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1st Start Attempt. Loud Fast Clicking. Crank Barely Turns. SOLVED!!! And RUNNING!!!
It's been about one year since I bought my '84 928 S automatic. PO hadn't driven it since at least 2010, more likely not since 2007. Needless to say it didn't run when I got it. The fuel system was polluted with varnished gas.
I spent the last year cleaning, repairing and replacing all the pertinent fuel system components as well as doing a top end refresh. After completing a successful fuel leak check Friday I pushed her outside tonight and tried to start it for the first time. And NO JOY. Check out the video. Loud clicking (from the starter I presume) and as you can see the crank is barely turning. My initial feeling is this looks like a symptom of a weak battery. However the battery was fully charged. I even tried jumping it with my Landcruiser and got the same result. It's late here so I didn't spend any time troubleshooting but I'm not sure where to start. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Here is a list a just a few of the pertinent components I have replaced.
Fuel Pump
Fuel Filter
GB fuel lines front and rear
Distributer cap and rotor
Ignition coil
Spark plugs and wires
The green wire
WitchHunter injector overhaul
Vacuum lines
Ground strap (from the block to the body)
Starter
All ground points cleaned
CE panel removed and cleaned with DeOxit and erasers
The normal reason for that kind of clicking is when the battery has not got enough oomph in it causing the solenoid to engage/disengage in rapid fire. Whether or not it cranks the motor slightly or not I really do not know because I have never seen the crank whilst such happens but I can well believe it might nudge it a tooth.
What shape is the battery to body ground strap in?
When I replaced mine it looked good from the outside. When I cut into the outside sheathing and exposed the internal wire, it was all corroded with quite a few of the wire strands broken.
add on a jumper booster cable from the battery ground terminal to the shock tower.
Check or replace the starter relay.
As a quick test separate the 14 pin connector then touch pin 14 to the hot post, the starter should run, add the jumper at the battery and see if any changes this will tell you if your ground strap is bad.
If the starter works as it should without the cable then the relay should be swapped.
Have you installed a new battery ground strap? I'd be suspecting a resistive main earth strap, or resistive battery to starter connection under load. Check and clean all those connections and replace the battery rear main ground strap.
As Fred noted, chattering is the solenoid cycling in/out in response to high load voltage drop .... solenoid in and voltage drops under load, then it drops out due to voltage drop, which allow voltage to rise, which allows it to kick in again ... ad infinitum. Smaller relays chatter like that also when voltage is marginal.
You say it's got a new starter. Is it new?
Did you bench test it?
If the starter is ok, then it's basically that you aren't getting enough power to the starter. When the solenoid engages, the starter motor takes a lot of power. If you can't get enough power to the starter, then the solenoid loses power and "releases". That frees up enough power for the solenoid to engage again. This process repeats itself very rapidly. That's what the clicking is.
Sooooo... (Captain Obvious at your service)
Battery good? Put a meter on it while you crank and see what the voltage does.
Battery to bakc frame ground strap good? If it's bad under the insulation, you can see good continuity, but it doesn't have enough current carrying capability to run the starter. Put a meter on the jump post when you crank it.
If it isn't those three, then you have to start chasing.
But I will guess it's the starter, battery or ground strap.
The normal reason for that kind of clicking is when the battery has not got enough oomph in it causing the solenoid to engage/disengage in rapid fire. Whether or not it cranks the motor slightly or not I really do not know because I have never seen the crank whilst such happens but I can well believe it might nudge it a tooth.
That's what I initially suspected. The battery I first tried to start it with came with the car but is newer (I don't know how old). I charged it and it has the voltage but may very well not be supplying the amperage. So I tried jumping with the my 4Runner that has a brand new battery (750 CCA). Same result. Both these attempts were using jumper cables from the battery to the cable leads in the battery well. The final attempt was using my Landcruiser battery (850 CCA). This time I hooked the jumper cables to the engine jump post and ground to the cross brace nut as seen in the photo.
Originally Posted by 928S MN
What shape is the battery to body ground strap in?
When I replaced mine it looked good from the outside. When I cut into the outside sheathing and exposed the internal wire, it was all corroded with quite a few of the wire strands broken.
It looks ok from the outside. I have not replaced it. It very well could be bad. However, like I mentioned to Fred, I wasn't using this cable during the last attempts and still got the same result.
Originally Posted by Mrmerlin
add on a jumper booster cable from the battery ground terminal to the shock tower.
Check or replace the starter relay.
As a quick test separate the 14 pin connector then touch pin 14 to the hot post, the starter should run, add the jumper at the battery and see if any changes this will tell you if your ground strap is bad.
If the starter works as it should without the cable then the relay could be bad
I will try this when I get home from work today. I'm wondering if using the cross brace nut as a ground like you can see in the photo is actually providing too much resistance? Is there another relay that I can swap with the starter relay?
Originally Posted by Dave928S
Have you installed a new battery ground strap? I'd be suspecting a resistive main earth strap, or resistive battery to starter connection under load. Check and clean all those connections and replace the battery rear main ground strap.
As Fred noted, chattering is the solenoid cycling in/out in response to high load voltage drop .... solenoid in and voltage drops under load, then it drops out due to voltage drop, which allow voltage to rise, which allows it to kick in again ... ad infinitum. Smaller relays chatter like that also when voltage is marginal.
I have not replaced the rear ground strap. But like I told Fred I bypassed that strap when I tried to start it from the engine connections. I'm hoping it's a bad starter relay.
You say it's got a new starter. Is it new?
Did you bench test it?
If the starter is ok, then it's basically that you aren't getting enough power to the starter. When the solenoid engages, the starter motor takes a lot of power. If you can't get enough power to the starter, then the solenoid loses power and "releases". That frees up enough power for the solenoid to engage again. This process repeats itself very rapidly. That's what the clicking is.
Sooooo... (Captain Obvious at your service)
Battery good? Put a meter on it while you crank and see what the voltage does.
Battery to bakc frame ground strap good? If it's bad under the insulation, you can see good continuity, but it doesn't have enough current carrying capability to run the starter. Put a meter on the jump post when you crank it.
If it isn't those three, then you have to start chasing.
But I will guess it's the starter, battery or ground strap.
The starter is a new Bosch unit from Roger. It is however smaller in diameter and lighter than the Bosch one that was in the car, which I assume was either original or a replacement of the original P/N. I did not bench test the new starter.
As I mentioned above I actually tried three batteries. Two of the three I know to be good. However I never connected any of them directly to the batter leads in the rear battery well. They were all connected through jumper cables to those leads or to the jump post in the engine. My guess right now is I have a bad ground strap and that when I tried it from the front, grounding it to the cross brace bolt was not providing a good ground path.
As with any problem solver start with the more obvious and work your way through the list of candidates.
If you are sure you have eliminated the battery then you also need to eliminate the ground strap. My experience wth a poor ground strap is that the motor spins slower but I dare say if it was bad enough it might exhibit the solenoid clicking phenomena. Look under the heat shrink both ends and see if you can see a load of frayed ends and discolouring of the copper. If the decay is bad enough to cause your symptoms you will have no problem spotting such degraded condition of the strap. Beyond that I dare say the solenoid itself or the joints at the starter motor could be degraded.
The ground strap may very well be the issue. However I bypassed the strap all together by grounding to the chassis through the cross brace bolt. Though as Stan suggested the strut tower may be a more ideal ground. I will try that next.
I am making the assumption that the starter is not the issue since I installed it yesterday new out of the box from Roger. Not to say it could have been DOA.
Exciting to hear that you are this close to finally starting this! I admire your diligence in doing this car the right way.
I had a similar issue long ago with my 81. I was able to jump pin 14 to hot to start each time but not successfully from the ignition switch. I fixed it by cleaning grounds especially the engine to chassis strap.
Thanks Guy! And I'm proud to say it sports a nice used set of rear bumper shocks thanks to you.
I'm excited to get home and troubleshoot this further. Last night it got late and I was tired. Didn't feel like doing a lot of research then. Today I have spent some time researching and thanks to Fred, Stan, Dave and Joe I have some areas to start with. Also found a real good write up by Wally Plumley that I'm going to follow. Hopefully I'll have some good news to report tonight.
The ground strap may very well be the issue. However I bypassed the strap all together by grounding to the chassis through the cross brace bolt. Though as Stan suggested the strut tower may be a more ideal ground. I will try that next. ....
Nate ... reading your posts (the one above in particular) I get the impression that you used a bypass cable at the front of the car to ensure a good ground . Doing that will give a good ground of the block to the body, but will not bypass a potentially bad ground strap from the battery to the body at the rear. To bypass that, and provide a good ground to the battery, you need to put a jumper cable on the battery terminal where the ground strap connects, and connect it to a good ground in that area (shock tower as Stan suggests ... at the rear). Doing that will provide a parallel connection to your existing rear ground strap ... if it solves the problem then it proves the battery ground strap is resistive/bad, and problem solved.
All your other earths can be perfect, but if that main earth connection of the battery at the rear is not up to scratch, then you'll get voltage drop, particularly under high load, such as starting.
All earth connections are important, but the two most vital for charging and power supply are the engine to body, and battery to body (one of which you've already renewed).
05-15-2017, 04:03 AM
1st Start Attempt. Loud Fast Clicking. Crank Barely Turns. SOLVED!!! And RUNNING!!!
