Standalone EMS...?
06-22-2007, 06:53 PM
#166
Three Wheelin'
I won't delude myself or others claiming the MS is a giant killer. Its properly priced in the market. Even at the pennies on the dollar spent compared to other systems, most people steer as far away as possible. Many are simply skeptical of something at this level that is completely DIY. Rightfully so in many cases, an MS build and install is only as good as the installer. But the system itself isn't something to just roll your eyes at.
Obviously 2+ years of install is an exaggeration, but its certainly NOT a single evening, or even weekend proposition. Figure about 100 hours minimum for your first install, if you're not blazing entirely new territory. My last two installs have been completely unique, so teething was a bit more annoying than a strait forward install. I'd still group the 951 in the completely unique category, I think there's only a handfull of 944 MS'ers, and none are using the same configuration. I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment.
I agree that some enterprising individual could make a mint offering PNP systems for a huge range of vehicles in the $800-1000 range. DIY-Autotune recently released a fully assembled PNP system for 1st Gen Miatas for only $700. Thats an excellent deal for those guys. Some cars lend themselves to PNP more than others, our cars have the separate boxes for fuel and ignition that could give some trouble. I'm positive that someone could get the MS to control the stock KLR box if they really knew what they were doing. I don't think I could do it though, and I want to run COP ignition so the benefits are limited without re-working the KLR as well.
(Edited for missing the "NOT" in estimating how long it takes to install!)
Obviously 2+ years of install is an exaggeration, but its certainly NOT a single evening, or even weekend proposition. Figure about 100 hours minimum for your first install, if you're not blazing entirely new territory. My last two installs have been completely unique, so teething was a bit more annoying than a strait forward install. I'd still group the 951 in the completely unique category, I think there's only a handfull of 944 MS'ers, and none are using the same configuration. I guess I'm just a glutton for punishment.
I agree that some enterprising individual could make a mint offering PNP systems for a huge range of vehicles in the $800-1000 range. DIY-Autotune recently released a fully assembled PNP system for 1st Gen Miatas for only $700. Thats an excellent deal for those guys. Some cars lend themselves to PNP more than others, our cars have the separate boxes for fuel and ignition that could give some trouble. I'm positive that someone could get the MS to control the stock KLR box if they really knew what they were doing. I don't think I could do it though, and I want to run COP ignition so the benefits are limited without re-working the KLR as well.
(Edited for missing the "NOT" in estimating how long it takes to install!)
Last edited by DanG; 06-22-2007 at 07:12 PM.
06-22-2007, 09:14 PM
#167
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Originally Posted by gt37vgt
the apparent quick set up of the wolf is impressive but at the price people pay for it and its massive lack of features the motonic editotors like max tune kill it ..
sooner or later someone will offer the megasquirt set up with a trigger and a base map and a few sensors for around 8or 900 this will make sense
sooner or later someone will offer the megasquirt set up with a trigger and a base map and a few sensors for around 8or 900 this will make sense
06-22-2007, 10:42 PM
#168
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Porschefile
Yes, a good quality aftermarket EMS that's properly tuned can provide noticeable improvements over piggybacks. Part of the problem is quality and tuning. Most modern aftermarket EMS are pretty high quality and offer plenty of advanced features, so that's not too much of an issue. If there's one thing I have learned, it's that tuning is a fine art and there really aren't too many individuals out there that can truly do an excellent job tuning (I sure as hell can't! 
). I've seen lots of hack @ss tunes on a wide variety of cars, and then proper tunes done on the same cars gain as much as 100whp just from improving over the generic stuff done by an amateur. The nice thing about modern aftermarket EMS is there are so many advanced options that there are a ton of possibilities and tons of little improvements you can make to a car. Got problems with a sluggish/rough powerband below 2000rpm? No problem with an aftermarket ems as you usually have a larger number of load sites and can tune at smaller rpm intervals and over a wider rpm range so you can actually have drivability at extremely low rpm (to some degree). Having problems with unequal runner airflow through an intake manifold? No problem because when properly setup in the right configuration, many aftermarket ems can allow you to individually tune cylinder fuel and ignition loads so you never have to worry about running lean in 1 cylinder again. Anyways, there's plenty more examples where that came from. The cool thing is this advanced technology is leaking into the piggyback market as well, so there are piggybacks out there that can allow you to convert to sequential injection, individually tune cylinders, convert to a CDI or coil on plug setup, etc etc. Technology is just plain awesome!
). I've seen lots of hack @ss tunes on a wide variety of cars, and then proper tunes done on the same cars gain as much as 100whp just from improving over the generic stuff done by an amateur. The nice thing about modern aftermarket EMS is there are so many advanced options that there are a ton of possibilities and tons of little improvements you can make to a car. Got problems with a sluggish/rough powerband below 2000rpm? No problem with an aftermarket ems as you usually have a larger number of load sites and can tune at smaller rpm intervals and over a wider rpm range so you can actually have drivability at extremely low rpm (to some degree). Having problems with unequal runner airflow through an intake manifold? No problem because when properly setup in the right configuration, many aftermarket ems can allow you to individually tune cylinder fuel and ignition loads so you never have to worry about running lean in 1 cylinder again. Anyways, there's plenty more examples where that came from. The cool thing is this advanced technology is leaking into the piggyback market as well, so there are piggybacks out there that can allow you to convert to sequential injection, individually tune cylinders, convert to a CDI or coil on plug setup, etc etc. Technology is just plain awesome! Are there unbiased comparisons of aftermarket ems'? It seems like many people have their favourites, but Motec is certainly priced above the pack. Why?
For people like me who aren't up to speed on these sort of things and their pro's and con's it would be good to find a layman's guide and I'm sure I'm not Robinson Crusoe on this.
06-23-2007, 05:08 AM
#169
Three Wheelin'
Quote: "The Cam trigger is far better and will not have any temperature issues"
This is NOT correct.
Best place for trigger was, is and always will be crankshaft. Do you have any idea how many degrees timing belt/chain can play on various rpm?
And when you find that out, think if that inaccuracy in spark advance can cause problems on turbocharged car.
Always use crank trigger and when in need for full sequential, use cam sync. On certain good EMS'es you can use "cam sync" from crank also (installing separate pin) and have sync signal without sloppyness.
This is NOT correct.
Best place for trigger was, is and always will be crankshaft. Do you have any idea how many degrees timing belt/chain can play on various rpm?
And when you find that out, think if that inaccuracy in spark advance can cause problems on turbocharged car.
Always use crank trigger and when in need for full sequential, use cam sync. On certain good EMS'es you can use "cam sync" from crank also (installing separate pin) and have sync signal without sloppyness.
06-23-2007, 05:14 AM
#170
Three Wheelin'
Launch control is purely rpm controll at start line: you have a switch installed (on the clutch pedal, steering wheel etc) and pushing it sets the rpm to predefined level and lets you hold the throttle fully open. Then just release the switch and go. Also you can configure the antilag on launch that retards timing and richens the mixture to get energy to turbine and have it spinning.
Knock detection is not going to save the engine if it isn't properly tuned. If it is, then there's no need for that other than safety (bad fuel, extremely high intake temp, failing fuel pump etc). Modern engine managements have MAT retard implemented also.
Knock detection is not going to save the engine if it isn't properly tuned. If it is, then there's no need for that other than safety (bad fuel, extremely high intake temp, failing fuel pump etc). Modern engine managements have MAT retard implemented also.
06-23-2007, 05:48 AM
#171
Formula One Spin Doctor
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A true "launch control " system allows you to set a predetermined launch RPM which is controlled by the ecu program , It will also allow you to program the amount of wheel slip percentage you would like for an optimum launch....typically a first gear launch conntrol .... Most stand alone ecu's who advertise a Launch control system is not true, as , it is nothing more than a stutter start being passed off as " launch control " this is very commom practice amongst the hey look at me new to the game ecu's , so buyer beware as most will not do as they claim , good marketing to catch those who just compare features and prices ....
Raceboy, for you to have a cam sensor , it kinda have to be on the cam, lol, the idea is to effectivly know where the cam sync is and to deal with any hysteresis, also on variable cam engines they are run full closed loop , so a sensor per cam is a must , with constant monitoring to know the position of each camshaft ...in relation to the crankshaft ..
Travis , yes you do need wheel speed sensors for a launch control system and for TC. While you can have TC by gear ratio with just the front wheels being monitored for speed , the more sophisticated systems have all 4 wheels monitored ...
Regarding Factory vs standalone ems , horse for course's, it all depends on what you are starting with for a factory system and where do you wanna go with your modifications... A GOOD STANDALONE DONE correctly
will outperform the factory ecu in most gategories , but not all for street use, move it to the track and it's a no brainer .......
Raceboy, for you to have a cam sensor , it kinda have to be on the cam, lol, the idea is to effectivly know where the cam sync is and to deal with any hysteresis, also on variable cam engines they are run full closed loop , so a sensor per cam is a must , with constant monitoring to know the position of each camshaft ...in relation to the crankshaft ..
Travis , yes you do need wheel speed sensors for a launch control system and for TC. While you can have TC by gear ratio with just the front wheels being monitored for speed , the more sophisticated systems have all 4 wheels monitored ...
Regarding Factory vs standalone ems , horse for course's, it all depends on what you are starting with for a factory system and where do you wanna go with your modifications... A GOOD STANDALONE DONE correctly
will outperform the factory ecu in most gategories , but not all for street use, move it to the track and it's a no brainer .......
06-23-2007, 11:03 AM
#172
Originally Posted by A.Wayne
A GOOD STANDALONE DONE correctly
will outperform the factory ecu in most gategories , but not all for street use, move it to the track and it's a no brainer .......
will outperform the factory ecu in most gategories , but not all for street use, move it to the track and it's a no brainer .......
06-23-2007, 11:35 AM
#173
Formula One Spin Doctor
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Originally Posted by facboy
I guess it's the 'done correctly' part that's the real issue...
Well it would be the same for the factory ecu upgrade , piggy back etc and based on the squiggly line dyno sheets some have posted here they have there issues too ....
06-23-2007, 02:43 PM
#174
I think the Cam trigger option is for those who wish for an easier install. As for belt causing some error, sure, but just how many tuned 944 Turbo's are tuned that close to knock? I have seen first had, my own engine, run on an engine dyno and the timing reference at the crank was dead on with the cam sync only. There are many EFI systems out there that even with a Crank sensor have timing shifts. Use a reluctor sensor and you certainly will have some shift when fitted to the Crankshaft.
It was and is never meant that the Cam trigger sensor is better than at the crankshaft. Some just take everything to the tenth degree here. Put everything into perspective. You need to install a trigger and do not wish to fit a Crank wheel for ease of installation, then consider the cam wheel only. Tune the engine with this in mind. If the engine is tuned with this wheel, the offset if any will be relative. Tuned within a couple of degrees of knock properely, I wager you sir there will be no knock using a Cam wheel over a Crank wheel. My orginal opinion was that the stock crank sensors are so problematic with temperature, the Cam sensor is an alternative. One that works really well in practice. Get off your theory couch and try something different sometimes. You may be pleasantly surprised.
It was and is never meant that the Cam trigger sensor is better than at the crankshaft. Some just take everything to the tenth degree here. Put everything into perspective. You need to install a trigger and do not wish to fit a Crank wheel for ease of installation, then consider the cam wheel only. Tune the engine with this in mind. If the engine is tuned with this wheel, the offset if any will be relative. Tuned within a couple of degrees of knock properely, I wager you sir there will be no knock using a Cam wheel over a Crank wheel. My orginal opinion was that the stock crank sensors are so problematic with temperature, the Cam sensor is an alternative. One that works really well in practice. Get off your theory couch and try something different sometimes. You may be pleasantly surprised.
06-23-2007, 06:21 PM
#175
Three Wheelin'
I have used them all and I'm speaking from experience, not just plain theory. How many cars have you equipped with standalone? I have 25+ and 4 or 5 of them needed to be converted from CIS or carbs to EFI first. So I've got some first hand experience.
On 951, best thing is to use stock sensors as it provides extremely good trigger resolution (remember, it has 130 teeth) though requires a capable ecu to take advantage of it (i.e. fast CPU).
You should update your information on sensor characteristics also. VR sensors are more resistant to temperature changes than HALL sensors, though they are very sensitive to noise on lower rpms (like cranking).
I'm talking all this only because there is no point in changing to something worse if there is a good trigger system already present. If we would talk about converting from carbs or CIS (= no trigger present at all) then it comes down to goals.
On normally aspirated engines couple of degrees here or there doesn't matter so much (at least when not in 100+ hp/liter area), but on high-boost applications I wouldn't make any compromises that influence timing accuracy, too much to win and sadly, loose also.
On 951, best thing is to use stock sensors as it provides extremely good trigger resolution (remember, it has 130 teeth) though requires a capable ecu to take advantage of it (i.e. fast CPU).
You should update your information on sensor characteristics also. VR sensors are more resistant to temperature changes than HALL sensors, though they are very sensitive to noise on lower rpms (like cranking).
I'm talking all this only because there is no point in changing to something worse if there is a good trigger system already present. If we would talk about converting from carbs or CIS (= no trigger present at all) then it comes down to goals.
On normally aspirated engines couple of degrees here or there doesn't matter so much (at least when not in 100+ hp/liter area), but on high-boost applications I wouldn't make any compromises that influence timing accuracy, too much to win and sadly, loose also.
06-23-2007, 09:21 PM
#176
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i herd that the magnetic pickups suffer from inacuracy as the trigger edge is less defined i think it is infact trouble with the cheaper ecus they have trouble seeing it .You here less conplaints from those with expensive ecus as i suggest Raceboy uses. also many cheper ecus cant count to 132
as for the wolf i think when i considered it it was lacking antlag was short of spare inputs and out puts and had poor trigger compadibilty may be datta loging as well
as for the wolf i think when i considered it it was lacking antlag was short of spare inputs and out puts and had poor trigger compadibilty may be datta loging as well
06-24-2007, 02:18 AM
#177
The stock VR sensor is prone to fail. It has happened to me on 2 occasions.
As for the number of ECU's I have used. Not 25. It did not take 25 to understand what I am saying either. Not trying to argue with you here either. Just that some ECU's even with Crank Triggers do not give good accuracy. I can think of several I have had that were like this.
All VR sensors retard themselves at RPM. It is a function of their design. As for using the stock triggers. I have used them with an aftermarket ECU. The problem is the sensor failure rate. Even the stock ECU divides the tooth count down to usable numbers.
AS for using the Cam wheel Trigger, I have used this on a 944 and I know of others who have also. It is very accurate and works well. The design was thought out with testing done. An engine was put on an engine dyno and run up to 7000 RPM and the Crank and Cam wheels were photographed under a strobe light. The 2 reference points were matched at every 500 RPM to see how much deviation was present. There was almost none. The new Cam trigger wheel was then decided to be 24-1 and the teeth were designed a certain width to always be in sync with any deviation that may happen.
The ECU I used used this 24-1 wheel and the reference mark on the Crank Pulley was checked against the Ignition map. It was dead on at each RPM checked and the mark was rock solid.
Again, the 24-1 Cam wheel was produced not to take the place of any Crank trigger wheel. It was to add to the many options this particular ECU application can use. For those who do not wish to use the stock sensors, and wish to run sequenially, this is another alternative instead of fitting a new Crank and Cam sensor. Well thought out and proven to boot.
As for the number of ECU's I have used. Not 25. It did not take 25 to understand what I am saying either. Not trying to argue with you here either. Just that some ECU's even with Crank Triggers do not give good accuracy. I can think of several I have had that were like this.
All VR sensors retard themselves at RPM. It is a function of their design. As for using the stock triggers. I have used them with an aftermarket ECU. The problem is the sensor failure rate. Even the stock ECU divides the tooth count down to usable numbers.
AS for using the Cam wheel Trigger, I have used this on a 944 and I know of others who have also. It is very accurate and works well. The design was thought out with testing done. An engine was put on an engine dyno and run up to 7000 RPM and the Crank and Cam wheels were photographed under a strobe light. The 2 reference points were matched at every 500 RPM to see how much deviation was present. There was almost none. The new Cam trigger wheel was then decided to be 24-1 and the teeth were designed a certain width to always be in sync with any deviation that may happen.
The ECU I used used this 24-1 wheel and the reference mark on the Crank Pulley was checked against the Ignition map. It was dead on at each RPM checked and the mark was rock solid.
Again, the 24-1 Cam wheel was produced not to take the place of any Crank trigger wheel. It was to add to the many options this particular ECU application can use. For those who do not wish to use the stock sensors, and wish to run sequenially, this is another alternative instead of fitting a new Crank and Cam sensor. Well thought out and proven to boot.
06-24-2007, 04:15 AM
#178
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by m42racer
The stock VR sensor is prone to fail. It has happened to me on 2 occasions.
As for the number of ECU's I have used. Not 25. It did not take 25 to understand what I am saying either. Not trying to argue with you here either. Just that some ECU's even with Crank Triggers do not give good accuracy. I can think of several I have had that were like this.
All VR sensors retard themselves at RPM. It is a function of their design. As for using the stock triggers. I have used them with an aftermarket ECU. The problem is the sensor failure rate. Even the stock ECU divides the tooth count down to usable numbers.
AS for using the Cam wheel Trigger, I have used this on a 944 and I know of others who have also. It is very accurate and works well. The design was thought out with testing done. An engine was put on an engine dyno and run up to 7000 RPM and the Crank and Cam wheels were photographed under a strobe light. The 2 reference points were matched at every 500 RPM to see how much deviation was present. There was almost none. The new Cam trigger wheel was then decided to be 24-1 and the teeth were designed a certain width to always be in sync with any deviation that may happen.
The ECU I used used this 24-1 wheel and the reference mark on the Crank Pulley was checked against the Ignition map. It was dead on at each RPM checked and the mark was rock solid.
Again, the 24-1 Cam wheel was produced not to take the place of any Crank trigger wheel. It was to add to the many options this particular ECU application can use. For those who do not wish to use the stock sensors, and wish to run sequentially, this is another alternative instead of fitting a new Crank and Cam sensor. Well thought out and proven to boot.
As for the number of ECU's I have used. Not 25. It did not take 25 to understand what I am saying either. Not trying to argue with you here either. Just that some ECU's even with Crank Triggers do not give good accuracy. I can think of several I have had that were like this.
All VR sensors retard themselves at RPM. It is a function of their design. As for using the stock triggers. I have used them with an aftermarket ECU. The problem is the sensor failure rate. Even the stock ECU divides the tooth count down to usable numbers.
AS for using the Cam wheel Trigger, I have used this on a 944 and I know of others who have also. It is very accurate and works well. The design was thought out with testing done. An engine was put on an engine dyno and run up to 7000 RPM and the Crank and Cam wheels were photographed under a strobe light. The 2 reference points were matched at every 500 RPM to see how much deviation was present. There was almost none. The new Cam trigger wheel was then decided to be 24-1 and the teeth were designed a certain width to always be in sync with any deviation that may happen.
The ECU I used used this 24-1 wheel and the reference mark on the Crank Pulley was checked against the Ignition map. It was dead on at each RPM checked and the mark was rock solid.
Again, the 24-1 Cam wheel was produced not to take the place of any Crank trigger wheel. It was to add to the many options this particular ECU application can use. For those who do not wish to use the stock sensors, and wish to run sequentially, this is another alternative instead of fitting a new Crank and Cam sensor. Well thought out and proven to boot.
06-24-2007, 04:52 AM
#179
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Originally Posted by gt37vgt
as for the wolf i think when i considered it it was lacking antlag was short of spare inputs and out puts and had poor trigger compadibilty may be datta loging as well
read this thread;
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...ghlight=wolf3d
and this (outdated, but still pretty accurate) review;
http://members.shaw.ca/sharkeysgarag...ems-part1.html
06-24-2007, 05:08 AM
#180
Formula One Spin Doctor
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Originally Posted by m42racer
The stock VR sensor is prone to fail. It has happened to me on 2 occasions.
As for the number of ECU's I have used. Not 25. It did not take 25 to understand what I am saying either. Not trying to argue with you here either. Just that some ECU's even with Crank Triggers do not give good accuracy. I can think of several I have had that were like this.
All VR sensors retard themselves at RPM. It is a function of their design. As for using the stock triggers. I have used them with an aftermarket ECU. The problem is the sensor failure rate. Even the stock ECU divides the tooth count down to usable numbers.
AS for using the Cam wheel Trigger, I have used this on a 944 and I know of others who have also. It is very accurate and works well. The design was thought out with testing done. An engine was put on an engine dyno and run up to 7000 RPM and the Crank and Cam wheels were photographed under a strobe light. The 2 reference points were matched at every 500 RPM to see how much deviation was present. There was almost none. The new Cam trigger wheel was then decided to be 24-1 and the teeth were designed a certain width to always be in sync with any deviation that may happen.
The ECU I used used this 24-1 wheel and the reference mark on the Crank Pulley was checked against the Ignition map. It was dead on at each RPM checked and the mark was rock solid.
Again, the 24-1 Cam wheel was produced not to take the place of any Crank trigger wheel. It was to add to the many options this particular ECU application can use. For those who do not wish to use the stock sensors, and wish to run sequenially, this is another alternative instead of fitting a new Crank and Cam sensor. Well thought out and proven to boot.
As for the number of ECU's I have used. Not 25. It did not take 25 to understand what I am saying either. Not trying to argue with you here either. Just that some ECU's even with Crank Triggers do not give good accuracy. I can think of several I have had that were like this.
All VR sensors retard themselves at RPM. It is a function of their design. As for using the stock triggers. I have used them with an aftermarket ECU. The problem is the sensor failure rate. Even the stock ECU divides the tooth count down to usable numbers.
AS for using the Cam wheel Trigger, I have used this on a 944 and I know of others who have also. It is very accurate and works well. The design was thought out with testing done. An engine was put on an engine dyno and run up to 7000 RPM and the Crank and Cam wheels were photographed under a strobe light. The 2 reference points were matched at every 500 RPM to see how much deviation was present. There was almost none. The new Cam trigger wheel was then decided to be 24-1 and the teeth were designed a certain width to always be in sync with any deviation that may happen.
The ECU I used used this 24-1 wheel and the reference mark on the Crank Pulley was checked against the Ignition map. It was dead on at each RPM checked and the mark was rock solid.
Again, the 24-1 Cam wheel was produced not to take the place of any Crank trigger wheel. It was to add to the many options this particular ECU application can use. For those who do not wish to use the stock sensors, and wish to run sequenially, this is another alternative instead of fitting a new Crank and Cam sensor. Well thought out and proven to boot.
M42,
The camshaft turns at half speed, why use a 24-1 for a trigger? why would factory sensors be unreliable? this is interesting could you Please tell me where i can obtain the sensors you are talking about, what current application are you working on?
Last edited by A.Wayne; 06-24-2007 at 09:16 AM.