Gain 100HP with an intake manifold change?? - Cross post from Ferrari Chat
04-14-2016, 07:57 PM
#706
Rennlist Member
Mark -- The AMV8 intake is a proven design for that motor and for that motor only. There are tons of differences between the AMV8's motor and the 928's motor. Most of those differences affect what would be the optimal design for the intake. It is unlikely that an intake designed from the ground up just for the 928, using all of today's technology, but keeping the rest of the 928 motor the same, would look anything like the AMV8's intake.
Even if by some chance the general concepts employed in the AMV8's intake were right for the 928, the various parts of the intake are undoubtedly the wrong size for the 928's motor. Your dealing in an area where small changes in size and shape make huge differences in performance. What are the chances that the AMV8's intake -- sized for a motor of a substantially different design than the 928's -- is the correct size for a 928? Fat and slim have already left town. The only chance you have left is none.
If you're going to do this thing, use Hans' parts in combination with off the shelf components to produce an intake with the length and diameter of runners you want. It's not going to get any simpler than that.
Even if by some chance the general concepts employed in the AMV8's intake were right for the 928, the various parts of the intake are undoubtedly the wrong size for the 928's motor. Your dealing in an area where small changes in size and shape make huge differences in performance. What are the chances that the AMV8's intake -- sized for a motor of a substantially different design than the 928's -- is the correct size for a 928? Fat and slim have already left town. The only chance you have left is none.
If you're going to do this thing, use Hans' parts in combination with off the shelf components to produce an intake with the length and diameter of runners you want. It's not going to get any simpler than that.
he proof is in the power levels of the of the AM 4.3 and 4.7 engines with this intake, getting up to 450rwhp. the intake supports it, ours doesnt. AND, it doesn't sacrifice any mid range hp. its a modern design. thre is not that much special about the AM engine it has a stroke like a GTS 928, but a narrow bore. the ports are huge, Yet the cam is near like a GT cam, with even smaller valves than the S4. all adds up to something that would work MUCH better than the stock intake, but (and its a big but), it has to be connected to Hans' flanges and that might not be possible. everything else will bolt right on, even using the stock fuel rails and components. otherwise, its just a better idea to spend the extra money and buy Gregs system, regardless of the cost.
04-14-2016, 08:30 PM
#707
Chronic Tool Dropper
Lifetime Rennlist
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MK:
Somehow there seems to be a tone to your posts that says that once some engineering has been done for engine A, or engine F or engine C, it should be easily transferable to engine P. Use your imagination and decide how well that would work on the opposite sides of the heads -- put the A-M, F or C exhaust headers on the P engine mounted in your car. You'll want at least two boxes of offset studs for the heads, with nuts that have an OD smaller than the ID. Even then it won't fit and won't work. Different exhaust valve sizes and port dimensions, cam timing, rest-of-the-exhaust... and different displacement. Except for those things, it should fit right up and work as it was designed for the A-M, F or C engines, right?
Remind me why "adapting" the A-M, F or C intake system would be any different.
Did "we" (same as: Mark) find a suitable S4 coffee-table engine with heads for design and initial fitment? A way to computer-model the flows and velocities through the individual runners at various loads and engine RPM's? Got thermal expansion and subsequent misalignment built into your plan?
Greg and the group have outlined some of the many serious requirements for his intakes. Fuel system upgrade that you discount even after being told that the stock system doesn't work -- you blow that off with a statement that the stock system is good for XX horsepower so it should be fine. That theory has already been proven wrong.
And-- How far along are you towards getting the LH and EZK systems ready for Sharktuning? You needed some 1989+ harness pieces plus the code for the '89+ controllers installed to make that work.
-----
A decade or two ago, one of my engineering marketing guys decided to sell a design-build project at a significant discount because we had "done one just like it before". Bob: So all we need to do is change the title blocks on the previous drawings and the name on the headers of all the studies and specs, right? Well, not really, because when you change one part of a "system" you need to examine the effects on the rest of the system. Piping design is a compromise, where bends, elbows, reducers, T's and really anything that isn't a straight section of pipe dumping directly into the [whatever] has to be modeled and evaluated. In most industrial situations, we are constrained to ortho pipe runs, with no "bends" or other stuff' Pipe runners go straight up or straight down, left or right, front or rear. Virtually no slopes. Want to change just one piece? You get to re-model the whole system. Think of it as FIE, or an iterative process where you determine in advance what each critical parameter or performance limitation you are ready to accept as OK. Now move from the model with all its available iterative capability, and plan on building and testing each iteration. Then testing each iteration on a dyno. Modify or re-fabricate and test/evaluate again until you either run out of time and money, or decide that it will be "good enough" as it is at that point.
FWIW, it would be cheaper to just buy good race tires for the car you have.
Somehow there seems to be a tone to your posts that says that once some engineering has been done for engine A, or engine F or engine C, it should be easily transferable to engine P. Use your imagination and decide how well that would work on the opposite sides of the heads -- put the A-M, F or C exhaust headers on the P engine mounted in your car. You'll want at least two boxes of offset studs for the heads, with nuts that have an OD smaller than the ID. Even then it won't fit and won't work. Different exhaust valve sizes and port dimensions, cam timing, rest-of-the-exhaust... and different displacement. Except for those things, it should fit right up and work as it was designed for the A-M, F or C engines, right?
Remind me why "adapting" the A-M, F or C intake system would be any different.
Did "we" (same as: Mark) find a suitable S4 coffee-table engine with heads for design and initial fitment? A way to computer-model the flows and velocities through the individual runners at various loads and engine RPM's? Got thermal expansion and subsequent misalignment built into your plan?
Greg and the group have outlined some of the many serious requirements for his intakes. Fuel system upgrade that you discount even after being told that the stock system doesn't work -- you blow that off with a statement that the stock system is good for XX horsepower so it should be fine. That theory has already been proven wrong.
And-- How far along are you towards getting the LH and EZK systems ready for Sharktuning? You needed some 1989+ harness pieces plus the code for the '89+ controllers installed to make that work.
-----
A decade or two ago, one of my engineering marketing guys decided to sell a design-build project at a significant discount because we had "done one just like it before". Bob: So all we need to do is change the title blocks on the previous drawings and the name on the headers of all the studies and specs, right? Well, not really, because when you change one part of a "system" you need to examine the effects on the rest of the system. Piping design is a compromise, where bends, elbows, reducers, T's and really anything that isn't a straight section of pipe dumping directly into the [whatever] has to be modeled and evaluated. In most industrial situations, we are constrained to ortho pipe runs, with no "bends" or other stuff' Pipe runners go straight up or straight down, left or right, front or rear. Virtually no slopes. Want to change just one piece? You get to re-model the whole system. Think of it as FIE, or an iterative process where you determine in advance what each critical parameter or performance limitation you are ready to accept as OK. Now move from the model with all its available iterative capability, and plan on building and testing each iteration. Then testing each iteration on a dyno. Modify or re-fabricate and test/evaluate again until you either run out of time and money, or decide that it will be "good enough" as it is at that point.
FWIW, it would be cheaper to just buy good race tires for the car you have.
04-14-2016, 08:37 PM
#708
Rennlist Member
MK:
Somehow there seems to be a tone to your posts that says that once some engineering has been done for engine A, or engine F or engine C, it should be easily transferable to engine P. Use your imagination and decide how well that would work on the opposite sides of the heads -- put the A-M, F or C exhaust headers on the P engine mounted in your car. You'll want at least two boxes of offset studs for the heads, with nuts that have an OD smaller than the ID. Even then it won't fit and won't work. Different exhaust valve sizes and port dimensions, cam timing, rest-of-the-exhaust... and different displacement. Except for those things, it should fit right up and work as it was designed for the A-M, F or C engines, right?
Remind me why "adapting" the A-M, F or C intake system would be any different.
Did "we" (same as: Mark) find a suitable S4 coffee-table engine with heads for design and initial fitment? A way to computer-model the flows and velocities through the individual runners at various loads and engine RPM's? Got thermal expansion and subsequent misalignment built into your plan?
Greg and the group have outlined some of the many serious requirements for his intakes. Fuel system upgrade that you discount even after being told that the stock system doesn't work -- you blow that off with a statement that the stock system is good for XX horsepower so it should be fine. That theory has already been proven wrong.
And-- How far along are you towards getting the LH and EZK systems ready for Sharktuning? You needed some 1989+ harness pieces plus the code for the '89+ controllers installed to make that work.
-----
A decade or two ago, one of my engineering marketing guys decided to sell a design-build project at a significant discount because we had "done one just like it before". Bob: So all we need to do is change the title blocks on the previous drawings and the name on the headers of all the studies and specs, right? Well, not really, because when you change one part of a "system" you need to examine the effects on the rest of the system. Piping design is a compromise, where bends, elbows, reducers, T's and really anything that isn't a straight section of pipe dumping directly into the [whatever] has to be modeled and evaluated. In most industrial situations, we are constrained to ortho pipe runs, with no "bends" or other stuff' Pipe runners go straight up or straight down, left or right, front or rear. Virtually no slopes. Want to change just one piece? You get to re-model the whole system. Think of it as FIE, or an iterative process where you determine in advance what each critical parameter or performance limitation you are ready to accept as OK. Now move from the model with all its available iterative capability, and plan on building and testing each iteration. Then testing each iteration on a dyno. Modify or re-fabricate and test/evaluate again until you either run out of time and money, or decide that it will be "good enough" as it is at that point.
FWIW, it would be cheaper to just buy good race tires for the car you have.
Somehow there seems to be a tone to your posts that says that once some engineering has been done for engine A, or engine F or engine C, it should be easily transferable to engine P. Use your imagination and decide how well that would work on the opposite sides of the heads -- put the A-M, F or C exhaust headers on the P engine mounted in your car. You'll want at least two boxes of offset studs for the heads, with nuts that have an OD smaller than the ID. Even then it won't fit and won't work. Different exhaust valve sizes and port dimensions, cam timing, rest-of-the-exhaust... and different displacement. Except for those things, it should fit right up and work as it was designed for the A-M, F or C engines, right?
Remind me why "adapting" the A-M, F or C intake system would be any different.
Did "we" (same as: Mark) find a suitable S4 coffee-table engine with heads for design and initial fitment? A way to computer-model the flows and velocities through the individual runners at various loads and engine RPM's? Got thermal expansion and subsequent misalignment built into your plan?
Greg and the group have outlined some of the many serious requirements for his intakes. Fuel system upgrade that you discount even after being told that the stock system doesn't work -- you blow that off with a statement that the stock system is good for XX horsepower so it should be fine. That theory has already been proven wrong.
And-- How far along are you towards getting the LH and EZK systems ready for Sharktuning? You needed some 1989+ harness pieces plus the code for the '89+ controllers installed to make that work.
-----
A decade or two ago, one of my engineering marketing guys decided to sell a design-build project at a significant discount because we had "done one just like it before". Bob: So all we need to do is change the title blocks on the previous drawings and the name on the headers of all the studies and specs, right? Well, not really, because when you change one part of a "system" you need to examine the effects on the rest of the system. Piping design is a compromise, where bends, elbows, reducers, T's and really anything that isn't a straight section of pipe dumping directly into the [whatever] has to be modeled and evaluated. In most industrial situations, we are constrained to ortho pipe runs, with no "bends" or other stuff' Pipe runners go straight up or straight down, left or right, front or rear. Virtually no slopes. Want to change just one piece? You get to re-model the whole system. Think of it as FIE, or an iterative process where you determine in advance what each critical parameter or performance limitation you are ready to accept as OK. Now move from the model with all its available iterative capability, and plan on building and testing each iteration. Then testing each iteration on a dyno. Modify or re-fabricate and test/evaluate again until you either run out of time and money, or decide that it will be "good enough" as it is at that point.
FWIW, it would be cheaper to just buy good race tires for the car you have.
As far as the intake goes... there a lot of intakes that can be interchangeable and provide good gains. they might not be perfect, but most might be better than the stock stuff. I think the intake will work well, but the adaptation is the key
and i already got the new race tires!
back to the question.... there are a lot of reasons why the sytem will work and i think the fuel issues have been discussed. i have seen any of those issues up to 75psi on the S4 and down to 43psi on the 30lbs injectors at 375rwhp. there is no indication that the fuel system will have any challenges running up to 450rwhp. Devek did it without much issue using the stock stuff , bolted to cams, big valves and the 6.4 liter.
the intake will bolt on an work, maybe not as welll as the CF intake worked , but i would say half as well. maybe not optimal, but im sure much better than stock. i might have to do this, just to prove it can be done!
04-14-2016, 08:51 PM
#709
Rennlist Member
I know you think it would work well. It's your money and your time, so do what you want. Before you go this route, don't you think the fact the AM motor has variable valve timing might affect the optimal design of its intake? The 928 doesn't have variable valve timing and so, unlike the AM motor, it's intake valve opening cannot be changed to take advantage of the changes in the pressure wave as RPMs change.
04-14-2016, 08:53 PM
#710
Rennlist Member
I know you think it would work well. It's your money and your time, so do what you want. Before you go this route, don't you think the fact the AM motor has variable valve timing might affect the optimal design of its intake? The 928 doesn't have variable valve timing and so, unlike the AM motor, it's intake valve opening cannot be changed to take advantage of the changes in the pressure wave as RPMs change.
just like the CF intake tossed all that benefit out.
we are taking pure HP and area under the HP cuve here... the bigger intake will work.. the ONLY variable will be will it fit. lots of engines of varied styles use this kind and dimension'ed intake.
its why the CF intake got near 80hp on mark and Joes car.
04-14-2016, 09:37 PM
#711
Former Sponsor
I have a LOT of work to do , granted! the ecu stuff... yes.. still need to do that.
As far as the intake goes... there a lot of intakes that can be interchangeable and provide good gains. they might not be perfect, but most might be better than the stock stuff. I think the intake will work well, but the adaptation is the key
and i already got the new race tires!
back to the question.... there are a lot of reasons why the sytem will work and i think the fuel issues have been discussed. i have seen any of those issues up to 75psi on the S4 and down to 43psi on the 30lbs injectors at 375rwhp. there is no indication that the fuel system will have any challenges running up to 450rwhp. Devek did it without much issue using the stock stuff , bolted to cams, big valves and the 6.4 liter.
the intake will bolt on an work, maybe not as welll as the CF intake worked , but i would say half as well. maybe not optimal, but im sure much better than stock. i might have to do this, just to prove it can be done!
As far as the intake goes... there a lot of intakes that can be interchangeable and provide good gains. they might not be perfect, but most might be better than the stock stuff. I think the intake will work well, but the adaptation is the key
and i already got the new race tires!
back to the question.... there are a lot of reasons why the sytem will work and i think the fuel issues have been discussed. i have seen any of those issues up to 75psi on the S4 and down to 43psi on the 30lbs injectors at 375rwhp. there is no indication that the fuel system will have any challenges running up to 450rwhp. Devek did it without much issue using the stock stuff , bolted to cams, big valves and the 6.4 liter.
the intake will bolt on an work, maybe not as welll as the CF intake worked , but i would say half as well. maybe not optimal, but im sure much better than stock. i might have to do this, just to prove it can be done!
Let's not take "marketing" and turn it into reality.
I don't think anyone, except Devek, ever measured one of his "450rwhp" engines....
There's not a snowball's chance in hell that he made anywhere near 450rwhp with a stock intake....absolutely, completely, not physically possible.
And I've had two of his "450rwhp" engines apart....and the intakes were untouched. Yes, they did have big valves stuffed into the heads (which flowed significantly less air that stock heads.) The only thing that was "trick" was the 13.0 compression ratio.....and, of course the lack of a key in the oil pump drive gear....and, of course, the one with silicon beads in the intake.
04-14-2016, 10:01 PM
#712
Former Sponsor
Although I can barely stand to admit it...
I'm totally with Mark, on this one. I can't see a single reason the SM intake won't work and perform well on a 928 engine...if he can get it adapted in a reasonable fashion.
That cross section engine, with the chrome camshafts, is pure art!
Getting a throttle body onto it, getting all the pieces required to make it run, and getting it tuned will be really enlightening and entertaining to follow. If you look at how much band width just the day dreaming of using this manifold has used up, think about how many pages actually doing it will take up!
No one here will have to buy a book to read for the next year!
Encourage him....do not discourage!
I'm totally with Mark, on this one. I can't see a single reason the SM intake won't work and perform well on a 928 engine...if he can get it adapted in a reasonable fashion.
That cross section engine, with the chrome camshafts, is pure art!
Getting a throttle body onto it, getting all the pieces required to make it run, and getting it tuned will be really enlightening and entertaining to follow. If you look at how much band width just the day dreaming of using this manifold has used up, think about how many pages actually doing it will take up!
No one here will have to buy a book to read for the next year!
Encourage him....do not discourage!
04-15-2016, 09:28 AM
#714
Former Sponsor
04-15-2016, 12:39 PM
#716
Rennlist Member
Although I can barely stand to admit it...
I'm totally with Mark, on this one. I can't see a single reason the SM intake won't work and perform well on a 928 engine...if he can get it adapted in a reasonable fashion.
That cross section engine, with the chrome camshafts, is pure art!
Getting a throttle body onto it, getting all the pieces required to make it run, and getting it tuned will be really enlightening and entertaining to follow. If you look at how much band width just the day dreaming of using this manifold has used up, think about how many pages actually doing it will take up!
No one here will have to buy a book to read for the next year!
Encourage him....do not discourage!
I'm totally with Mark, on this one. I can't see a single reason the SM intake won't work and perform well on a 928 engine...if he can get it adapted in a reasonable fashion.
That cross section engine, with the chrome camshafts, is pure art!
Getting a throttle body onto it, getting all the pieces required to make it run, and getting it tuned will be really enlightening and entertaining to follow. If you look at how much band width just the day dreaming of using this manifold has used up, think about how many pages actually doing it will take up!
No one here will have to buy a book to read for the next year!
Encourage him....do not discourage!
I really believe it would work... .......... and i also think just slapping on the TB, and maf on the end, and the car would be running well the first day! probably perfectly as what i have now is set up for 430rwhp, not 375rwhp as i have today.
BUT, reality is sinking in... I cant do it... your welder is busy with your stuff.. maybe ill just wait for one of your intakes!
because in the end, that will be easier, and probably not cost as much or more in the end when everything im thinking of doing is taken in consideration. as much as i would hate to admit it, that probably is the truth. 
So, if there is a artful welder out there that wants to try it... has a top end of the block , a couple of dummy heads... ill send you the AM intake (and it is a piece of artwork). if not.. hmmmmm maybe ill still get it for my garage wall.
04-15-2016, 12:40 PM
#717
Rennlist Member
04-15-2016, 01:23 PM
#718
Rennlist Member
has anyone really just took the S4 intake an really hogged out the runners? not just a extrude hone, but took a grinder to it and bored the thing out in a major way? maybe instead of spacers on the sides, we need some large domed covers?
i would hate to do this to the holbert manifold, so can you grind as easy on the stock S4 manifold? if so, anyone got one for sale. that might be an experiement that i could handle!
i would hate to do this to the holbert manifold, so can you grind as easy on the stock S4 manifold? if so, anyone got one for sale. that might be an experiement that i could handle!
04-15-2016, 02:30 PM
#719
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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The year is 1980. Individual throttles. Fairly short intakes tuned for 485 hp @ 10750 rpm from 3.0 liter.
Quite large diameter header pipes for the engine size.
Åke
Quite large diameter header pipes for the engine size.
Åke
Last edited by Strosek Ultra; 04-16-2016 at 04:49 AM.
04-15-2016, 03:31 PM
#720
Chronic Tool Dropper
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i was picturing all the welding and fitting... using a top half engine block and dummy heads.... the hacking off of the legs.. probably at the plennum due to the amount of angle and spacing needed to make it fit, could be done, but it would be a huge job.
I really believe it would work... .......... and i also think just slapping on the TB, and maf on the end, and the car would be running well the first day! probably perfectly as what i have now is set up for 430rwhp, not 375rwhp as i have today.
BUT, reality is sinking in... I cant do it... your welder is busy with your stuff.. maybe ill just wait for one of your intakes! because in the end, that will be easier, and probably not cost as much or more in the end when everything im thinking of doing is taken in consideration. as much as i would hate to admit it, that probably is the truth.
So, if there is a artful welder out there that wants to try it... has a top end of the block , a couple of dummy heads... ill send you the AM intake (and it is a piece of artwork). if not.. hmmmmm maybe ill still get it for my garage wall.
I really believe it would work... .......... and i also think just slapping on the TB, and maf on the end, and the car would be running well the first day! probably perfectly as what i have now is set up for 430rwhp, not 375rwhp as i have today.
BUT, reality is sinking in... I cant do it... your welder is busy with your stuff.. maybe ill just wait for one of your intakes!
because in the end, that will be easier, and probably not cost as much or more in the end when everything im thinking of doing is taken in consideration. as much as i would hate to admit it, that probably is the truth. So, if there is a artful welder out there that wants to try it... has a top end of the block , a couple of dummy heads... ill send you the AM intake (and it is a piece of artwork). if not.. hmmmmm maybe ill still get it for my garage wall.
Take a hard look at the A-M manifold, and consider cutting the runners off just below the floor of the plenum, all in one plane. Leave enough "stub" sticking out to support a pair of flat flanges. Have the flanges welded to the intake, then cut flat after welding. A second mating flange for each side, identical to the one you welded to the plenum but with bores to match the A-M runners, will be the top plate on your adapter, with grooves on the mating faces for o-rings of course.
From that point, your task is to figure out how to get from the plate you made with the A-M runner openings to Hans' mounting flanges for the 928 heads. Your fabricator can do the initial fit-up and tack things while assembled, then unbolt the pieces from the heads and the plenum for full access and finish welding (or gluing...).
You are obviously space-constrained vertically by the water bridge, the hood, the crossbar, and the floor of the valley. Remember all the stuff that "lives" under the intake, including the oil vent hoses, idle air controller and such. You'll need to figure out how to plumb all that stuff in the available space.
Hans has the fuel rails that fit on his flanges and use available injectors and seals, so you won't need to engineer at least that part of the fuel system. But you will need to work out the pumps and dampers, the return system and a fuel cooler to work well with the batch-fire injection. Or move to another engine management package with sequential-fired injection, so you don't have the hard pressure waves that come with opening and closing all eight injectors as one.
You will want to add EGT probes to individual exhaust runners, connected to your data-logger, and at least one more oxy sensor to guide you as you work to balance the effects of uneven airflow to the cylinders. Another reason to upgrade the engine management. Dump the MAF system for MAP and charge temp system, and one less component to try and fit up on the air side. You'll need to locate and mount/adapt a throttle body big enough for your stroker at full song. And the rest of the air intake plumbing/filters/linkages/etc.
Once you have the runner "adapters" made, you can move on to a plenum box with the same flange setup, and the ability to fab and fit different horns inside for different-sized engines and different uses. Makes it a marketable "fitzall" intake, really. Plus all that other stuff...