INA Lifters?
06-10-2005, 01:11 PM
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Toolmaster: Trust me, you don't want INA lifters. Lindsey Racing went thru 3 "brand new" sets on my car when we were building my 3.0L 8V.
Below is just one of the threads by Lindsey Racing about their experiences with these lifters, and my car too. If you want more info, go to www.turbo944.com. You'll have to scroll around some threads, but there are more on them. Hope this helps.
Posted By: TCarrera <Send E-Mail>
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2005, at 11:45 a.m.
In Response To: Thank You (+) (Bujhm)
To try and answer your question about solid lifters, we are coming out with a line of solid lifter and cam profiles. The lifters are in production right now, there are several steps that they go through in being made, first the machining, then they are heat treated, then they are precision ground to dimension, then lapped, then a final hard coating to the wear surfaces. They should be finished later in February. As I mentioned in my earlier post, they are half the weight of stock lifters, this will make for significantly less stress on the camshaft.
Until now, the only real reason to consider solid lifters was to run higher RPM’s and more aggressive cam profiles. That has changed in the past few months. From what we are being told, the original German lifters that Porsche has been selling since these cars were produced are no longer available. Porsche does sell a lifter, but it is no longer the quality it used to be. What we are being told and we have seen this for ourselves is the current factory lifter is the aftermarket one made by INA. The markings on the lifter shows this to be true. Open a box from Porsche, open an aftermarket INA box, it is the same part.
These aftermarket lifters have not had a good history and with an aggressive cam profile and stiffer valve springs, they cannot handle the stresses being put on them.
We personally saw failure on three sets of brand new lifters, we have customers calling in with lifters being cam surface pounded concave and actually holes worn through the cam surface. This is a big problem and we are on the forefront of doing something about it.
Solid lifters are not a new concept with these engines, but until now has required new longer valves, special retainers and shims. We are working with a company experienced in these solid lifter set ups and have redesigned the part to work with a stock valve length. We are using a custom made lash cap to adjust the valve lash. We are machining 8 holes along the cam housing so the lash can be periodically checked. Since there are no rocker arms and other items to wear or loosen up, adjustment of the lash will be very seldom.
It will be somewhat complicated when it is necessary, but not that bad. You would simply check the lash with a feeler gauge and if necessary, remove the cam housing and replace the lash cap with another that will return the lash to the proper dimension.
In the 951, the base circle is the cam is machined to increase lift. The nose of the cam cannot be raised due to clearance inside the housing. We are making lash caps to work with specific cam profiles to maintain the correct lash.
We are building three solid cam set-ups right now, one going into our own GT3 racecar. The other is going into a 3.0 liter 8 valve head motor, the other is going into a 2.5 liter street/autocross car we are rebuilding the engine right now. It will have a slightly different cam due their need for lower rpm power. The other two engines will be set up with a much more aggressive lift and duration.
Mike Lindsey
Lindsey Racing
Below is just one of the threads by Lindsey Racing about their experiences with these lifters, and my car too. If you want more info, go to www.turbo944.com. You'll have to scroll around some threads, but there are more on them. Hope this helps.
Posted By: TCarrera <Send E-Mail>
Date: Sunday, 6 February 2005, at 11:45 a.m.
In Response To: Thank You (+) (Bujhm)
To try and answer your question about solid lifters, we are coming out with a line of solid lifter and cam profiles. The lifters are in production right now, there are several steps that they go through in being made, first the machining, then they are heat treated, then they are precision ground to dimension, then lapped, then a final hard coating to the wear surfaces. They should be finished later in February. As I mentioned in my earlier post, they are half the weight of stock lifters, this will make for significantly less stress on the camshaft.
Until now, the only real reason to consider solid lifters was to run higher RPM’s and more aggressive cam profiles. That has changed in the past few months. From what we are being told, the original German lifters that Porsche has been selling since these cars were produced are no longer available. Porsche does sell a lifter, but it is no longer the quality it used to be. What we are being told and we have seen this for ourselves is the current factory lifter is the aftermarket one made by INA. The markings on the lifter shows this to be true. Open a box from Porsche, open an aftermarket INA box, it is the same part.
These aftermarket lifters have not had a good history and with an aggressive cam profile and stiffer valve springs, they cannot handle the stresses being put on them.
We personally saw failure on three sets of brand new lifters, we have customers calling in with lifters being cam surface pounded concave and actually holes worn through the cam surface. This is a big problem and we are on the forefront of doing something about it.
Solid lifters are not a new concept with these engines, but until now has required new longer valves, special retainers and shims. We are working with a company experienced in these solid lifter set ups and have redesigned the part to work with a stock valve length. We are using a custom made lash cap to adjust the valve lash. We are machining 8 holes along the cam housing so the lash can be periodically checked. Since there are no rocker arms and other items to wear or loosen up, adjustment of the lash will be very seldom.
It will be somewhat complicated when it is necessary, but not that bad. You would simply check the lash with a feeler gauge and if necessary, remove the cam housing and replace the lash cap with another that will return the lash to the proper dimension.
In the 951, the base circle is the cam is machined to increase lift. The nose of the cam cannot be raised due to clearance inside the housing. We are making lash caps to work with specific cam profiles to maintain the correct lash.
We are building three solid cam set-ups right now, one going into our own GT3 racecar. The other is going into a 3.0 liter 8 valve head motor, the other is going into a 2.5 liter street/autocross car we are rebuilding the engine right now. It will have a slightly different cam due their need for lower rpm power. The other two engines will be set up with a much more aggressive lift and duration.
Mike Lindsey
Lindsey Racing
06-10-2005, 01:12 PM
#4
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You can contact INA and get a distributor listing. www.engine-systems.ina.com for their various lifters.
http://www.ina.de/inaupdate/index.asp?l=en
From the Lindsey post above it sounds like a product to avoid though.
http://www.ina.de/inaupdate/index.asp?l=en
From the Lindsey post above it sounds like a product to avoid though.
06-10-2005, 06:53 PM
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TRP951: It depends on the situation, but they usually tick. Some cars just tick when the engine starts up; but as the lifters pump-up with oil the ticking does away. In this situation, it could be just sticky lifters, or, it could be the beginning of them going bad. Now, if the lifters are ticking on start up, and it doesn't go away, well, you could be assured they are bad. How do you know for sure? You have to pull them all out and test each one of them. Do a search on here, there's alot of information on this topic already. Hope that helps.
Now, back to our regular program, Toolmaster?
Now, back to our regular program, Toolmaster?
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06-10-2005, 09:35 PM
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Well, I just replaced 3 of my S2 lifters with INA ones - and they seem to work ok. I was thinking if they were aftermarket ones to just replace all of them - but if they're OEM now - I'll try the Rislone trick... I can't bring myself to spend 16x40ish bucks.... Yet.
06-10-2005, 11:14 PM
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NZ: And you speak from your personal "vast expertise" with stock lifters and solid set-ups? Where is your "empirical data" to support anything you're saying here, which of course, adds no value to this thread which was for Toolmaster.
Give me a break. Back to the thread...
Give me a break. Back to the thread...
06-10-2005, 11:24 PM
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To put it all in perspective, Lindsey was talking about lifter problems with the more aggressive cam profiles and beefier spring rates. For a near stock set-up I doubt if INA lifters would be a problem for the 'average' user. Maybe they aren't as good as the OEM units made during original production but then we don't really have a choice do we? Solid lifters would be overkill for my car.
06-10-2005, 11:47 PM
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KuHL 951: Actually, from my personal experiences with them, you're wrong, sorry. I had 3 brand new sets of lifters go into my car with the stock cam/stock valve spring too. We had a failure rate of 90%!
I am not saying to convert to solid by any means. I am trying to share my "INA" experience with Toolmaster who started the thread. And my new sets of of lifters were from 1 yr. ago to 6 months ago, and the quality didn't change. Trust me, I had no desire to convert to solid lifters; there was no reason to as stated in the Lindsey post above. People who are installing INA better watch them very carefully. Let's put it this way: We tested "every" single one prior to going in the car. And as I said, 90% were bad - soft and pushed in with your fingers, brand new! On the third set, we "thought" we had all hard ones, so, we installed them. Well, after installing them and driving the car for 1 hr, they starting ticking. So given the track record with the two other sets, we took them out and sure enough, the majority of them went soft!
Anyway, that is my two cents with INA
I am not saying to convert to solid by any means. I am trying to share my "INA" experience with Toolmaster who started the thread. And my new sets of of lifters were from 1 yr. ago to 6 months ago, and the quality didn't change. Trust me, I had no desire to convert to solid lifters; there was no reason to as stated in the Lindsey post above. People who are installing INA better watch them very carefully. Let's put it this way: We tested "every" single one prior to going in the car. And as I said, 90% were bad - soft and pushed in with your fingers, brand new! On the third set, we "thought" we had all hard ones, so, we installed them. Well, after installing them and driving the car for 1 hr, they starting ticking. So given the track record with the two other sets, we took them out and sure enough, the majority of them went soft!
Anyway, that is my two cents with INA
06-10-2005, 11:47 PM
#14
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The lifter problems experienced were not just with non-stock cams. During the research and development done on the lifter failure on Robs awesom car, LR discovered that when running boost pressures over 16 psi. with stock springs, lifters, and cam the lifters will start floating and hammer both the lifters and cam damaging both over a fairly short time depending on how many miles are on the springs. As more people run over 16 psi with the tuning capabilities available today, I think you will hear of a lot more lifter failure not long after replacement.
I had 3 lifters go bad on my 89 with 180K on it. The previous owner had replaced one bad lifter when re-building the motor 10K ago. Of the 3 lifters that went soft, one was the INA replacement the previous owner had put in. LR did not have their solid lifters in production yet, so I replaced the 3 bad lifters with 3 factory originals from another motor.
The sypmtoms of the 3 lifters going south was not only the ticking sound, but I had a hesitation in acceleration around 5000 rpm.
Since I run 18 psi I am expecting to hear that ticking any day now. Soon as it happens, I'm going solid. I already have my solid cam serial number plate color picked out.
I had 3 lifters go bad on my 89 with 180K on it. The previous owner had replaced one bad lifter when re-building the motor 10K ago. Of the 3 lifters that went soft, one was the INA replacement the previous owner had put in. LR did not have their solid lifters in production yet, so I replaced the 3 bad lifters with 3 factory originals from another motor.
The sypmtoms of the 3 lifters going south was not only the ticking sound, but I had a hesitation in acceleration around 5000 rpm.
Since I run 18 psi I am expecting to hear that ticking any day now. Soon as it happens, I'm going solid. I already have my solid cam serial number plate color picked out.
