nize

just for the record, i have compared the tec, motec, megasquirt, wolf, and a few other systems before deciding to get the wolf. i'm fortunate because there are many places nearby that support all of those systems, and i have local friends who are running different systems. i believe a good system requires very minimal support. do you base your car purchase decision on wether or not there is a local mechanic able to support your car? i'm sure some people do.

here are your answers;

1) i'm actually using most of the 'stupid' features that are listed. i also like having the ability to expand to individual ignition and independent fuel injection, neither of which i'm using yet, as the stock system is not set up that way, but both of which i plan to in the future.
2) i'm tuning timing via a timing map, which was performed on a dyno.
3) there is a local support base for tec, motec, megasquirt, wolf, and others.

if you'll notice, i don't knock (pun) any features on other systems. i might be talking up the wolf because i'm informing people of what made me decide to get the wolf over other systems.

again, why doesn't everyone else talk about the benefits of their own systems instead of knocking the features their systems might be lacking?

billindenver

Wow, Standalone is the new 3" versus 4" exhaust. Such emotion, such passion...such ranting and raving. It is often amazing to me how fired up and personal people will get while typing, when you know very well they would never stand up like that face to face. Guys, relax....it's only a way to control spark and fuel. Complex yes, but not rocket science...and it's not like 20 years ago Porsche was controlling it with smoke signals but now it's done with super computers. If you add the right amount of fuel and light it at the right time it doesn't matter if it is controlled by a supercomputer or a monkey pushing a button. There have been some improvements and some systems offer more than others but in the end how much improvement has there been? Well this dyno was done on 16psi of boost, stock WG, APE chips with huntley Maf and larger turbo. All else was stock. Following this dyno I pulled the boost controller and capped off the lines, turned up the fuel and ran 22 psi for 10 years. The stock system may be hugely outdated, but then it does work pretty damn well.... I haven't seen any 16psi dyno pulls on standalones that make this sheet look bad and several 18psi pulls that don't look this good....so if you are addressing a certain need then by all means go standalone, but don't feel like it must be done short of monster applications.



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File's 951 is stock, but he did stockpile a bunch of parts to build his version of the perfect 951. Mechanically he could not make it happen, so he sold all of the parts here on list. Look man, stop questioning the master. Simply sit back and absorb the wisdom, gathered over the ages in his family and handed down from father to son written on the back of a Toyota 'oh what a feeling' owners manual. No, he's never done it...but he HAS read more about it on the internet than you have....so yield to his expertise or he "shall taunt you a second time"

It is entertaining watching him get all emotional over a system he's never installed, never driven behind and couldn't tune to save his life. Entertainment, it is the purpose of the net...so enjoy!

Laust Pedersen

The purpose of the “brake-driving” procedure is to optimize the AFR and ignition under static conditions (not dynamic or transient conditions such as warm-up, acceleration, deceleration, etc. as these have separate fuel and timing modifiers).
It requires a few things to be in place first and also requires some planning. For example, the system has to be in closed loop mode (automatically adjusts fuel to the desired AFR) and make sure that the electronic acceleration pump is not active (for the selected data).

Once driving, select an rpm to be optimized, then when traffic allows, select an appropriate gear and adjust the speed to get to this rpm, then start data logging. Have one foot on the brake, then slowly push the accelerator to WOT while modulating the brake it to keep the rpm constant. Then stop data logging. The time span from cruising to WOT is about 5-10 seconds.
This can be done at a number of rpm’s during the drive.

Then bring the data file home for further analysis and verification and if satisfied make the necessary changes to the engine management system.
For my own calibration I have created an Excel spreadsheet with underlying Visual Basic that prunes the dataset for transient data, based on criteria I set up. This means that I can acquire data continuously from the start to the end of the trip and prune it afterwards, maybe getting 20% relevant data.

Once the AFR is optimized, then do the ignition with the same driving procedure after setting the ignition more aggressively (data logging not necessary), but bring a friend to monitor which cell the system is in at any time. When going through the load ranges at different rpm’s listen carefully for pinging and let the friend write down the specific cell that needs retardation (estimate the amount). This is an iterative process, which should end up with a 2 degree safety margin for audible pinging.

A word of caution:
Fuel and ignition optimization can only be done on an engine in near perfect condition. Specifically, there can be no misfires, otherwise you’ll end up in an infinite loop of confusion.
Also, never fully trust the sensors and apply some common sense, such as verifying that the engine delivers the approximate expected power with no dead spot or holes in the 2D power grit.

Laust

PS I don’t think a dyno can add much to this procedure, except provide an alternative AFR sensor for verification. The main difference between a dyno and driving is airflow around the engine with different pressure and temperature distribution than on the dyno.

PPS 333pg333, I have used this method to tune to +7000 rpm (with nitrous). Damn noisy and had to guess on a conservative ignition setting.

nize

billindenver; you truly get it.

Chris White

Did he stay at a Holiday Inn last night?

nize

hey laust, i'm interested in the pruning excel spreadsheet, that's a great idea.

nize

i do understand that, but i don't see any other systems using the j&s. actually, there is a local guy driving a turbo honda with a tec3 and j&s. he's smart.

the designer of the wolf plug-and-play system for the 951 was smart enough to know that in order to provide the best knock protection, the j&s should be used to replace the klr which essentially performs the same function, while the wolf replaces the dme.

Chris White

To be honest the Wolf system was not around when I ‘shopped’ the market and selected the Electromotive EMS. So in all truth I cannot state that the Tec3/GT is more accurate than the Wolf – I don’t know enough about the Wolf.
What I do know is that the Electromotive system uses a complex computer model of the engine’s speed to calculate the spark and fuel timing and requirements. The 60-2 tooth system was design and patented by Electromotive and was adopted by many OEM (Including Porsche). The system does not just identify TDC each revolution - it calculates the engine speed and the change in speed in a ‘virtual engine model’ based on input from each tooth. Not many systems do this. A lot just measure the time for 1 full revolution and calculate the parameters from that. This can lead to a timing error on a fast accelerating engine – it also indicates to me how much the EMS company cares about accuracy.
I can’t tell how the Wolf system does its calculation from their website.
Reliable and dependable – well that comes from field testing and the background of the company. The Electromotive systems have been around since the 80’s on lots of ‘real’ race cars. The company is a solid outfit that stands behind their product. As I said before – I don’t know Wolf but I do know of other underfunded outfits that have introduced the latest and greatest just to disappear or run into serious issues with the system (bugs).
Again – I don’t know about Wolf and I have yet to see one out at the track on the east coast. If I had the time I might try one out – but that is a lot of time to invest (the other problem is that most of my cars are running the Tec3/GT so I can’t simply plug the Wolf in!)
Even if I found the Wolf to be a good unit I would recommend that the unit be installed with a new harness and sensors. Its not that big a deal to fab a harness – and you can use all those other features!
Can I take a second to sum this up? I have not ‘knocked’ the Wolf system, I only wanted to make the point that you should not buy ANY system solely based on a single feature like knock control. You want to get the most accurate and reliable EMS you can afford. Do you own research and make your own choice. Don’t be fooled by a super slick interface - sure it’s great eye candy, but that won’t manage the engine any better. Dig a little deeper – find out how it works.
BTW – somebody posted about the Tec3 manual not being the easiest thing to understand – and they are right . It was not written for the consumer, it was written for the dealer or tuning professional. When you buy a tec3 system you should expect the dealer to work with you and educate you on the system, how it works and how to tune it if you want to do your own tuning. If you just shop for the absolute cheapest price than you might just get what you paid for!

Chris White

See - I can agree with you on this - the safeguard system does look like a good knock control set up!

Chris White

That is how the Tec3 self tune mode works. You can set the ‘pruning ‘ level also. You can also datalog the self tune and look at its recommendations before adding them to the file. I do this manually since I have seen enough of these to know what VE adjustments will make the needed corrections.
BTW – a set of Big Red will hold a 400 rwhp engine at a steady RPM for quite a while (at least 15 seconds). I use this for testing all the time – but I do live out in the country where I can do this on a ling straight safely. Once brake tuned I usually have very little – if any- adjustments on the dyno.
I do prefer the dyno for ignition tuning – especially a current eddy dyno.

Chris White

Hey - I'm on a streak....
Did I ever mention that both Ford and GM are Electromotive licensees for their distributorless ignition systems…?
Porsche uses some of the techno logy starting in 1989 but due to an odd set up with Ford of Europe and Bosch they did not become an official licensee.
So – anybody with a post 1989 Porsche is running on a ignition system with some Electromotive content.

nize

now that's some cool info. i'll post more when i have time later.

nize

okay, the wolf calculates the time it takes between pulses and with the amount in your velocity tracking rate, the acceleration rate. with this it then determines when the coil charge time should start and end, this is in relation to coil discharge and charge time, since chris asked how the wolf handles spark dwell time.

Laust Pedersen

Which may not be a coincidence since I some 12 years ago talked with Electromotive, mentioned that such a feature would be very convenient and gave them a copy of my spreadsheet.
Ironically I have not used their feature, but still use my spreadsheet.

While on the subject, I also at the time had great difficulty getting adequate idle vacuum (hot cams and sub-optimal pressure measurements), had non-linear pressure – load relationship throughout rpm range and discovered that the throttle position – load had an opposite relationship. So I made a little summing mixer in hardware, which resulted in an almost linear response. This could obviously be controlled better in software, so I wrote an engineering report on the subject with suggestions for its implementation and that apparently resulted in their “blend function”. Even more ironically, I could not make that work properly in my TEC-3 unit.

For those, who can’t get enough of EMS discussions, here is a relevant forum: http://www.efi101.com/forum/

Laust

Raceboy

Yes, +1, I've been searching for info there occasionally and it has tons of knowledge (some junk also ).