951 vs S4
12-14-2003, 06:08 PM
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lart951 quote:
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My 951 is lightly modified and my S4 is less modified and they are both fairly close
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by 3 turbos
3 turbos, could you list the mods on your 951 please.
lart951,
I trying to do a reliable street car - as always, everytime you do something to your car, it finds another weak link - also it is a work in progress even though I've owed it for many years, and built and owned other race cars, I have kept this one, only because they are not worth much and it is cheaper for me to keep it - I'm but a poor man now.
951 mods - http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/3_turbos
My S4 is a daily driver and bought only for that duty - If Iwanted to buy it for anything else, I would have bought a 6speed manual.
Mods on the S4 is simply 2 computers - one for the engine for more hp and tq and one for the transmission for quicker shifts - plus it is fully loaded with "all the factory options", i.e., NAV, CD changer, heated door locks, seats, and all washer fluids (you need that heated stuff in MN) etc.
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My 951 is lightly modified and my S4 is less modified and they are both fairly close
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by 3 turbos
3 turbos, could you list the mods on your 951 please.
lart951,
I trying to do a reliable street car - as always, everytime you do something to your car, it finds another weak link - also it is a work in progress even though I've owed it for many years, and built and owned other race cars, I have kept this one, only because they are not worth much and it is cheaper for me to keep it - I'm but a poor man now.
951 mods - http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/3_turbos
My S4 is a daily driver and bought only for that duty - If Iwanted to buy it for anything else, I would have bought a 6speed manual.
Mods on the S4 is simply 2 computers - one for the engine for more hp and tq and one for the transmission for quicker shifts - plus it is fully loaded with "all the factory options", i.e., NAV, CD changer, heated door locks, seats, and all washer fluids (you need that heated stuff in MN) etc.
12-14-2003, 06:30 PM
#62
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Robby,
Forgot my final drive ring and pinion change is the only difference besides my increase in rpm limit.
Ring and pinion is a 3.889
RPM limit should be 6850 to about 6950 - but not always consistant - I've hit 7200 in the lower gears - cuase it winds up "real fast" with short gears
Diameter tires used are different because I have 2 track setups.
http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/3_turbos
S4 has 2 different ECU's engine is from APR and Transmission is from AWE
One of these days I'll get a friend to drive my S4 and do a roll from 50 to 100/120 and see how close we are.
The S4 just seems faster and is definetly effortless when getting to speed and the 366ft lbs of tq all in by 2500rpms is such a rush - I mean I just sit there with no muss no fuss and simply stick my foot into it and it goes very well - it is simply one of the best all around general purpose cars I've owned or least that I can afford without monthly payments.
I mean a stock or modified RS6 would be nice, but I hate car payments. Especially if I continue to throw money at the 951 which my wife (and I) agree to say it is a money pit - but she laughs at me and can't understand why I put money into such an old car (951) ince I don't drive it very much.
Forgot my final drive ring and pinion change is the only difference besides my increase in rpm limit.
Ring and pinion is a 3.889
RPM limit should be 6850 to about 6950 - but not always consistant - I've hit 7200 in the lower gears - cuase it winds up "real fast" with short gears
Diameter tires used are different because I have 2 track setups.
http://www.p-caronline.com/directory/3_turbos
S4 has 2 different ECU's engine is from APR and Transmission is from AWE
One of these days I'll get a friend to drive my S4 and do a roll from 50 to 100/120 and see how close we are.
The S4 just seems faster and is definetly effortless when getting to speed and the 366ft lbs of tq all in by 2500rpms is such a rush - I mean I just sit there with no muss no fuss and simply stick my foot into it and it goes very well - it is simply one of the best all around general purpose cars I've owned or least that I can afford without monthly payments.
I mean a stock or modified RS6 would be nice, but I hate car payments. Especially if I continue to throw money at the 951 which my wife (and I) agree to say it is a money pit - but she laughs at me and can't understand why I put money into such an old car (951) ince I don't drive it very much.
12-15-2003, 01:17 AM
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Steve- that all sounds pretty cool- how did you end up w/a 3.89 anyway? Also, why? I'm just curious- I've always wanted slightly taller gearing, ESPECIALLY 5th- of course, mosr HP/TQ would be needed to offset the loss, but, I never think of cars as being over-geared, but UNDER-powered... It would just be difficult for me to drive a daily car w/musch shorter gearing, although I know it would help acceleration- would be great for tighter tracks though.... Also, how did you increase the rev limit- chips? I'm thinking you left them out of the mod equation(?)- what about all the things in the cockpit- did you increase the boost at all? Sounds like you have an excellent pair of cars there....
12-15-2003, 01:41 AM
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Robby,
how did you end up w/a 3.89 anyway? Also, why?
Because for me:
*) it was the only gearing available at the time
*) its quicker on the street
*) less precieved lag
*) it feels like more hp
*) it is the perfect gearing for my local track
*) where in the heck you gonna drive at 165-170mph with standard gearing - I rather put the hp and tq in a narrower bandwidth than have top speed because I can't make use of it anyways
You can get your chips programed with your choice of rev limit.
My boost right now is about 15lbs - after a new set of chips are burned, it will be optimized at 17 or 18lbs for street - although I'll run 15lbs at the track
how did you end up w/a 3.89 anyway? Also, why?
Because for me:
*) it was the only gearing available at the time
*) its quicker on the street
*) less precieved lag
*) it feels like more hp
*) it is the perfect gearing for my local track
*) where in the heck you gonna drive at 165-170mph with standard gearing - I rather put the hp and tq in a narrower bandwidth than have top speed because I can't make use of it anyways
You can get your chips programed with your choice of rev limit.
My boost right now is about 15lbs - after a new set of chips are burned, it will be optimized at 17 or 18lbs for street - although I'll run 15lbs at the track
12-15-2003, 01:46 AM
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Ahmet 3 turbos, why do you have two rear window defrost switches in your 944?
Ahmet
I used that factory switch for another function - I choose that switch because it reminds me of airflow - so I wired that switch to kick in the electric fans when I'm in traffic, if I want to keep the car cooler - because sometimes the fans don't kick in until it is higher than I would like, plus it looks factory
Ahmet
I used that factory switch for another function - I choose that switch because it reminds me of airflow - so I wired that switch to kick in the electric fans when I'm in traffic, if I want to keep the car cooler - because sometimes the fans don't kick in until it is higher than I would like, plus it looks factory
12-15-2003, 09:42 AM
#68
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posted by robby:
Anyway, make no mistake about it, a V8 S4 that is putting out full power is pretty damn fast- a 13.5 will beat a stock Turbo S by .7 sec- sure, you can chip a Turbo S & get CLOSE, but still- a chipped S4TT on the other hand, will flat out destroy a chipped 951 w/nothing else, but again, assuming it is in good tune- the S4TT's don't put out near the HP (even chipped, they're only ~310) but, they get the TQ to ~370) & THAT is what get's the axles turning & they are ~200lbs lighter, etc- I love Audis, but I'm not too big on hte new V8's.... I LOVE the S4TT's though- to each his own....
Robby you seem to be forgetting that the 951 with a chip, exhaust and mbc has the advantage because of weight to power. Rule of thumb is 50 crank hp for every 400 pounds. Problem is most 951's are not in tune 17 years and lack of maintainance will do that to a car. Drive a healthy one and you will understand.
Anyway, make no mistake about it, a V8 S4 that is putting out full power is pretty damn fast- a 13.5 will beat a stock Turbo S by .7 sec- sure, you can chip a Turbo S & get CLOSE, but still- a chipped S4TT on the other hand, will flat out destroy a chipped 951 w/nothing else, but again, assuming it is in good tune- the S4TT's don't put out near the HP (even chipped, they're only ~310) but, they get the TQ to ~370) & THAT is what get's the axles turning & they are ~200lbs lighter, etc- I love Audis, but I'm not too big on hte new V8's.... I LOVE the S4TT's though- to each his own....
Robby you seem to be forgetting that the 951 with a chip, exhaust and mbc has the advantage because of weight to power. Rule of thumb is 50 crank hp for every 400 pounds. Problem is most 951's are not in tune 17 years and lack of maintainance will do that to a car. Drive a healthy one and you will understand.
12-15-2003, 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by jimbo1111
Robby you seem to be forgetting that the 951 with a chip, exhaust and mbc has the advantage because of weight to power. Rule of thumb is 50 crank hp for every 400 pounds. Problem is most 951's are not in tune 17 years and lack of maintainance will do that to a car. Drive a healthy one and you will understand.
Robby you seem to be forgetting that the 951 with a chip, exhaust and mbc has the advantage because of weight to power. Rule of thumb is 50 crank hp for every 400 pounds. Problem is most 951's are not in tune 17 years and lack of maintainance will do that to a car. Drive a healthy one and you will understand.
In any event- MY 951S sucks- I've had nothing but probs really- I keep it b/c I've dropped a TON of $ into it & have done so many litte things, I could NEVER recover- I keep looking forward to the day when I have it finished, as I KNOW it has great potential- I said something about S4's being all over the place b/c of state ot tune, etc & production variances...well, 951's are the same way- so, you're right- it really depends on many variables for specicif cars, etc- all I'm trying to say is, a stock S4 (either TT or V8) that is in good production condition & broken in well, etc, is a fast car & genuine contender (if not slightly ahead of) a 951S- chip one & you have even MORE- & a GOOD BIT MORE w/TT- the options are endless though- if you've got enough $, you can drive a Pinto that blows away 993TT's all day long, but does that really mean, that if you come across a 993TT & just flat out DESTROY it (b/c the TT wasn't in proper tune) that ALL 993's are slow? Not quite- means a lot of things are at work actually, not to mention that you're driving around in a $300,000 Pinto w/Supra TT engine wedged in, etc.... Hell- don't say it's not possible- look at that Dodge caravan that runs sub 11's.... Ugly son of a bitch, but it IS fast in a straight line...
Personally, I'd rather be in a stock 951 running 14.5's ANY DAY, but....
12-16-2003, 09:55 AM
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The more I look at these S4's the more I like them. Even though they are a heavy car.
It looks like the v-6 turbos can gain about 45hp with just a chip and air filter upgrade? That puts them up around 295 flywheel HP.
Not bad at all to zip around town in each day. And somewhere I read that full boost is around 1850 RPM. correct me if I am wrong.
It looks like the v-6 turbos can gain about 45hp with just a chip and air filter upgrade? That puts them up around 295 flywheel HP.
Not bad at all to zip around town in each day. And somewhere I read that full boost is around 1850 RPM. correct me if I am wrong.
12-16-2003, 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by bdellis
The more I look at these S4's the more I like them. Even though they are a heavy car.
It looks like the v-6 turbos can gain about 45hp with just a chip and air filter upgrade? That puts them up around 295 flywheel HP.
Not bad at all to zip around town in each day. And somewhere I read that full boost is around 1850 RPM. correct me if I am wrong.
The more I look at these S4's the more I like them. Even though they are a heavy car.
It looks like the v-6 turbos can gain about 45hp with just a chip and air filter upgrade? That puts them up around 295 flywheel HP.
Not bad at all to zip around town in each day. And somewhere I read that full boost is around 1850 RPM. correct me if I am wrong.
12-16-2003, 12:07 PM
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bdellis
The more I look at these S4's the more I like them. Even though they are a heavy car.
It looks like the v-6 turbos can gain about 45hp with just a chip and air filter upgrade? That puts them up around 295 flywheel HP.
Not bad at all to zip around town in each day. And somewhere I read that full boost is around 1850 RPM. correct me if I am wrong.
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bdellis,
These cars are not the best in any area, but pretty darn close to the top in any area if that makes sense - i.e., not the fastest, but fast, not the best dry handling, but close, etc, etc,
But they are a GREAT ALL AROUND CARS!! and can't be beat for winter traction and four passenger comfort - heck its a 4 door sedan.
Stock cars tq comes all in at 1850 (258 ft lbs), but chipped cars, at least mine, tq is all in by 2500 (366 ft lbs) A little later, but oh boy what bottom end!
I'm not saying that there is a slew of bad S4's out there, because there are some, but VERY FEW.
People that have trouble with these cars are the same people that have trouble with any car.
And they get compared to cars that technically sport cars or cars that are one step up from them like an M3, that is a 2 door, it should be compared to a 330 ix, and M5 should be compared to an RS6 and comparing it to a Z06? It just goes to show you that a S4 is not a bad car at all, to be in the company of cars that it is compared to fair or unfair - plus that fact, that the one's mentioned would never be as good in the winter as the S4
The more I look at these S4's the more I like them. Even though they are a heavy car.
It looks like the v-6 turbos can gain about 45hp with just a chip and air filter upgrade? That puts them up around 295 flywheel HP.
Not bad at all to zip around town in each day. And somewhere I read that full boost is around 1850 RPM. correct me if I am wrong.
__________________________________________________________
bdellis,
These cars are not the best in any area, but pretty darn close to the top in any area if that makes sense - i.e., not the fastest, but fast, not the best dry handling, but close, etc, etc,
But they are a GREAT ALL AROUND CARS!! and can't be beat for winter traction and four passenger comfort - heck its a 4 door sedan.
Stock cars tq comes all in at 1850 (258 ft lbs), but chipped cars, at least mine, tq is all in by 2500 (366 ft lbs) A little later, but oh boy what bottom end!
I'm not saying that there is a slew of bad S4's out there, because there are some, but VERY FEW.
People that have trouble with these cars are the same people that have trouble with any car.
And they get compared to cars that technically sport cars or cars that are one step up from them like an M3, that is a 2 door, it should be compared to a 330 ix, and M5 should be compared to an RS6 and comparing it to a Z06? It just goes to show you that a S4 is not a bad car at all, to be in the company of cars that it is compared to fair or unfair - plus that fact, that the one's mentioned would never be as good in the winter as the S4
12-17-2003, 12:29 AM
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Yea, I am in the market for a daily driver soon. I have a 97 maxima that I love. Its a 5spd pretty well modified. But I would like something a little nicer. Front wheel drive is getting a bit old too.
I had considered a 2000 plus S4 or perhaps an A6.
Its good to hear good info on them. www.eopinions.com has real good feedback on them too.
I had considered a 2000 plus S4 or perhaps an A6.
Its good to hear good info on them. www.eopinions.com has real good feedback on them too.
12-17-2003, 01:40 AM
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When I started this thread I was looking for a daily driver with more or similar power than my 951. I could use my 02 Camry as daily driver but it lacks power, it’s an extremely reliable car but it’s dull like hell, very emotionless vehicle. Well to make the story short I had seen this nice looking 00 S4 near my house in a used car dealer with very low miles, well finally I took the car for a spin here are my feelings about the S4;
The S4 is a very refined vehicle, the interior is quite attractive, and outside the style is sporty and elegant. The S4 is much quicker that the 951 off the line no doubt about that , the handling is surprisingly good for a 4 door car, still you can feel the extra weight when taking tight turns(I scare the hell out of the salesman). The response is almost instantly compared to the 951. I do feel that from a rolling stop my 951 will have the edge over the S4. (944T are so hard to take fast off the line, but once running I’m certain that my Porsche will pull away from the Audi( But I don’t want a car for ¼ mile runs anyway and I don’t believe you can measure performance by ¼ mile times).
Overall, the feeling is that the S4 is a great sport sedan and only that . The 951 in the other side comes alive much harder and it feels faster from a rolling start.
I will keep my money pit (951) I finally bought an engine from John Forbes at black forest Racing is coming next Monday, hopefully by next January I'll riding my 951 again after 4 blown heads, and a broken ring I was about to give up but nevertheless the beast will live again. I thought about buying the S4 because it’s newer than my 86 944T and perhaps more reliable, but if I want reliability I'll buy a Toyota.
But for fun and burned oil smell and the kick of boost I'll keep my 951 until I am bankrupt or divorce.
Thanks for all the replies.
Luis
The S4 is a very refined vehicle, the interior is quite attractive, and outside the style is sporty and elegant. The S4 is much quicker that the 951 off the line no doubt about that , the handling is surprisingly good for a 4 door car, still you can feel the extra weight when taking tight turns(I scare the hell out of the salesman). The response is almost instantly compared to the 951. I do feel that from a rolling stop my 951 will have the edge over the S4. (944T are so hard to take fast off the line, but once running I’m certain that my Porsche will pull away from the Audi( But I don’t want a car for ¼ mile runs anyway and I don’t believe you can measure performance by ¼ mile times).
Overall, the feeling is that the S4 is a great sport sedan and only that . The 951 in the other side comes alive much harder and it feels faster from a rolling start.
I will keep my money pit (951) I finally bought an engine from John Forbes at black forest Racing is coming next Monday, hopefully by next January I'll riding my 951 again after 4 blown heads, and a broken ring I was about to give up but nevertheless the beast will live again. I thought about buying the S4 because it’s newer than my 86 944T and perhaps more reliable, but if I want reliability I'll buy a Toyota.
But for fun and burned oil smell and the kick of boost I'll keep my 951 until I am bankrupt or divorce.
Thanks for all the replies.
Luis