Gain 100HP with an intake manifold change?? - Cross post from Ferrari Chat
04-12-2016, 01:40 AM
#601
Nordschleife Master
04-12-2016, 04:36 AM
#602
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Mostly in my workshop located in Sweden.
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The hood on the blue car will allow about two inches of extra room.
Åke
04-12-2016, 10:41 AM
#603
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
04-12-2016, 12:43 PM
#607
Rennlist Member
thick enough
i think you need to close something, nothing more!
that looks awesome!
most of the issue is centered around optimizing air flow and reducing restrictions. if the 4.3 or 4.7 liter intake can create flow patterns and characcteristics for the mass flow to support 450hp, it will work for the lower speed flow but same mass flow. again, in doing some crude measurements, this intake is almost identical as far as dimensions to the mustang intake, which supports the 5 liter engine, and that is stock'ish 450rwhp..... not to mention the same intake on the mustangs that support the 500hp engine wich is also used on the 5 liter cobra. (boss 302 uses the AMv8 like intake)
so, yes, im pretty confident that if it could be welded up and made to work, there woudl be HUGE gains over the stock S4 intake.. but thats a big if.
Simple....it is not![/QUOTE]
i think you need to close something, nothing more!
so, yes, im pretty confident that if it could be welded up and made to work, there woudl be HUGE gains over the stock S4 intake.. but thats a big if.
Simple....it is not![/QUOTE]
04-12-2016, 12:44 PM
#608
Rennlist Member
First off , world of respect for what you are doing (both design and fabricating)
disclamier... im just the idea guy here and am good at one thing on car /engine building, bolting things together and understanding how things work.
I hear your cautions, but the first things that come to mind, are that Anderson's and Fan's car had the stock MAF. they stuck it in a PVC pipe 4" , and it worked fine. no problem maxing it out using the stock stuff, ecus, and the standard 30lb to 30 + lb injectors. ALSO, they made 500rwhp hp both with out any real tuning. as you remember, they tried the DAS box tuning and it didnt do very much. stock worked best for them. thats 500rwhp, im only looking for 430rwhp with out the use of the 968valves or hotter cam. which is the only difference between theirs and my engine now Personally, i (and others) think the 30lb injectors on my car now ,are too large. i agree and think the 24lbsers would work better and just kick up the pressure to the more effective, 50 to 65lb range. (another story)
I also agree that its a crapshoot to think that i can use all the stock stuff . fuel rails, regulators, dampers as welll as the throttle mechanism .. but if you remember, Mark and Joe also used the stock mechanism , with pulleys to the dual TB set up. i think my idea of the AMV8 set up, would only have one throttle body and be very easy to actuate it with the stock cables and pulleys as it would be near the back of the engine compartment too.
the real question would be , can the stock rails fit on to the short manifold area as they do on the stock manifold? i think it should as the AMv8 manifold is very narrow and would be centered more and out of the way.
so, if mechanically it fits, i think functionally it will be fine too. (HUGE "IF", i know and appreciate your points)
i hear you with the fuel demand concerns and fuel heating, but from what i saw, on the stock S4, running 70psi and 335rwhp out of 19lb injectors, and rich mixtures out of the 30lb injectors and 375rwhp at 44psi, i think there is plenty of room to support 430rwhp. its proven to be able to return fuel at low fuel load demands without heating fuel issues , and im running the big injectors now as it is. maybe my regulator is better than what Rob was using. dont know.
The point is, im using the larger injectors. using the stock ECU and fuel maps with only adjusting pressure.. its how is been done before so i dont see that much risk or issues, especially having a goal of near 60hp less hp than mark and Joe had using the same components.
simple... ???? no way.. i get it... possible....? hmmm maybe..... trust me .. I hear your concerns and warnings..
disclamier... im just the idea guy here and am good at one thing on car /engine building, bolting things together and understanding how things work.
I hear your cautions, but the first things that come to mind, are that Anderson's and Fan's car had the stock MAF. they stuck it in a PVC pipe 4" , and it worked fine. no problem maxing it out using the stock stuff, ecus, and the standard 30lb to 30 + lb injectors. ALSO, they made 500rwhp hp both with out any real tuning. as you remember, they tried the DAS box tuning and it didnt do very much. stock worked best for them. thats 500rwhp, im only looking for 430rwhp with out the use of the 968valves or hotter cam. which is the only difference between theirs and my engine now Personally, i (and others) think the 30lb injectors on my car now ,are too large. i agree and think the 24lbsers would work better and just kick up the pressure to the more effective, 50 to 65lb range. (another story)
I also agree that its a crapshoot to think that i can use all the stock stuff . fuel rails, regulators, dampers as welll as the throttle mechanism .. but if you remember, Mark and Joe also used the stock mechanism , with pulleys to the dual TB set up. i think my idea of the AMV8 set up, would only have one throttle body and be very easy to actuate it with the stock cables and pulleys as it would be near the back of the engine compartment too.
the real question would be , can the stock rails fit on to the short manifold area as they do on the stock manifold? i think it should as the AMv8 manifold is very narrow and would be centered more and out of the way.
so, if mechanically it fits, i think functionally it will be fine too. (HUGE "IF", i know and appreciate your points)
i hear you with the fuel demand concerns and fuel heating, but from what i saw, on the stock S4, running 70psi and 335rwhp out of 19lb injectors, and rich mixtures out of the 30lb injectors and 375rwhp at 44psi, i think there is plenty of room to support 430rwhp. its proven to be able to return fuel at low fuel load demands without heating fuel issues , and im running the big injectors now as it is. maybe my regulator is better than what Rob was using. dont know.
The point is, im using the larger injectors. using the stock ECU and fuel maps with only adjusting pressure.. its how is been done before so i dont see that much risk or issues, especially having a goal of near 60hp less hp than mark and Joe had using the same components.
simple... ???? no way.. i get it... possible....? hmmm maybe..... trust me .. I hear your concerns and warnings..
Could be....give it a try!
Just remember that once the raw intake manifold is done, there's an entire list of other things that need to be made to work, also.
It seems so simple, until you actually start having to design and fabricate all the pieces. I'm guessing that 2/3 of the cost for my manifold will be the actual manifold. The rest will be consumed by throttle linkage, fuel rails, injectors, dampers, fuel pressure regulator, fuel pump, wiring, plumbing, etc.
And then there's the whole tuning thing to optimize all the changes. (Keep in mind that adding 50 more horsepower to your stroker will maximize the stock air flow meter.)
Yes, I'm sure you will say "I'll just use what I have." But the reality is way different. You need bigger injectors to make more horsepower. That requires more fuel delivery. More fuel delivery requires different fuel pressure regulator to be able to return the excess fuel at low loads (or suffer the problem with overheating the fuel....this Forum is loaded with posts from people that have had this problem, but have no clue why.) Now that the injectors are much larger, there are brand new problems with the pressure waves caused by batch firing the injectors (Rob Edward's engine "shook" the fuel lines so much that it concerned us that the fuel lines were up to the task of containing the surges.....and we were forced to make some changes.)
Simple?
I'm a far cry from a novice at this stuff....I can design and fabricate virtually anything, without leaving my shop. Note that I'm three years into this project. Granted, I need to make a living and can't devote every minute to this....but I've personally got hundreds of hours into this project. And the piles of scrap attempts and scrap pieces would amaze everyone.
Simple....it is not!
Just remember that once the raw intake manifold is done, there's an entire list of other things that need to be made to work, also.
It seems so simple, until you actually start having to design and fabricate all the pieces. I'm guessing that 2/3 of the cost for my manifold will be the actual manifold. The rest will be consumed by throttle linkage, fuel rails, injectors, dampers, fuel pressure regulator, fuel pump, wiring, plumbing, etc.
And then there's the whole tuning thing to optimize all the changes. (Keep in mind that adding 50 more horsepower to your stroker will maximize the stock air flow meter.)
Yes, I'm sure you will say "I'll just use what I have." But the reality is way different. You need bigger injectors to make more horsepower. That requires more fuel delivery. More fuel delivery requires different fuel pressure regulator to be able to return the excess fuel at low loads (or suffer the problem with overheating the fuel....this Forum is loaded with posts from people that have had this problem, but have no clue why.) Now that the injectors are much larger, there are brand new problems with the pressure waves caused by batch firing the injectors (Rob Edward's engine "shook" the fuel lines so much that it concerned us that the fuel lines were up to the task of containing the surges.....and we were forced to make some changes.)
Simple?
I'm a far cry from a novice at this stuff....I can design and fabricate virtually anything, without leaving my shop. Note that I'm three years into this project. Granted, I need to make a living and can't devote every minute to this....but I've personally got hundreds of hours into this project. And the piles of scrap attempts and scrap pieces would amaze everyone.
Simple....it is not!
04-12-2016, 12:51 PM
#609
Rennlist Member
part one is the challenge, however, i think the Fi system of the stock 928 can handle this task, easily! fit it? hmmm thats the real challenge, but say it all fits.... stock fuel rails on stock flanges that have been welded to connective runners to the AMV8 intake, then tuning is already half way there with the stock stuff. get the mixtures right just as Joe and Mark did, in a very crude way, (fuel pressure alone) and off to the races!
04-12-2016, 02:06 PM
#610
Former Sponsor
First off , world of respect for what you are doing (both design and fabricating)
disclamier... im just the idea guy here and am good at one thing on car /engine building, bolting things together and understanding how things work.
I hear your cautions, but the first things that come to mind, are that Anderson's and Fan's car had the stock MAF. they stuck it in a PVC pipe 4" , and it worked fine. no problem maxing it out using the stock stuff, ecus, and the standard 30lb to 30 + lb injectors. ALSO, they made 500rwhp hp both with out any real tuning. as you remember, they tried the DAS box tuning and it didnt do very much. stock worked best for them. thats 500rwhp, im only looking for 430rwhp with out the use of the 968valves or hotter cam. which is the only difference between theirs and my engine now Personally, i (and others) think the 30lb injectors on my car now ,are too large. i agree and think the 24lbsers would work better and just kick up the pressure to the more effective, 50 to 65lb range. (another story)
I also agree that its a crapshoot to think that i can use all the stock stuff . fuel rails, regulators, dampers as welll as the throttle mechanism .. but if you remember, Mark and Joe also used the stock mechanism , with pulleys to the dual TB set up. i think my idea of the AMV8 set up, would only have one throttle body and be very easy to actuate it with the stock cables and pulleys as it would be near the back of the engine compartment too.
the real question would be , can the stock rails fit on to the short manifold area as they do on the stock manifold? i think it should as the AMv8 manifold is very narrow and would be centered more and out of the way.
so, if mechanically it fits, i think functionally it will be fine too. (HUGE "IF", i know and appreciate your points)
i hear you with the fuel demand concerns and fuel heating, but from what i saw, on the stock S4, running 70psi and 335rwhp out of 19lb injectors, and rich mixtures out of the 30lb injectors and 375rwhp at 44psi, i think there is plenty of room to support 430rwhp. its proven to be able to return fuel at low fuel load demands without heating fuel issues , and im running the big injectors now as it is. maybe my regulator is better than what Rob was using. dont know.
The point is, im using the larger injectors. using the stock ECU and fuel maps with only adjusting pressure.. its how is been done before so i dont see that much risk or issues, especially having a goal of near 60hp less hp than mark and Joe had using the same components.
simple... ???? no way.. i get it... possible....? hmmm maybe..... trust me .. I hear your concerns and warnings..
disclamier... im just the idea guy here and am good at one thing on car /engine building, bolting things together and understanding how things work.
I hear your cautions, but the first things that come to mind, are that Anderson's and Fan's car had the stock MAF. they stuck it in a PVC pipe 4" , and it worked fine. no problem maxing it out using the stock stuff, ecus, and the standard 30lb to 30 + lb injectors. ALSO, they made 500rwhp hp both with out any real tuning. as you remember, they tried the DAS box tuning and it didnt do very much. stock worked best for them. thats 500rwhp, im only looking for 430rwhp with out the use of the 968valves or hotter cam. which is the only difference between theirs and my engine now Personally, i (and others) think the 30lb injectors on my car now ,are too large. i agree and think the 24lbsers would work better and just kick up the pressure to the more effective, 50 to 65lb range. (another story)
I also agree that its a crapshoot to think that i can use all the stock stuff . fuel rails, regulators, dampers as welll as the throttle mechanism .. but if you remember, Mark and Joe also used the stock mechanism , with pulleys to the dual TB set up. i think my idea of the AMV8 set up, would only have one throttle body and be very easy to actuate it with the stock cables and pulleys as it would be near the back of the engine compartment too.
the real question would be , can the stock rails fit on to the short manifold area as they do on the stock manifold? i think it should as the AMv8 manifold is very narrow and would be centered more and out of the way.
so, if mechanically it fits, i think functionally it will be fine too. (HUGE "IF", i know and appreciate your points)
i hear you with the fuel demand concerns and fuel heating, but from what i saw, on the stock S4, running 70psi and 335rwhp out of 19lb injectors, and rich mixtures out of the 30lb injectors and 375rwhp at 44psi, i think there is plenty of room to support 430rwhp. its proven to be able to return fuel at low fuel load demands without heating fuel issues , and im running the big injectors now as it is. maybe my regulator is better than what Rob was using. dont know.
The point is, im using the larger injectors. using the stock ECU and fuel maps with only adjusting pressure.. its how is been done before so i dont see that much risk or issues, especially having a goal of near 60hp less hp than mark and Joe had using the same components.
simple... ???? no way.. i get it... possible....? hmmm maybe..... trust me .. I hear your concerns and warnings..
To say that Mark and Joseph's manifolds and results were crude would be a huge understatement. To say that both of those systems had only minor issues would be inaccurate. "Tuned" would also be very inaccurate....let's just say that the gigantic injectors dumped enough fuel to "protect" the engine most of the time.
I've got a standing order from Joseph for two of my new manifolds.
That, alone, should tell you quite a bit.
04-12-2016, 02:27 PM
#611
Captain Obvious
Super User
Super User
Mark,
What exactly are you looking for in this thread? Someone to say "I'll build you your intake, the way you want it" and then you'll pay them if the part performs to your standard but the price better not be more than $35hondas. Am I off?
What exactly are you looking for in this thread? Someone to say "I'll build you your intake, the way you want it" and then you'll pay them if the part performs to your standard but the price better not be more than $35hondas. Am I off?
04-12-2016, 02:54 PM
#612
Rennlist Member
One needs to be careful to judge how things work from afar....being on the end of a grapevine isn't the same as being at the roots.
To say that Mark and Joseph's manifolds and results were crude would be a huge understatement. To say that both of those systems had only minor issues would be inaccurate. "Tuned" would also be very inaccurate....let's just say that the gigantic injectors dumped enough fuel to "protect" the engine most of the time.
I've got a standing order from Joseph for two of my new manifolds.
That, alone, should tell you quite a bit.
To say that Mark and Joseph's manifolds and results were crude would be a huge understatement. To say that both of those systems had only minor issues would be inaccurate. "Tuned" would also be very inaccurate....let's just say that the gigantic injectors dumped enough fuel to "protect" the engine most of the time.
I've got a standing order from Joseph for two of my new manifolds.
That, alone, should tell you quite a bit.
Greg.. I get it... probably more than you give me credit for. that intake..... was a work of art (design wise) but buildwise , it was a nightmare that Mark and you had to live! the things i poke fun at, such as the MAF in a PVC pipe is crude, but effective. heck, if i did that, i would have never heard the end of it!
i know you had 36lb injectors by the time the the CF intake went on. I also saw the fuel curves of the stroker motors with no CF intake making 420hp at 42psi, and the fuel curves were ALL over the map 10s, to 12s..... mine is looking much better than those and that's with my low end knowledge base and technology. the point is, i think with any high flow intake, if i can get the extra 50hp , in fact, not much more than mark and joe were getting from the start, i think the 30lb injectors and the fuel reg will work just fine.
solid . If i can get an AFM Ljet to gain 120hp without any changes but a fuel presure regulator, and keep things sparkly clean as far as safe ratios, i think i can do 50hp with the stuff i have, no?
04-12-2016, 02:58 PM
#613
Rennlist Member
It will be interesting, but I think that ratio is actually higher. Between fuel injectors, fuel rails, line, regulators, dampers, throttle body, linkage, relocated IAC system, sensors, TPS adapters, breather/evacuation system upgrades, and hardware.... I am willing to bet you will get closer to 60/40 if not 50/50. As Greg says, there is a lot of ancillary costs that add up when you take on the project.
Guessing we will know pretty soon though.
Guessing we will know pretty soon though.
Could be....give it a try!
Just remember that once the raw intake manifold is done, there's an entire list of other things that need to be made to work, also.
It seems so simple, until you actually start having to design and fabricate all the pieces. I'm guessing that 2/3 of the cost for my manifold will be the actual manifold. The rest will be consumed by throttle linkage, fuel rails, injectors, dampers, fuel pressure regulator, fuel pump, wiring, plumbing, etc.
And then there's the whole tuning thing to optimize all the changes. (Keep in mind that adding 50 more horsepower to your stroker will maximize the stock air flow meter.)
Yes, I'm sure you will say "I'll just use what I have." But the reality is way different. You need bigger injectors to make more horsepower. That requires more fuel delivery. More fuel delivery requires different fuel pressure regulator to be able to return the excess fuel at low loads (or suffer the problem with overheating the fuel....this Forum is loaded with posts from people that have had this problem, but have no clue why.) Now that the injectors are much larger, there are brand new problems with the pressure waves caused by batch firing the injectors (Rob Edward's engine "shook" the fuel lines so much that it concerned us that the fuel lines were up to the task of containing the surges.....and we were forced to make some changes.)
Simple?
I'm a far cry from a novice at this stuff....I can design and fabricate virtually anything, without leaving my shop. Note that I'm three years into this project. Granted, I need to make a living and can't devote every minute to this....but I've personally got hundreds of hours into this project. And the piles of scrap attempts and scrap pieces would amaze everyone.
Simple....it is not!
Just remember that once the raw intake manifold is done, there's an entire list of other things that need to be made to work, also.
It seems so simple, until you actually start having to design and fabricate all the pieces. I'm guessing that 2/3 of the cost for my manifold will be the actual manifold. The rest will be consumed by throttle linkage, fuel rails, injectors, dampers, fuel pressure regulator, fuel pump, wiring, plumbing, etc.
And then there's the whole tuning thing to optimize all the changes. (Keep in mind that adding 50 more horsepower to your stroker will maximize the stock air flow meter.)
Yes, I'm sure you will say "I'll just use what I have." But the reality is way different. You need bigger injectors to make more horsepower. That requires more fuel delivery. More fuel delivery requires different fuel pressure regulator to be able to return the excess fuel at low loads (or suffer the problem with overheating the fuel....this Forum is loaded with posts from people that have had this problem, but have no clue why.) Now that the injectors are much larger, there are brand new problems with the pressure waves caused by batch firing the injectors (Rob Edward's engine "shook" the fuel lines so much that it concerned us that the fuel lines were up to the task of containing the surges.....and we were forced to make some changes.)
Simple?
I'm a far cry from a novice at this stuff....I can design and fabricate virtually anything, without leaving my shop. Note that I'm three years into this project. Granted, I need to make a living and can't devote every minute to this....but I've personally got hundreds of hours into this project. And the piles of scrap attempts and scrap pieces would amaze everyone.
Simple....it is not!
04-12-2016, 02:59 PM
#614
Rennlist Member
this is a discussion , with roots to of the benefits of a custom intake that was on the Ferrari, not morphing into a discussion about intake possibilities for the 928, for which my idea is one. could be a long shot, but its one. i want to see if it can be built, as i think it would work.... the listers are providing the caveats, which i appreciate.
to answer your question, looking for information as im getting a lot here about all the gochas of building such a beast. I have NO problem cutting a check for components to build such an intake. Greg knows I am no threat here, and in fact, airing all the complications of the alternatives, strengthens his value proposition and gives clarity to what really he is doing and the deficiencies of the stock intake.
04-12-2016, 03:02 PM
#615
Rennlist Member
It will be interesting, but I think that ratio is actually higher. Between fuel injectors, fuel rails, line, regulators, dampers, throttle body, linkage, relocated IAC system, sensors, TPS adapters, breather/evacuation system upgrades, and hardware.... I am willing to bet you will get closer to 60/40 if not 50/50. As Greg says, there is a lot of ancillary costs that add up when you take on the project.
Guessing we will know pretty soon though.
Guessing we will know pretty soon though.
if so, then all the stock stuff will work and the only challenge will be simple stuff like the throttle linkage . all the other stuff remains in place.
is the 85 intake made from aluminum or is it like the S4, a magnesium blend? the question is , it woud be a heck of a lot easier to chop up an intake that fits the heads, vs making a new short lower manifold to start. Hey, what about the 968 intake?? Hmmmmmmm?