Robby

....says a guy w/a 996TT... Always a wise-*** in EVERY group...

1988952

Doug H

I have a lot of seattime in the 964s and the 3.6 996s and unless your Ruf is turbocharged my S4 will pull easily from both cars up to 160mph.Granted it is heavily modified with Rs4 parts but the key is proper Ecu tuning which the majority of US Audi tuners lack. So most modded S4s have a ton of expensive parts on them but a weaksauce Ecu and thats why they are not performing the way they should unless you use racegas. My 951s has only chip/catbypass and is currently slower than the S4 ,but I agree with you in the twisties,it is simply to heavy and the best coilover is not gone save you.

TonyG

1988952

The S4 won't out run my 951. Neither will any factory production version a 911 in any flavor. Not even close. And this goes for both on and off the racetrack.

TonyG

1988952

Tony G,

I am not sure if you are kidding or not but you cannot tell me with astraight face that your car ( professional driven) will beat a properly set up Gt2/3 ,also professional driven.
BTW, I have never claimed that my S4 is faster than your car,that should be a no brainer, you have a huge advantage in the power/weight ratio.
If I still would live in LA I would have invited you to one of our trackdays in Willow Springs which the dealership I used to work at organized, lots of heavy duty hardware there and drivers like Cort Wagner.

schadenfreude

I wouldn't be so doubtful 1988952, there was a guy who raced a 951 in the Porsche Cup down here in Oz a few years back who was winning races ahead of pros in gt3s and rs/cs's...

Doug H

Hahaha, I did not mean to be a wise *** so to speak. I also need to be careful when talking about other brands because even though this is a Porsche board, people are sensitive about other brands. My S4 and TT 225 were chipped. They were fun cars but too heavy. More of a GT than a true sports car.

I saw the European S4 shoot out and only 2 of the cars were sub 12.6 in the 1/4 and both of those had something 425 hp at the wheels. The ones with close to stock hp at the wheels were 14s and 15s in the 1/4 mile. Let's see the numbers if you have a fast S4. That is my reason for posting up my numbers is to get comparisons, but I would like to see numbers as opposed to claims.

My 964 is heavily modified and not just bolt on. My goal with this car is forced induction performance without going forced induction. This car easily pulled away from a brand new M3 convertible in the 40 - 70 range and I easily took him off the line from 0 - 60. This car runs 4.6 to 4.7 0 - 60.

There is about $ 15k wrapped up in the engine and a Lenz system is going on in March or as soon as the Lenz system for the 964 is ready for release in the USA. The above is really baseline numbers and I am trying to either get feed back or find other 1/4 mile numbers to see where I currently stand before spending another $ 7k to $ 8k on the Lenz system. Unfortunately, there are not a lot of 1/4 mile baseline numbers in either the 964 or 996 forums.

My 996 has an air kit and Febspeed exhaust and also does in the 4.6 to 4.8 range 0 - 60. My 03 TT is bone stock and runs 4.0 to 4.2 on the G Tech. The 996 C2s are very strong out of the box and mine ran 4.9 to 5.0s on the G-tech before its mods.

Robby

Doug- Those sound like incredible cars- what's the Lenz system anyway? As for #'s, unfortunately, they aren't posted much on ANY of these boards- people just generally like to make blanket statements like "...my car's faster than your car..." & "...my car will eat ANY such & such car for lunch..." etc... #'s aren't perfect, b/c at dif altitudes, etc, #'s can be dif, but, they do give a slight baseline. But, as w/any brand I guess, you have people wanting to bring up the strong points ONLY- for the 951, people will say that it's not designed to be a dragster, if you bring up times that they feel aren't stellar #'s- they'll mention handling & brakes- then, bring up a car that can outhandle them & they'll move to the age of the 951 argument- mention the fact that hte distances aren't any better than many average cars of today & it's the same thing, OR, "well, 951's have better TRACK brakes"- which MAY be true in many instances, BUT, how many of the 951's on this list are ever REALLY tracked? I know there are a few, but, the majority will never even make it to the parking lot of a track, much less race it- that's not a knock at the car or any of the people here, but, merely a point. These are cool cars that can be made to be really cool, but, there are other's out there too that the same can be said about...

1988852- the S4 does seem to be better at USING it's power- I'm sure that PART of it is b/c of the AWD, but, not all- the stock S4 has almost IDENTICAL HP/TQ to a Turbo S & is slightly faster at the 1/4 DESPITE carrying an extra 550lbs or so... It runs 0-120 in almost identical times too, so THAT's why I say it's NOT just the launch- it accelerates from 100-120 or so in almost the exact same amount of time... As for chips- I've often wondered about that- they seem to tune them incredibly well for the stock system- you get >50HP & >100TQ w/simple chip upgrade- of course, many of the S4's w/more mods, like larger turbos, etc, don't seem to get much more at all- doesn't seem like the ECU tuning is optimium for anything else. The stock cars run ~14.0 & the chipped cars run b/t ~12.9 & 13.1 & much above that seems to cost a FORTUNE. Of course, there aren't many 951's that brake into the 12's from what I've seen- they DO have more traction probs off the line, but, they shouldn't be any worse off than any other RWD cars, as their weight dist is about as good as it gets for front engine.

also, many 951's MAY be faster through the twisties, but, they aren't as easy to drive fast- the S4 is definately a more stable car to drive hard on regular roads- many people forget that it's not always about which car has the highest limits, but, sometimes it's about which car can be driven more comfortably- I don't think there's much debate in THIS category- again, apples to oranges...

The RS6 is a good example of extreme HP limited by extreme weight- any car that's pushing 450HP & well over 400TQ that has trouble w/breaking the 13.0 barrier needs a DIET IMO. Kind of like the M5- that car was hailed to be one of the most incredible things on the planet YEARS before it was released- it's "400HP" made it fast, but, I for one was expecting competition for 993996TT's- didn't happen did it? W/4300lbs to carry, how could it? The RS6 is the same- of course, slightly faster in most tests- the best I've seen was a 12.8IIRC- maybe a 12.6- but that E55 is now the king of the heavyweights. Funny to say that about a Mercedes IMO, but, give credit where credit is due... I've just always thought of the 951 as being heavy, & at 3150lbs, it's not exactly light, but, compared to THESE cars it's a featherweight... I guess it's all relative...

Doug H

Lenz is basically a stand alone fuel management system. It is like having a custom programed chip, but has a heck of a lot more tuning points. I can also use a lap top in the car to make minor tweeks and etc. and it records all data constantly so that it can be downloaded and checked for optimal timing, A/F and etc. It includes a larger throttle body with a Venturi. The full kit has cams, custom exhaust and etc. I already have a custom exhaust, light weight pistons, valves, titnaium springs and guides, updated connecting rods and etc. I am hitting high number very quick be getting an early drop off and am hoping that the Lenz system will basically optimize my A?F and timing to achieve maximum performance at each RPM or stroke of the engine. I have over simplified it because I am not extremely technical, but I know I will be able to hook up a lap top and be a rcier extraordinaire like the Fast and Furious guys.

Here is the website.

http://www.lenzmotorentechnikusa.com/

I will be doing the full kit or the 340 hp version. My car should achieve more because of what has already been done to the motor. The 340 kit is basically what one should hope to achieve by optimzing a stock 3.6 motor. I have also driven the 3.2 with a Lenz and it was a rocket with huge amounts of torque. My 964 will actually be one of the first or the first in the USA market and Jerry Desmond will apparently assist in the installation to get it right since it will be one of their first.

porshhhh951

Doug I want your car's! OMG very very nice. I think if I could have any 911 it would be a 97(993) turbo s. Aside from that a nice used 996tt can be had for 70-80k. I think thats a serious bargin. I hope to have a serious porsche collection going by the time I am 30. I only have had three porsche's and all of them have been cheep to purchase. I only have about 18-20k in my current 951. Ofcourse most of that is paint, seat's,rim's ect.ect. Since that # includes the purchase price of the car I think that is seriously cheep. I like the 951's cause its the best bang for the buck. I turn 22 in june so I got a little while. I plan on staying single as long as I can so I can buy all of my toys. I am currently in the market for a nice 928 gt. I want three 911's a turbo slantnose, a 993tt, and a 996tt. Maybe some day I will have my nice Porsche collection. I could always go rob a bank hmmmm........lol. Anyways I just wanted to say from one car guy to another thats a very nice collection of porsche's you got there.

cheers

Doug H

John: I had my 944 and 928 through the college years and loved them. Just did not have enough money to keep them properly sorted. Worked my **** off in school and now I have 4 in my driveway. The Cayenne is for the wife. I living my Porsche dream after 15 years of salivating through ever issue of DuPonte registry and etc. I got lucky. Through hard work and the key is finding a good woman who does not interfer with what she has loveling called my Porsche obcession. BTW, I am in the process of building an original Ruf RCT Evo. That will be my last car for the time being or until I sell something.