Robby

I'm sorry, but I HAVE to say this- first, I'm NOT trying to say that ANY car is BETTER than another OR that a 951 is NOT a great car, BUT- a 951 does NOT get ANY faster at speed (after a standing start) than BEFORE- it just does not happen- for some reason,many on this list seem to think that since the 951 is not a dragster, that they have to let it prove it self somehow at higher speeds- IF the car does not beat another at the 1/4, then, it will not beat that car at higher speeds- this is almost definate- there ARE MINOR discrepancies b/t certain speeds & certain shift points, etc... The 951 does AMAZINGLY WELL from a standing start & anyone saying otherwise does not know how to launch one properly- for a car that has a 1:12.5 HP/weight ratio (Turbo S) a 14.2 1/4 mile is pretty damn good- esepcially for a turbo, which will cost a 1/10 of a second or so, but... take into consideration it's 0-60. the Turbo S ran a 5.5- that's consistent w/a 14.0 1/4- the M3 E36 ran a 5.5 & a 14.0 in '96 & up. 95 M3's were 5.7 or so & 14.2 - 14.5- the M3 actually gets along better at higher ranges, based on this, than the Turbo S- the M3 ran to 130 in 28.1 in an early C&D- the Turbo S ran 0-120 in 22.1 in C&D & THAT was w/the 3.89FD which shortened all gears & enhanced acceleration- the top speed was redlined at ~145.... The S4 in C&D (10/01) ran 0-60 in 5. 5 & a 14.2 @ 97 1/4 & 0-120 in 23.1- that 1/4 is a slow speed for an S4 & the 120 is, subsequently, slightly slow, BUT, a very good match for a Turbo S, much less a Turbo OR a 968CS (M030) which BOTH would take WELL over 30 secs to reach 130 & the Turbo S would even be hard pressed to break 130 in <30secs- should be close, but...

I'm not trying to rag anyone, but, DAMN- I'm just scratching my head to find out why everyone insists that these cars are super-cars at high speeds- if 0-120 isn't a high speed, then what is? 130? 140? where do we call it higher speeds? Most people seem to think that it starts around 70 & goes to ~120 or so, like a highway speed burst...WELL... IF the S4 & Turbo S BOTH run to 60 in 5.5, then, the rest of the way b/t 60 & 120 is STILL ~23 - 5.5, which is the EXACT SAME for BOTH cars.... The 951 certainly doesn't spool up as quickly as the S4 & is not nearly as quick around town, but, that's b/c you're not flooring it from light to light all day long- you get a good launch & the 951 does JUST fine for it's HP:weight ratio- There are PLENTY of people on this list claiming mid 13's w/JUST chips....of course, the S4 is a good half second ahead w/it's chips, but... Anyway, I'm not trying to rag anyone....just stating the facts- unless you've got a strange gearing situation or SOMETHING, then, the dif b/t cars at high speeds will be predictable by their difs at low speeds- this is why drag racers depend so much on their 60ft times- they KNOW that if they reduce their 60ft times by a 1/10 of a second, that it will get them so much faster through the traps.... also, w/street cars in the 4.0-8.0 0-60 range, the 1/4 mile is pretty much the exact same dif as 0-60. In other words- a 6.5 0-60 is ~15.0 1/4. A 5.5 0-60 is ~14.0 1/4. A 4.5 0-60 is ~13.0 1/4- much below this & the formula doesn't really hold true anymore, but...

At any rate, BOTH the 951 AND S4 can be EXCELLENT cars IMO....

lart951

With my first 951, I had nothing but good luck with the car, I ran the car hard all the time no blown heads or nothing like that, but my clutch would slip so bad even after being replaced with a cup kit, so I sold the car, with my current car the clutch engages properly without slippage but my motor has gave me nothing more than nightmares. I saw a video sometime ago on Rennlist of a drag race between a Red 951 and a Ford Fairlane 500 (I think, but I could be wrong)on the drag strip, the Ford took off much faster but acceleration remained even until the end, the 951 lost the race but you could see the 944t catching up with the Ford. If that would have been a rolling start I KNOW as anybody that have seen the video the outcome would have been different. I need some help on this matter from older rennlist members maybe they can point out to that specific race. I know from reading this forum and my personal experience that launching a 944t is not a easy task and you could end up with a broken axle, cv joint or a burned clutch but I am a
Newbie let the experts correct me on this matter.

Thanks
Luis

Robby

Sure, there will be an immediate difference- getting through 1st is the hardest part & launching a 951 isn't exactly easy, BUT, it CAN be done effectively & is not INCREDIBLY hard- I guess it varies from driver to driver- I used to drive a 118HP/103TQ 1st gen Integra, so, I was already used to a car w/out low end- the Integra had NOTHING below 4K- sound familiar? The only benefit IT had was shorter gearing- 1st redlined (@ 7K) ~33mph, whereas the 951 is 40mph. That's a tall gear for a drag car considering it's low end TQ- okay, let me try to explain, but, REMEMBER, I am NOT a physics master NOR do I claim to know everything about this, so, some of my take on this may be slightly incorrect, BUT, it's based on my fairly limited experience AND the decent amount of car mag reading, etc, I've done...

When you launch a car, you want to hit PEAK TQ- right NOW- I mean, IMMEDIATELY. A stcik shift car, however, deos not idle at peak TQ (well, I don't know of any- the S4 is the closest I'm AWARE of: ~1750rpms)- let's consider the 951 S- usually idles ~1k- peak TQ is 4K (normal 951 is 3500 & 5800 for HP). NOW, the idea is to get to 4K IMMEDIATELY! What you want to do is eliminate ANY waiting to get to this point- when get to this point, the engine is in it's zone from ~4k to ~6k- this is gear dependent b/c of the actual point you want to grab the NEXT gear, but, it's ~4k - 6k for most in 951s- the perfect shift involves a combination/comprimise b/t being in the gear you're already in vs the point at which you will enter the NEXT gear when you shift & your ability to spend the most time in each gear's perfect zone- you really want to be in the lowest gear possible, as it transfers more TQ- that's all a gear is, a MULTIPLIER...

EX: 951 has 3.38FD- 1st gear is 3.50- so 1st gear's overall ratio (OA) is 11.83, so: 11.83 X 258 = 3052 ft/lbs TQ @ 4K- there are other variables, like tire RD, etc- 2nd gear multiplies LESS TQ- it's 2.06, so the OR is 6.96 ft/lbs TQ @ 4K, & so forth... cars w/shorter gears (higher numerically) will be even stronger b/c of this- 993TT redlines 1st ~33mph- the only way it gets away w/this w/400HP/TQ is b/c it's AWD, otherwise, it would need slicks- S4 has similar short gearing- BOTH 6-speeds, so, they can have such short gears & STILL have nice cruising gears- best of both worlds- too bad Porsche did the 968's the way they did....

So, you want to get to peak TQ as soon as possible- ANY time spent ANYWHERE other than in that zone is time wasted- unfortunately, the 951 S, being a turbo, takes a little time to get to 4k- you idle ~1k, so you've got ~3K to get through- let's say you roll off the start, OR, get going to 5mph & THEN floor it- the clutch will be FULLY engaged, as you are rolling, etc & the engine will BOG like hell- the way to do it is to rev the car (at a dead stop) to ~3K & let the clutch out fast, but don't just POP it- carefully modulate the clutch to TRY to control wheelspin a little & you're GONE- the wheels are going to spin- w/out LSD, this is much more problematic, as the ONE wheel will spin & will do so more uncontrollably- it amazes me, sometimes, that non-LSD cars can even come close to staying w/LSD cars in 1/4 mile tests, etc, w/pro drivers, BUT, they do- they DO lose some time. Anyway, w/LSD, the tires will spin, but, you should be glued to your seat- if the wheels are spinning SO HARD that the car isn't even moving, you've either got a SERIOUS amount of HP/TQ, crappy tires, or you're revving the hell out of the car & just popping the clutch- I played w/mine one night in a parking lot- was going slightly uphill & revved to ~4k & basically popped it- not completely, but pretty much- the wheels spun pretty hard- enough to leave two ~90ft marks (yes, I measured- across ~11 full parking spaces) & there was a little white smoke, BUT, I came out of the hole like a rocket- I've launched it more effectively, but, it STILL came out faster than letting the clutch out gently & then flooring it. You see, when the tires are spinning a little, the car is STILL moving- the engine is also moving enough to be close to it's TQ band & by the time the clutch is fully engaged, you should be moving enough to pretty much be at peak TQ- this means, you only have another second to grab 2nd gear. IF you just get off the clutch as quickly as possible, w/out spinning tires, etc, you will bog the engine- your idle is ~1K- 1K in 1st is moving ~6.3mph, so, to be moving in 1st w/the clutch completely engaged (w/OUT the engine bucking, etc) you will have to be moving at least 6mph- THEN, you will have to work your way through 3K more rpms to get to peak TQ- this will take a few seconds for the turbo to spool up, etc- had you launched it, you wouldn't have to wait- the only waiting there is to get fulll traction This, BTW, is also why a car will run from 0-60 faster than it will run from 5-60. Anyone here ever seen magazine tests where they show all the various speed accel times? How about the ones that include the 5-60 test? Well, check it out- the 0-60 time will be faster... I've NEVER seen it any other way & this is specifically the reason- @ 5mph, the car is rolling & flooring it results in slow accel until the peak TQ, BUT, launching the car will have you at that point already & shoot the car out of the hole...

Another good example- SCC did a GREAT test several years ago- they tested 6 cars- 2 FWD, 2 RWD, & 2 AWD. They tested them in several ways in bothj wet & dry conditions- they did track testing, slalom, LA, 0-60 & 1/4 mile, etc.... They wanted to know just how much it really mattered where the drive wheels were. Some of the results were interesting- for one, FWD didn't help traction at all, but, we on the RL probably all EXPECTED that- FWD is marketing hype- my 951S can get going (straight anyway) in ice/snow that my Integra could- the LSD is probably the biggest reason. Usually, FWD will help on REALLY slick surfaces, b/c the car is being accelerated SO SLOWLY, that the weight of the car will not redistribute itself any, so the weight will basically stay over the drive wheels- the BEST will ALWAYS be 911's, since even the slightest amount of re-distribution will go TO the drive wheels AWD is even better, of course... Anyway, when it came to the AWD cars, they had an Eagle Talon AWD Turbo modded to ~400HP & an Audi A4 1.8L turbo w/chips (& I THINK a larger turbo w/ ~250HP, but would have to check on that). Anyway, BOTH of these cars were faster from 0-60 (& by extension the 1/4 mile, of course) the WET surface. Now, keep in mind, this is not to say "greasy" wet, or "icy" wet, etc, BUT, plain wet- the dif was minimal- ~1/10 sec, but, the fact that the cars were even AS FAST begs hte question "WHY?" Well, they explain it by saying, basically exactly what I have- the AWD is so good at transfering HP/TQ, that it will not allow all 4 tires to spin- they will for a second, but,the Audi even has some sort of traction control, so that IF the wheels DO spin, the brake slows down the wheel that is spinning, etc- I always consider traction controls as being "negative wheel spinning control" while LSD's are "positive wheel spinning control" b/c the traction control SLOWs the fastest wheel, whereas the LSD shifts power FROM the fastest TO the slowest to try to help it "catch up" IF that makes sense. Anyway, the AWD's were catching their wheelspin SO quickly, that the engine was bogging- on the wet surface, the wheels were able to spin enough to get closer to the TQ peak so that acceleration was maximized- as I said, it was a minimal dif, BUT, it's STILL interesting IMO- the engine bogged just enough in the dry to slow it down....

This, in a nutshell, is the reason why a car NEEDS to have some wheelspin to maximize it's speed- last example- the legendary 959- I have a C&D test of it several years later where they were getting mid 12's @ 1/4 which was a good half sec slower than expected- they talked w/a guy who had helped engineer the car. 959's have 6-speeds- 1-5 & "G" which stands for "gerrande" or something(?)- it is for the slipperiest of surfaces- they normally start in 1st, which, IIRC, is where 2nd normally is- G is where 1st would be, but is VERY short- I'm not sure it's any shorter than 993/996 TT's, but... It ALSO has 4 diff settings- not sure which order, but there was basically open w/LSD for rears for dry weather- slightly more locked for wet, even more locked for snow & ice, & basically fully locked for mud. The guy said to put it in fully locked, start in "G," rev the engine to 7K, pop the clutch & get ready to shift- they tried this- it wasn't THEIR car & immediately ran sub 12's... Sooo, the spinning thing DOES have SOME merit...

As for comparing lower speed (standing start, etc) acceleration to higher speed accel, when comparing times from 0-60, 1/4 mile, 0-120, 0-130, 0-150, etc, the 951 stays pretty consistent all the way up- it surely has AOME points where it is slightly faster than other cars that might be a little better off the line, but, I'm saying, that w/in REASON, the 951 does about as well off the line (when launched effectively) as it does at really high speeds- sure, eventually, the TOP speed will allow it to outaccelerate many cars- VERY FEW cars were able to top 162 15yrs ago- not a ton of cars TODAY can do it- this is a byproduct of several things- the decent (not excellent, btu decent) Cx of .33- the rather low frontal area (not excessively low, but decently low) of 20.4 & the gearing vs the HP peak & where everything comes together just right- the regular 951 has 30 fewer ponies & they peak ~200rpm sooner (5800 vs 6000). 6K is ~157, so, 162 is slightly above, but STILL pretty close. The normal turbo peaking @ 5800 (that's ~152) w/30 less HP allows the car to run to ~155. IF the HP peaked @6K, I wonder if the regular turbo would top out higher(?). Throw chips at either one & the top speed (IF the HP doesn't drop off quickly after 6k) should be close to the rev limiter (IF you STILL have one)- I've heard of several people claim they could hit 170 w/chips- if in good tune w/good chips, etc, this SHOULD be possible- AGAIN, IF the HP doesn't drop off, as redline is 6400 @ 167... Anyway, otherwise, the acceleration for all the various speeds lines up pretty well w/everything else out there w/similar #'s....

Any input or technical opinions welcome- I'm always open to learn new stuff & I'm sure there's more to all this that I know....

sorry this got so long....

944TURBOS

Here is my race example of my 951S vs a 2000 S4 with APR tuning and some major engine work. I have a buddy of mine with a silver S4 running about 365hp and I have a 89 951S with some goodies. My car at the time was gutted slightly(back seats, radio, AC, racing seats in front), has some head work, chip, boost controller, tial wastegate, test pipe, fabspeed exhaust, and a couple small goodies here and there. Well he claimed he could smoke my 944 from a start and that i could only beat him on the highway. We decided we would do two runs, one from a standstill and one from a 70mph roll....here are the outcomes...

From the start...As we lined up I reved to about 3500rpms, light turned green and off we went, i slipped the clutch out a little and got a kinda crappy launch, he jumped on me for a second with his damn awd and had me for about 1/2 a car until i hit my boost, i pulled about even as we were heading into 2nd, as 2nd ended i had put about 3/4 of a car on him, by the time i shut down in 3rd i had pulled another car on him, making it about 2 cars. I proved his point wrong and he didnt complain about his launch, i can have him register on the forum to vouge for it.....

Now on the highway....
at 70mph we honked 3 times and off we went, i pulled him hard now. AWD isnt highway friendly and by the time we shut off at about 135mph i had put well over 3 cars on him, maybe pulling close to 3.5 or 4. So i am going to say that a 951 with similar mods to the S4 will be faster...

That being said i love the S4, but you are comparing apples and oranges. I almost bought an S4 when i was buying my previous street car (bmw 325Xi), but decided not to. I love the S4, but my 951 kicks major butt!!!

emwporsche

robby I disagree about your launch statement.
try launching 315 + ft lbs to the wheels with no lsd and street tires
all with a car that has a very light end.

i.e. - tires will only grip in third and up

(unless you very skillfully finesse it, which means wasted power)

if I raced an s4 from a stop I would get stomped.
highway is a totally different story.

porshhhh951

Okay When this thread started and I frist posted.....I was talking about my friend's s4....since our race then(which he won 70mph-125mph) I have dialed in a little more boost and finished out the tune. I told him about this thread and it inspired us to race again and see who the winner is. His car is a 2001 model....he has upgraded chip's,exhaust,intake,and upgraded the turbo's.....he is currently running 17psi of boost.His car made over 360 ground hp...and almost 400tq My car and mod's are a little harder to come by ...as I do not know if my car has a built motor or not...you see My car is a 88' model and while sending my car to lindsey for upgrade's.....dave ordered the chips burnt for and 88 model and they didnt fit....it turn's out there is a 86 engine in my car. It also turns out that my car was raced by the Upchurch Brother's in PCA. I have over 20k in receipt's .....all of the work very hard to tell....just simply say's "installed customer supplied part"...I know the turbo has been redone but once again don't know if it is stock or not. I do for sure know I have lsd,built tranny,perfromance syncro's, poly bushing's,450lb springs, bilsiein shock's...and a few other misc. thing's. I have put a stage 2 maf,55lb injector's,power perfect fuel controller, pro-m,full three inch exhaust including 3 inch downpipe,kokeln chip's,dual port 46mm wastegate,20psi of boost, and some other misc...stuff like boost controller...ect.ect. We ran twice once from a 40 kick...to 130mph.....we were very close...until about top or third shifting to fourth...around 100 I started pulling...I put about 5 or 6 car's on him. The second run we ran from a 70mph kick...to 140mph ......I started pulling from the start and put about 9 to 10 length's on him. His car run's very strong.....he hasent been to the track yet....but think's somewhere in the low to mid 12's range. I believe my car to be around the same in the quater mile......but, up top my car was the dominant. I do not know how much hp my car make's......some of the friend's I have raced...think around 360-380 at the wheel's.......I however......don't think it is that high....but, that's what they say. I do believe my car is capable of mid 12's in the quater...just because I got 14.0 when it was stock and 13.8 when I was stock of 13.5psi of boost.trapping 99mph the first and 102 the second. I hope to get my software soon....cause I have ton's of video footage..of me racing...some road racing....soon 1/4 mile dragging....and alot on the freeway. S4's are ****ing badass...plan and simple.....brad's car walk's c5's for breakfast,munche's on ls1's for lunch, and has modded turbocharged sti's, and evo's for dinner I also have video of him beating a ls6(zo6 vette for you that don't know) his car is fast clean...and is a sleeper....if I could have his car and mine...I would....which is what I might do someday...but, for now...I think I will stick to my 951

happy boosting everyone....wheither you do it in a audi or porsche....my hat is off to you.

Robby

What kind of car are you talking about? And, what are you disagreeing with? This is an old thread now & is over 6 pages long- I'm a little lost at this point....

Doug H

My Ruf 90 NA cabriolet will turn 12.6s at 112 in the 1/4 mile. I only have about 300 hp, but about 290 in torque with a great torque curve.

emwporsche

I have an '86 944 turbo with some mods.
I was talking about having trouble lanching my car, compared to an s4

Robby

Doug- that's VERY IMPRESSIVE! Nice job... Looks like you have slightly taller gearing than a 951- I like tall gearing, despite the fact that it's not as good for acceleration, but, sometimes, given the right ratios & HP/TQ, you can get better times to certain speeds/distances, etc- I just never think of a car as having too tall gearing- only UNDERPOWERED in that case I mean, it's obvious that cars w/less low end TQ & lower HP levels, etc, will need shorter gears than another car- it all comes down to a ton of variables really... Anyway, that's one fast 911NA....

emwporsche- you said:
"try launching 315 + ft lbs to the wheels with no lsd and street tires
all with a car that has a very light end"

I asked what car b/c the 951 really shouldn't have a light rear end- they were advertised & written up in magazine tests as having perfect 50/50 dist, but, most people who've corner balanced them have put them closer to 51/49- the 968 was 48.5/51.5, AND, I recently came across some articles were a few 944's were corner balanced- there initial distributions were: 944NA: 49.2/50.8 & a 944S2: 49.6/50.4. I have talked w/some guys who say their 951's were ~49/51, although the 951's disadvatage is the turbo itself- the parts all add up to a few lbs & the intercooler is at the farthest possible forward point- the 944S2 engine weighs ~370lbs, whereas the 968's weighs ~380lbs & the 951 weighs 404- the 968, of course, ALSO has the benefit (weight distributionwise that is) of having a beefier trans (w/EXTRA gear) so that adds a few more lbs to the rear. At any rate, in general, these cars are really ABOUT as good it it gets as far as weight dist goes, short of mid & rear engine cars. Nonetheless, I understand what you're saying- it's not the EASIEST car to launch & these cars really don't show their strength in off-the-line drags- they do better in 3rd gear roll-on races, etc- BUT, what I was saying (& this is where I have a prob w/you're disagreement), is that if you check the #'s, they add up pretty well- the Turbo S ran a 5.5 0-60 (I don't care HOW hard it is to launch or what will outdrag what, a 5.5 0-60 is a 5.5 0-60)- the Turbo S ALSO ran the 1/4 in 14.2 & if you'll look around & check some stats, you'll see that that's pretty much DEAD-ON the $ w/what it should be- any car out there that runs a 5.5 0-60 will run relatively close (w/in several 1/10th's, if it's a fairly normal street car w/street gearing etc) will run ~14.2 @ the 1/4. An E36 M3 will run 0-60 in 5.5 & run a 14.0 @ 1/4 but that car has short gearing & that helps it up high, combinded w/it's low Cx & frontal area, etc- those cars (96 & up) were FAST- of course, it's much easier to get a consistent launch w/the M3, but, if done correctly, the Turbo S & M3 should be right beside each other by 60 & the M3 will be showign tail lights by 100 (but only ~2 car lengths) & should get worse as speed increases until ~150 when the M3 runs out of gear assuming its not governed earlier). One thing to note- Porsche normally estimates their speeds about right, but, the original prototype Turbo S that was tested must have been much stronger- factory literature estimates it as running 13.5 @ 1/4, but that never happened in production vehicles- the fastest I've EVER seen one run was a 13.9 in C&D & THAT was b/c it had shorter gearing, which I assume is what Porsche had originally intended- it was a 3.65FD vs 3.38FD which limited top speed to ~145- 0-60 didn't benefit b/c the shift to 3rd came right before, but it still ran an identical 5.5, but, by the 1/4, it was 3/10's (~3 car lengths) ahead- I personally think that if gearing were made slightly TALLER, that it MIGHT have had the same effect at the 1/4- maybe not quite as much, but, maybe a 14.0, only b/c the shift into 4th comes right before crossing the line too- in this case, it would probably be better for YOU, since you have so much more HP/TQ- might make it a little easier to get traction in 2nd- it's all a trade-off though- I like the idea of having ~500+ RWHP/TQ & redlines somewhere in the area of: 1st- 50, 2nd- 80, 3rd- 122.5, 4th- 165, 5th- 207.5, OR, even better, a 6-sp w/: 1st- 45, 2nd- 75, 3rd- 110, 4th- 145, 5th- 170, 6th- 215 & w/THAT much HP/TQ, you SHOULD be able to make use of all that But, back to reality... I'm hoping for an honest 300+RWHP/TQ w/simple bolt-ons, etc & w/that, I'll hopefully break into the high 12's @ >110 & be able to break 180 top speed (w/S2 5th gear- .78). I see what you're saying, & you're right, that the 951 could be a little more launch-friendly, &, you DEFINATELY need a LSD of some sort...

sorry- didn't mean to type another book...

Robby

John- that's some cool stuff- I didn't see your last reply until just now- IF you really pulled him 9-10 full car lengths than you should have no trouble getting in the low 12's, maybe high 11's, @ the 1/4, if he can hit low 12's, which he'd HAVE to be capable of to be able to beat Z06's. the 993/996TT are >400HP/TQ & w/AWD, twin turbos, & SHORT gearing are ~12.2 avg, so for a 951 to do it would mean AT LEAST 400HP/TQ at the crank & PROBABLY more, unless it's MUCH lighter or gearing's been screwed with- the original Prototype 951S had shorter gearing- a 3.65 vs 3.38 which is one reasson why Porsche literature said the Turbo S ran a 13.5 @ 1/4- the production ones were 14.2 except for the one tested in C&D where they had to drive an individual's car & the particular customer had specially ordered the car w/Euro 3.65 FD- it ran a 13.9- it's 0-60 was exactly the same though, 5.5, as the shift to 3rd came ~55mph...

Please keep me informed on your progress- I'd love to hear how you do if/when you run it again- PM me & I'll send you my e-mail address, etc... Do you have a G-tech? if so, will you do a 60-0 test for distance? I'd also like to hear any cool progress on your friend's S4- I would LOVE to have an S4 in addition to my 951S...

mumzer

the 951 will run away and hide from the s4 on a road course, or on a windy road.

the s-4 is a front heavy and pushy FWD biased platform...the whole damn motor is in front of the front spindle centerline;

the cooling is marginal at elevated temps...
the stock brake calipers belong on the end of chains hanging from the front of small boats
they push like hell
they weigh WAY too much
did i mention that they push like hell?


if you are buying a street car, buy the audi....if you want to go fast on a race track, buy something that was meant to do so.

sure the audi makes power, and has tremendous grip, but unless its raining, a well driven 951 with similar level of power will just drive away.

go look at the season one otc lap times from the race prepped S-4...transponders dont lie....between 2 and 4 seconds a lap slower EVERYWHERE than other t-3 cars (like NA 944s and early (E30) M3s.

they are great cars, but they just are not fast on a roadcourse

porshhhh951

Hey robby. Whoa this thread is really old. I re read that post and that was in the second week on janurary. I guess I haden't gotten any videos up yet at that point. I don't have a g-tech. But, I can tell you my 0-60 would prolly be crap. I really don't launch my car that much. I have been to the track a couple of times when I was close to stock but, I haven't been back in a while. I wouldn't want to launch that hard on my clutch with the hp...cause I don't know if he upgraded it when he replaced it.....he might have just bought a oem one. Although it bites hard and feel solid. Yeah that second run I had him by 10 lenth's for sure. But, we also went from 70mph and ran to 140mph. That's strickly highway racing. If me and him were to race in the 1/4 I bet we would be very very close. Him taking me outta the hole and me trying to play catch up. As far as the hp claim go's who know's. My friends all swear 360-380rwhp but, that is just way to strong of a #. I really don't think its that high. I mean 380rwhp mean's I would be getting 437 hp to the crank on 15% drivetain loss. 437hp for me is a hard # to swallow. Maybe If I knew I had a big turbo and race gas...and 20+psi of boost.....I might be able to believe that. We will see. The car is at perry's(our family porsche mechanic) and he is doing a complete winter check up for me. Changing all the fluid's oil,coolant,gear oil,brake fluid. Flushing the cooling system. Checking everything from head to toe with a tune-up....making sure I am good to go when the weather clear's up. Whenever I do get it back and get a free saturday I will have the car dyno'd and then all speculation will be laid to rest FINALLY!. Right now I gotta figure out what kind of tire setup I am going with. I think I will use my phone dial's with some hoosier's this year...and maybe by some new kuhmo rubber for the 17's. Does anyone know what track slick's cost for our car's??? How long do that last before replacing them? I would be tracking the car twice a month. I have seen alot of guy's driving on their street rims and tires and when they get to the track they switch out to their race setup. I think this is what I want to do this year.

Yeah his s4 is ****ing sick! I mean sick. It's so clean.... I absolutely love it. I really do think he is going to hit low 12's this year. He is also talking alot of **** to me....about how I might be king of the tollway...but, he would eat me for breakfast at the drag strip.lol. He also says he plans on going to some sort of stand alone managent....throwing some race fuel in there and turning up the boost on my a** lol. If we do run again I will try and get a passenger so I can film it. He said he really likes my car and is considering trying to find one to play around with soon. So maybe I can finally have a friend of mine who has the same car....would be kinda cool.

Robby

John- W/my reference to the g-tech, I meant 60-0, not 0-60- I'd like to hear some more braking distances for these cars... Let us know what happens...

mumzer- I agree w/pretty much everything you've said, only, I haven't been able to find any lap times for any tracks or courses that I'm familiar enough with the 951 to compare- do you know how a professionally driven S4 would run WS? I agree it's VERY heavy & the push part, etc is rough, but, understeer can be taken care of fairly easily (to a point of course) AND can be learned to deal with & corrected for (again, to a point)- I would agree that the 951 is normally a better choice for track-only too, although I didn't think that's really the main question in this thread- but one thing I DO stress is the simplicity of hitting HIGH 12's in an S4 is a LOT easier than a 951- just chips & your're right at the 13.0 mark & you're MUCH MUCH more comfortable doing it w/a MUCH more streetable car... It all comes down to what you want & several people have mentioned it's like comparing apples to oranges- in a way, they're right- I think the best answer is to just own one of each (or two, or three, or...)

Doug H

I had an S4 and a TT 225. All three of my 911s will run away and hide from those cars in the straights and forget about it in the twisties.