Standalone EMS...?
06-26-2007, 07:58 AM
#226
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Nize
Unless the knocksystem was designed for the 951 as explained before , it is a nice feature to have , kinda like having closed loop via narrow band , I'm Positive if you are running it as you state you will have ,
1. Performance that will be unstable...
2. A car slower than what it is really capable off..
on the plus side ,
1. you will get protection from bad gas or octane which is lower than what it was tuned for .
2. protection from bad injectors , over boost etc...
Both situation can be compensated for by a knowledgeable user , but yes for an average person not keen to such stuff , it is safer with the knock setup...
If this was your top priority then you have the system for you , but you seem more interested in a direct comparison of wolf vs the rest as oppose to what is technically better and why and since you are the person tuning the car , the best system is the one you are most comfortable with , doesn't make it the best , just the best for you ...
Unless the knocksystem was designed for the 951 as explained before , it is a nice feature to have , kinda like having closed loop via narrow band , I'm Positive if you are running it as you state you will have ,
1. Performance that will be unstable...
2. A car slower than what it is really capable off..
on the plus side ,
1. you will get protection from bad gas or octane which is lower than what it was tuned for .
2. protection from bad injectors , over boost etc...
Both situation can be compensated for by a knowledgeable user , but yes for an average person not keen to such stuff , it is safer with the knock setup...
If this was your top priority then you have the system for you , but you seem more interested in a direct comparison of wolf vs the rest as oppose to what is technically better and why and since you are the person tuning the car , the best system is the one you are most comfortable with , doesn't make it the best , just the best for you ...
I can't see the problem if Nize or anyone else wants to run that as a backup. Nowhere has he stated that he is relying on that to tune with has he? Nobody is disagreeing with anyone else that the tuner and the backup is most vital. Maybe I'm being naive in wanting to protect my ever increasing money pit. In fact if I was told that I was running at 5% or more under my absolute potential, that would do me fine. I'll run it to 100% when you guys decide to sponsor me.
PS I have no alliance to Wolf or to Nize. In fact I'm looking at another brand.
06-26-2007, 09:48 AM
#227
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OK, to be more to the point – I don’t have any issues with the Wolf stuff, its seems OK but I haven’t used it so I won’t pass judgment on it either positive or negative.
The point that I am picking on (sorry nize but this is how I see it) is that the Wolf is being touted as the great answer because of the knock detection and boost reduction / ignition retard function. Sure, that is a nice thing to have but it is not, at least in my mind, a primary reason to buy into an EMS system. From my experience I haven’t found any aftermarket knock detection system (other than the smartfire) to be highly accurate. You need to do a serious amount of spectral analysis to determine what the knock signature of the modified engine is – way beyond anything other than an auto manufacturer is capable of. The Tec3 / TecGT has knock detection and timing retard programmability and I do look at it during tuning but once tuned I only leave it in the loop at certain RPM ranges. Very similar to what I do with O2 sensors.
The other point that I haven’t dwelled on but it keeps being mentioned – and again this is just my view – the concept of upgrading to a EMS set up and reusing a 20 year old harness and sensors just does not make sense to me. Especially the wiring harness part. I have seen way more bad harness that I care to remember. They are the root cause of most of the intermittent issues. In fact, come to think of it, if I were running an old stock harness I would want the knock control because you can’t be certain that the system is working perfectly. I would not trust a high dollar engine to an old harness – but maybe that’s where we differ – most of my systems are going on new engines.
Maybe we are just catering to different markets, I feel that if you want a true stand alone EMS then you need to step up to the plate and do it right. Just my opinion.
If the Wolf is working for you guys then that is great – I am happy for you. If you really want to impress/inform me and possibly some of the other folks then tell me how accurate it is, how does it deal with spark dwell time, can it diagnose failing sensors, how does it calculate the ignition timing, and other stuff that has to do with engine management – like is the boost control continuously variable via a ****?
The point that I am picking on (sorry nize but this is how I see it) is that the Wolf is being touted as the great answer because of the knock detection and boost reduction / ignition retard function. Sure, that is a nice thing to have but it is not, at least in my mind, a primary reason to buy into an EMS system. From my experience I haven’t found any aftermarket knock detection system (other than the smartfire) to be highly accurate. You need to do a serious amount of spectral analysis to determine what the knock signature of the modified engine is – way beyond anything other than an auto manufacturer is capable of. The Tec3 / TecGT has knock detection and timing retard programmability and I do look at it during tuning but once tuned I only leave it in the loop at certain RPM ranges. Very similar to what I do with O2 sensors.
The other point that I haven’t dwelled on but it keeps being mentioned – and again this is just my view – the concept of upgrading to a EMS set up and reusing a 20 year old harness and sensors just does not make sense to me. Especially the wiring harness part. I have seen way more bad harness that I care to remember. They are the root cause of most of the intermittent issues. In fact, come to think of it, if I were running an old stock harness I would want the knock control because you can’t be certain that the system is working perfectly. I would not trust a high dollar engine to an old harness – but maybe that’s where we differ – most of my systems are going on new engines.
Maybe we are just catering to different markets, I feel that if you want a true stand alone EMS then you need to step up to the plate and do it right. Just my opinion.
If the Wolf is working for you guys then that is great – I am happy for you. If you really want to impress/inform me and possibly some of the other folks then tell me how accurate it is, how does it deal with spark dwell time, can it diagnose failing sensors, how does it calculate the ignition timing, and other stuff that has to do with engine management – like is the boost control continuously variable via a ****?
06-26-2007, 10:23 AM
#228
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Originally Posted by 333pg333
This 'discussion' seems to be rotating up it's own....I don't think that there's anything Nize has said to imply that he is running at less than premium tune. Hell, he may be but you can't presume just based on his desire to protect his engine with a backup. Why can't he be tuned on the edge of no return as some of you are virtually recommending. 'Hey if you're not living on the edge you're taking up too much space' seems to be the catchcry of one or two out there. Ok let's look at it this way. If whatever system you guys prefer to the Wolf came along and said to you after you've done all this cutting edge tuning, 'Hey guess what, we've got a knock control that will work in with your current system and we'd like you to try it for free'. What would you say? 'No thanks, I don't need that **** because my tuner is da man and he can't possibly be wrong'. No, I didn't think so. You'd probably ask why have they decided to introduce that now? They'd probably say 'Because we've only just perfected it'
I can't see the problem if Nize or anyone else wants to run that as a backup. Nowhere has he stated that he is relying on that to tune with has he? Nobody is disagreeing with anyone else that the tuner and the backup is most vital. Maybe I'm being naive in wanting to protect my ever increasing money pit. In fact if I was told that I was running at 5% or more under my absolute potential, that would do me fine. I'll run it to 100% when you guys decide to sponsor me.
PS I have no alliance to Wolf or to Nize. In fact I'm looking at another brand.
I can't see the problem if Nize or anyone else wants to run that as a backup. Nowhere has he stated that he is relying on that to tune with has he? Nobody is disagreeing with anyone else that the tuner and the backup is most vital. Maybe I'm being naive in wanting to protect my ever increasing money pit. In fact if I was told that I was running at 5% or more under my absolute potential, that would do me fine. I'll run it to 100% when you guys decide to sponsor me.
PS I have no alliance to Wolf or to Nize. In fact I'm looking at another brand.
As to the potential i would say he is leaving 20-25% on the table .......
06-26-2007, 10:34 AM
#229
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Fair enough and I think Chris is making good points too. As I said I have no allegiance to Wolf, I just thought Nize may have been getting a bit of a raw deal on some of the things he was saying. I think I may have written that just after I had some annoying news. No probs from me and happy to hear all opinions.
06-26-2007, 01:20 PM
#230
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Nize
Unless the knocksystem was designed for the 951 as explained before , it is a nice feature to have , kinda like having closed loop via narrow band , I'm Positive if you are running it as you state you will have,
1. Performance that will be unstable...
2. A car slower than what it is really capable off..
on the plus side ,
1. you will get protection from bad gas or octane which is lower than what it was tuned for .
2. protection from bad injectors , over boost etc...
Both situation can be compensated for by a knowledgeable user , but yes for an average person not keen to such stuff , it is safer with the knock setup...
If this was your top priority then you have the system for you , but you seem more interested in a direct comparision of wolf vs the rest as oppose to what is technically better and why and since you are the person tuning the car , the best system is the one you are most comfortable with , does,nt make it the best , just the best for you ...
Unless the knocksystem was designed for the 951 as explained before , it is a nice feature to have , kinda like having closed loop via narrow band , I'm Positive if you are running it as you state you will have,
1. Performance that will be unstable...
2. A car slower than what it is really capable off..
on the plus side ,
1. you will get protection from bad gas or octane which is lower than what it was tuned for .
2. protection from bad injectors , over boost etc...
Both situation can be compensated for by a knowledgeable user , but yes for an average person not keen to such stuff , it is safer with the knock setup...
If this was your top priority then you have the system for you , but you seem more interested in a direct comparision of wolf vs the rest as oppose to what is technically better and why and since you are the person tuning the car , the best system is the one you are most comfortable with , does,nt make it the best , just the best for you ...
can you explain exactly how a 'knowledgeable user' can compensate with protection from bad gas and bad injectors without knock protection?
keep in mind that my car is actually tuned right. we're not talking about a bad tune here.
and why are we still discussing sour grapes instead of more features?
06-26-2007, 01:29 PM
#231
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Originally Posted by Chris White
OK, to be more to the point – I don’t have any issues with the Wolf stuff, its seems OK but I haven’t used it so I won’t pass judgment on it either positive or negative.
The point that I am picking on (sorry nize but this is how I see it) is that the Wolf is being touted as the great answer because of the knock detection and boost reduction / ignition retard function. Sure, that is a nice thing to have but it is not, at least in my mind, a primary reason to buy into an EMS system. From my experience I haven’t found any aftermarket knock detection system (other than the smartfire) to be highly accurate. You need to do a serious amount of spectral analysis to determine what the knock signature of the modified engine is – way beyond anything other than an auto manufacturer is capable of. The Tec3 / TecGT has knock detection and timing retard programmability and I do look at it during tuning but once tuned I only leave it in the loop at certain RPM ranges. Very similar to what I do with O2 sensors.
The other point that I haven’t dwelled on but it keeps being mentioned – and again this is just my view – the concept of upgrading to a EMS set up and reusing a 20 year old harness and sensors just does not make sense to me. Especially the wiring harness part. I have seen way more bad harness that I care to remember. They are the root cause of most of the intermittent issues. In fact, come to think of it, if I were running an old stock harness I would want the knock control because you can’t be certain that the system is working perfectly. I would not trust a high dollar engine to an old harness – but maybe that’s where we differ – most of my systems are going on new engines.
Maybe we are just catering to different markets, I feel that if you want a true stand alone EMS then you need to step up to the plate and do it right. Just my opinion.
If the Wolf is working for you guys then that is great – I am happy for you. If you really want to impress/inform me and possibly some of the other folks then tell me how accurate it is, how does it deal with spark dwell time, can it diagnose failing sensors, how does it calculate the ignition timing, and other stuff that has to do with engine management – like is the boost control continuously variable via a ****?
The point that I am picking on (sorry nize but this is how I see it) is that the Wolf is being touted as the great answer because of the knock detection and boost reduction / ignition retard function. Sure, that is a nice thing to have but it is not, at least in my mind, a primary reason to buy into an EMS system. From my experience I haven’t found any aftermarket knock detection system (other than the smartfire) to be highly accurate. You need to do a serious amount of spectral analysis to determine what the knock signature of the modified engine is – way beyond anything other than an auto manufacturer is capable of. The Tec3 / TecGT has knock detection and timing retard programmability and I do look at it during tuning but once tuned I only leave it in the loop at certain RPM ranges. Very similar to what I do with O2 sensors.
The other point that I haven’t dwelled on but it keeps being mentioned – and again this is just my view – the concept of upgrading to a EMS set up and reusing a 20 year old harness and sensors just does not make sense to me. Especially the wiring harness part. I have seen way more bad harness that I care to remember. They are the root cause of most of the intermittent issues. In fact, come to think of it, if I were running an old stock harness I would want the knock control because you can’t be certain that the system is working perfectly. I would not trust a high dollar engine to an old harness – but maybe that’s where we differ – most of my systems are going on new engines.
Maybe we are just catering to different markets, I feel that if you want a true stand alone EMS then you need to step up to the plate and do it right. Just my opinion.
If the Wolf is working for you guys then that is great – I am happy for you. If you really want to impress/inform me and possibly some of the other folks then tell me how accurate it is, how does it deal with spark dwell time, can it diagnose failing sensors, how does it calculate the ignition timing, and other stuff that has to do with engine management – like is the boost control continuously variable via a ****?
it makes you (and everyone else) sound like you're trying to promote an inferior product by slamming other products.
06-26-2007, 01:31 PM
#232
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Originally Posted by A.Wayne
Not sure how this relates to anything i have said... I thought i was pretty clear in the pro and con dept.
As to the potential i would say he is leaving 20-25% on the table .......
As to the potential i would say he is leaving 20-25% on the table .......
06-26-2007, 02:01 PM
#233
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Originally Posted by nize
chris, this is more sour grapes. why not talk about features that may be unique to the tek3 system that you think makes it better instead of nitpicking on features other systems have that tek3 doesn't?
it makes you (and everyone else) sound like you're trying to promote an inferior product by slamming other products.
it makes you (and everyone else) sound like you're trying to promote an inferior product by slamming other products.
06-26-2007, 02:51 PM
#235
My take on all of this is the ECU and final tune nets safe and usable Torque. What ever asystem you use, it should be selected for the needs of the user. Some systems have ceratin functions and some do not. The issue I have is with systems that promote functionsd that they either do not have or do not do very well.
To get into promoting one system over another here, is not fair and against the rules of this forum.
One also needs to be careful about stating certain features that are important, when by assocation with a ceratin EFI system, that system is known not to do them very well.
Often, a system is taken to task for its inability, when the real issue is the user not doing/using the system very well. Poor tuning is always the problem with all systems.
To get into promoting one system over another here, is not fair and against the rules of this forum.
One also needs to be careful about stating certain features that are important, when by assocation with a ceratin EFI system, that system is known not to do them very well.
Often, a system is taken to task for its inability, when the real issue is the user not doing/using the system very well. Poor tuning is always the problem with all systems.
06-26-2007, 03:17 PM
#236
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I am with Chris W. on the knock sensor issue. Each engine has its own acoustic knock signature and with only one sensor in use, each cylinder is slightly different too. The engine also has a certain noise spectrum (both frequency content and amplitude), which is a function of rpm and load. Unless there are some engine specific filtering schemes, it would only be luck if the knock signal can be extracted from the noise at high rpm. Therefore general aftermarket knock sensing has very limited usability, unless it comes with very flexible filter programming and even with that, it requires significant engineering hours to set up such filters.
Another thing to consider in using a knock sensing system without strong filtering are some potential side-effects, not yet mentioned in this thread.
A partially collapsed engine mount, rattling components or a cam follower that gradually goes bad could be picked up as knock with max timing retardation as a result.
I know, the quick response to that scenario is “get it fixed”, but remember to use the same argument when something fails that causes knocking.
Lastly our ears are very good sensors (especially if they are well-trained), we even have dynamic filters build in, as an example: being able to listen to selective conversations at a party. Except above maybe 5500 rpm it should be possible to audibly detect any destructive detonation.
I know some people here believe in destructive silent detonation. I don’t, but that is a long discussion, that I don’t have time to go into here and now.
Laust
(detonation => knocking = pinging)
Another thing to consider in using a knock sensing system without strong filtering are some potential side-effects, not yet mentioned in this thread.
A partially collapsed engine mount, rattling components or a cam follower that gradually goes bad could be picked up as knock with max timing retardation as a result.
I know, the quick response to that scenario is “get it fixed”, but remember to use the same argument when something fails that causes knocking.
Lastly our ears are very good sensors (especially if they are well-trained), we even have dynamic filters build in, as an example: being able to listen to selective conversations at a party. Except above maybe 5500 rpm it should be possible to audibly detect any destructive detonation.
I know some people here believe in destructive silent detonation. I don’t, but that is a long discussion, that I don’t have time to go into here and now.
Laust
(detonation => knocking = pinging)
06-26-2007, 03:28 PM
#237
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Originally Posted by Cory9584
Does anybody know what systems the clewett crank trigger is compatable with? I know its good for a tec3 but is that it?
06-26-2007, 03:42 PM
#238
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Originally Posted by m42racer
My take on all of this is the ECU and final tune nets safe and usable Torque. What ever asystem you use, it should be selected for the needs of the user. Some systems have ceratin functions and some do not. The issue I have is with systems that promote functionsd that they either do not have or do not do very well.
To get into promoting one system over another here, is not fair and against the rules of this forum.
One also needs to be careful about stating certain features that are important, when by assocation with a ceratin EFI system, that system is known not to do them very well.
Often, a system is taken to task for its inability, when the real issue is the user not doing/using the system very well. Poor tuning is always the problem with all systems.
To get into promoting one system over another here, is not fair and against the rules of this forum.
One also needs to be careful about stating certain features that are important, when by assocation with a ceratin EFI system, that system is known not to do them very well.
Often, a system is taken to task for its inability, when the real issue is the user not doing/using the system very well. Poor tuning is always the problem with all systems.
06-26-2007, 04:22 PM
#240
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Originally Posted by nize
i completely agree. now let's hear about these functions that are unique to other systems. are there any?
I know (and use) system that has all this (+fully configurable boost controller, lots of inputs (switches for anti-lag, flatshift etc), outputs etc) and all this for a price app. 1000$. I think this is pretty unique.
Wolf is not bad, but there's no point in gloryfing it in every possible way.