune yourself, than pay x-dollars for an unknown pre-tuned single-solution setup with no provisions for future mods. but again, i am not comparing tunes as that is a seperate debate and adds to the smoke and mirrors, just turbos.

http://www.turbosunleashed.com/old/hybrid.htm
Improved Rotordynamics and Durability- DBB cartridge provides improved damping and control over shaft motion allowing enhanced reliability for both everyday and extreme driving conditions. Also eliminates the need for thrust bearing. This may well be the last turbo you will ever need to buy.

http://www.horsepowerinabox.com/hpiab2/category12_2.htm
Usual ultra reliability and superb response from the Garrett ball bearing design.

http://www.turbotech.com.au/garrett4.htm
The Garrett "full cartridge" dual ball bearing systems have been qualified in various OEM production based programs. The same ball bearing system's durability and reliability has been well proven in winning Indy 500 race cars and in grueling 24 hour endurance races.

etc, etc.

it may be marketing propaganda, but you still can't deny that competition race-winning cars are running garrett dual ball bearing turbos. porsche proves their cars by winning races, why can't you believe garrett can prove their turbos the same way?

i have no idea how much it costs to rebuild a ball bearing turbo. when was the last time you've had to rebuild your turbo? my stock one lasted over 209k miles, and if ball bearing turbos are more reliable than 209k miles, that's enough for me.

as far as rebuilding costs go, it costs $700 to rebuild my failed stock k26/8 and $700 to buy a brand-new one. the argument 'it costs more to rebuild a failed turbo' actually applies to journal bearing turbos as well.

Porschefile

Funny how I've been saying the same stuff for so long about how widely proven Garrett's stuff is, and only just now people are starting to catch on. j/k True, you have to take info from a manufacturer with a grain of salt due to their personal interest in the success of their products. However, I can say without a doubt there isn't one single other turbo manufacturer out there that gives you as much scientific info, specs, as well as educational info to better understand turbochargers. Regardless of whether Garrett says their stuff is the best, the simple fact is they ARE the best.

Soloracer, there are a huge number of misconceptions, urban myths, etc when it comes to ball bearing turbos, as well as Garrett's stuff and their newer GT series stuff. They did in fact have a few more issues in the early 90's with their early ball bearing designs. However, with the release of the GT series so many years ago, all of those bugs have been ironed out. The one major key factor here is Garrett's ball bearing center sections are very finicky and don't put up with much improper usage. Improper usage means using way too much oil pressure and over-pressurizing the center section (no oil restrictor), as well as running the coolant ports completely dry (oil only), overboosting, etc etc. The big problem is there are so many people out there that do a hack @ss job of installing these turbos, and then they don't even understand how to properly use them. The end result, the turbos don't work properly and then internet heresay starts to spread like a wildfire. They are excellent and reliable turbos when used properly.

I helped an acquaintance of mine upgrading his Nissan 240sx (it had an Sr20 swap). We put a Gt3071r internally gated turbo on it. Unfortunately he is a complete idiot and didn't check that all the lines, clamps, etc were tight. The wastegate actuator line came off and the turbo was freeboosting for a few hours one night when he was driving by himself. Long story short, that was enough to destroy the turbo to the point where the wheels started contacting the housings. Don't get me wrong though. The GT series can handle lots of boost (under endurance racing they'll wear out more quickly though), but with the turbo freeboosting that adds a lot of strain. Bottom line, run a proper restrictor (depends on the motor, not all will run the same size restrictor), ensure you have proper boost control, make sure you have coolant plumbed to the turbo (or at the very least oil plumbed through the coolant ports), and that's about it.

As far as the argument about the Garrett ballbearing turbos and spool compared to thrust bearing equivalents, it's a pretty simple concept. Many of the newer Garrett wheels, especially the GT series, are lighter than their equivalent sized older counterparts however they are more durable due to the way they are manufactured. On top of that, their wheel's aerodynamics have been improved through the use of CFD among other things. In many cases, I have personally seen GT series have similar boost thresholds to older T series equivalents. Best case, maybe there is a 100-300rpm improvement. The BIG and most important improvement is transient response. Actual spool time will decrease, meaning if the old turbo took 2 seconds to spool, the GT might spool in only 1 second (generic example but, you get the idea). Improved aerodynamics, lighter, stronger wheels, etc etc. What's not to understand? The answer is pretty simple, so there's no real need to get into detailed engineering aspects, or arguments about metallurgy, etc etc. No need to make things more complicated than they need to be IMO.

Nize, that's some pretty crazy spool! I would have expected it would be 200-400rpm laggier. Is yours ball bearing? So is it something like a #8 hotside bored out a bit? I would tend to think the #10 would still have more flow capacity and would be 300-400rpm laggier. Honestly, your spool time sounds a bit too responsive to me as I like a bit higher of a boost threshold, if you can believe such a concept. Hmm, I think I want a 50 trim #10 now. What turbine are you running on yours if you don't mind my asking?

nize

mine is a true garrett dual ball bearing. there is a difference, as turbonetics makes a single ball bearing knockoff.

i really don't want to release turbine specifics, as i'd like to protect vic's research and effort, but if you ask pauer tuning, he can hook you up with the identical turbo that i have.

i will say that the turbine is balanced to +200krpm and it is not clipped nor modified in any way.

Porschefile

Well, my main motive for asking is personally, I want a turbo that is large enough that it will have 1bar of boost more around 3.3-3.5k rpm. I like a bit higher of a boost threshold as usually that means the turbo is large enough that it will "hit" real hard when it comes on. I was thinking maybe a 50 trim #10 should be something like that.

SoloRacer

Thanks for the answers. I'm glad that everyone has maintained a good tone in this thread. I didn't want to come across as a troll on your thread. It just seemed to me that you were holding Pauer to a different and more lenient standard (ie: no dyno sheets that you demand and chastise others for, no actual results on a 951, etc.) I can fully understand your excitement regarding your purchase but I think I would have left out the vendor criticism in this thread. It could very well be that the ball bearing unit is all you believe it be but you have to admit that your situation - stand alone EMS, etc is far and removed from 90% of the general population. It's like me saying that my KMR 968 Turbo is what everyone should expect from bolting on a turbo when it's not.

When you mention you are comparing turbo's only and not tunes you have to admit that the tuning can often times make the turbo. I don't believe you can compare two turbo's on the same car without taking into consideration the tune. A poorly tuned ball bearing unit will very likely perform worse than a stock turbo and probably result in engine failure and vice versa. Right? So you can't just pull the tuning out of the comparison and then say you are "getting rid of the smoke and mirrors". If anything by leaving the tuning and the capabilities of the EMS out of the picture you only increase the "smoke and mirrors". Wouldn't a fairer comparison be to put the same turbo on the same car with the same system (DME / Wolf 3D / Motec / etc.) and the same supporting mods and then compare the the results? This is the basis for my argument against comparing how certain turbos work on other cars and then saying you should expect the same results here. It only ends up being a smoke and mirrors / he said-she said show until someone can give us results based upon the exact same car.

If you had two turbos that both produced the same power levels but the one that had a 100-200 rpm improvement in spool and better transient response also cost twice as much to buy and rebuild would you say it was worth it? It's hard to say. Now what if someone told you that the turbo hadn't even been proven on your make/model of car? I'm hope Pauer is able to give us more real meaningful data than just the turbo specs than any of us can read from the Garrett website.

Again, I thank everyone for being civil and it is my opinion these kind of discussions are good provided the mud slinging / vendor "enthusiasm/bashing" doesn't muddle the picture.

nize

what boost level will you be running? what's the point of getting more lag if you can hold 21+psi to redline with this turbo?

SoloRacer

Not to jump all over you but isn't the "full disclosure of specs" the reason you chose Pauer to begin with and criticized others for not doing? I'm fully understanding of a vendor protecting their research but you have to admit it's sort of the pot calling the kettle black.

User 41221

For a point of reference, I have a Vitesse Stage II set up on my 951 and am achieving the same goals that you were seeking. Karl at Imagine Auto and I will be doing some tuning and dyno the car shortly, and I will post the results. We have dyno'd the car once, untuned, and are just below 350 rwhp, and its been very much plug and play, as far as turbo installs go. I have been extremely happy with John and his products.

That said, congrats on acheiving what you are wanting to acheive! There are many ways to skin this cat, and I have an appreciation for the way you are approaching this. Out of curiosity, do you have a dyno chart yet?

Regards,

SoloRacer

Hey Porschey - does this mean you are keeping the car and starting the big turbo build all over again?

nize

this is exactly what i am doing.

this is exactly what my 951 buddy with a completely stock system will be doing.

the only thing that changes in the before/after results is the turbocharger. nothing else. that is the most 'fair' comparison possible.

nize

not yet. i should in about two weeks.

do you have a before/after dyno chart ? i'd love to compare results.

also, how are you tuning the car? i thought the vitesses system was a single pre-tuned solution.