prescott

Hi folks.

I put new panamera 18 inch 5 spokes with new Continentals on my car last year. All are wearing correctly except the drivers side front which has inner tread wear down to the core in 6000 miles. Like the camber is off.

My main shop attempted to realign but failed, then they wanted to replace all bushings on the car for $15k.....I walked away. Took it to a second shop who says the car is "sagging" and the 18 inch rims are causing the problem. Lots of forum members run these wheels....so it can't be that. Bushings all are ok. Could I just need new shocks to fix this problem?

Thanks!
Brian

Rob Edwards

What are your ride height measurements, all around?

mark kibort

no, its not the shocks.. heck i was driving around on a completly dead shock for many years with no wear effects! that shop is full of BS. inner wear is the car is toe'ed out . simple. they lifted it and then aligned it and when it settles, its toed out by a long shot!! you can measure this yourself very easily with a ruler and a magic marker.

mark points on your driveway using a level or straight edge. front and rear of the tire to the ground. do the same on the other side. measure the distances between the two sets of marks, front and back. if its not 0 or close to 0, you have a problem and i would bet you are near .25 toe'ed out.

let use know. BUT, dont believe that shop.. he is fulll of BS

I run 18" rims, and DOT race rubber on the street!! if anyone would have a problem with a low ride height, it would be me... and there is none. im 110mm in front and 135mm in the rear.

the sagging shock, worn bushing is a guy that doesnt know anything and doesnt want to align it. just go to your local shop that has a hunter machine (tire store) and have them align it , but no raising the car before hand... only rolling back and forth to 0 out the HUNTER machine .

Randy V

Front suspension was not fully settled before performing the last alignment.

James Bailey

The alignment shop lifted the car and that is that.....they set tow with the front end too high simple as that. When they checked it after you notice the wear they lifted it again and when they check the tow it will read correct again BECAUSE it is too high again. Happens far too often.
The alignment shop by NOT knowing ruined your tire !!! You can prove it to them quite easily either by printing out the alignment procedure from the workshop manuals where it discusses using a special tool to pull down the front end to normal ride height or measuring the fender lip to ground before the car goes on a rack and then again after it has been lifted......that difference because the tierods are NOT level is what screws up the tow when the car settles back to it's regular height.

Mrmerlin

were the front lower control arm anchors loosened in recently?

I would also suggest to loosen them then lower the car go for a 2 mile drive then torque them to spec while on the ground then drive the car for 50 miles then take it to get aligned.

NOTE leave the bolts about 1 turn loose,
front anchors 62 ft lbs ,
rear anchors 88 ft/lbs

Oh check the ride height after the 50 miles but before you go see the alignment shop.
If its out of spec then this issue has to be reset before the alignment is performed

hacker-pschorr

Here you go:


-

mark kibort

this is the factory way, but its not an accurate way... BEST way is to have the suspension very settled.... and then as we said, go to the shop and have them put it on a hunter machine.. it will be 100% correct... the pull down technique is pretty hit and miss , especially with an old car with worn parts.

James Bailey

The factory documentation is to PROVE that lifting the car is WRONG !! Means the alignment shop did not do it right.

mark kibort

amen to that..and im sure the "shop" has no CLUE of this process.

I hope he can find a hunter machine and just drive it on up.. get the job done and get his money back from the clowns that screwed it all up.
I know he must be frustrated. i can remember several alignments before i worked on my car, that did the same thing.. one time, it was so off , the wheel would take off running and to to full lock by itself on a u turn! the shop said my frame must have been bent, needed new bushings... etc etc. cracks me up , these bozos at the shops!!

hacker-pschorr

Worn parts? Step 1 of a proper alignment is inspecting all suspension components for wear. Something you cannot do with the suspension loaded and it must be lifted for this.
Why would you be getting an alignment if your suspension is worn out????
Measuring and verifying ride height is part of a full alignment. Even if you don't lift a car, this should still be verified.

Yes I fully understand the reasoning for a "no lift" alignment, but people need to know why this is being recommended and not just blindly following it.

People need to educate themselves on the procedure so they can work with their shop to have it done properly.

My guy has been aligning 928's for over 30 years and he lifted every single one of them, no exceptions (he's never owned a drive on alignment machine...). He follows the WSM and I've never had an improper alignment.

mark kibort

yes, you need to check out worn parts, but i dout even your guy with all his experience can take a lowered 928 with an old suspension set up and use this technique. the problem is, there is a lot of sticktion in many of the old components. things dont move like they should when you pull down the chassis.. in theory it works, but in reality, generally it doesnt. if your guy is that good, great.. but generally, there are not many that can do that kind of alignment.

if you cant do it yourself, having someone check the suspension components. then, drive for a long time.. then have the alignment done.

Randy V

@ kibort

hacker-pschorr

This is like standing on the high dive looking down and realizing there is no water but you are going to jump anyway.

I don't care how stuck the parts are. Any mechanic worth his weight in 15w50 will be able to handle the task at hand if you bring the proper paperwork.

Bottom line....if the suspension is so worn out and stuck it cannot be properly pulled down........TIME TO REPLACE THE WORN OUT AND STUCK PARTS!!!!!!

If you bring a tired old worn out car to him for an alignment he's going to tell you the old worn out parts need to be updated before he will do the alignment.

Any other answer to that scenario is WRONG Mark. You DO NOT align a car with WORN OUT PARTS!!

If you are wondering his experience with lowered / modified cars, he is the former owner and builder (with the help of Turbo Todd) of my 79. If there was a polar opposite to how you do everything, it's him.


Wait...... are you the guy years ago in the e-mail list who claimed worn out ball joints made the car handle better due to increased camber? I bet it was!!!!



Look....for the millionth time...I fully understand and support the "no lift" philosophy...BUT - people need to understand why they are doing this and as you pointed out....maybe get the car inspected first, then go for a road trip.....bring it back and have it aligned.

I also encourage DIY guys like myself to have the car fully inspected at alignment time or just on a regular basis to have a second set of eyes look everything over.

FredR

Brian,

Not quite clear to me the sequence of events here. Plenty of good general advice already offered. As I understand you put on the new wheels without any re- alignment having been done, saw wear and then took it to the alignment shop- what exactly did they do/find/report?

In my opinion front camber does not effect inside edge tyre wear too much, at least not up to minus 3 degrees that is and you cannot get more than that on a stock setup no matter what a dumb *** alignment shop manages to do with incorrect settlement. As Mark says tired shocks do not cause this type of [differential] wear pattern either.

To cause scrub wear the wheel has to be pointing incorrectly due to a toe error. To get one side to wear I would think the problem has to be something worn in the suspension causing one side to be out of whack [toe out]. Now, if there is a toe error, the car tends to take a mid point position in a straight line and this shows as the steering wheel being off centre with no hands on the steering wheel. If you were keeping the steering wheel under pressure such that it is pointing straight ahead in such circumstances that might explain the wear pattern but doing this is counter intuitive and you would be aware of what you are doing.

If something is worn in the suspension then a good alignment shop even a crappy one] should be able to see this on the Hunter machine as they will see inconsistent readings as they try to centralise the settings prior to commencing alignment [just as Hacker says].

Your problem has nothing to do with 18 inch wheels being fitted and most probably nothing to do with suspension sag but note as front suspension progressively sags, the toe gradually changes in the toe out direction.

I recently changed my track rods and the first iteration had the steering wheel at the 11 o'clock position, after adjusting the tie rods to compensate the steering wheel then ran more or less dead centre.

You can also tell if toe is significantly off just by looking along the side of the car from the rear with one eye closed. Start outboard of the car from a low angle and move your point of view inboard until such time as you cannot see the front sidewall of the front wheel and note the position you see this. The correct amount of toe in should see you viewing the line from a position slightly outboard of the rear wheel. If there is too much toe out on one side you should be able to spot the difference relative to the "good side".

Needless to say if something is worn on one side you should be able to feel a wobble on the side that is worn. With the wheels off the ground, If there is a side to side wobble and no top to bottom wobble the problem is likely in the steering. if it is side to side and top to bottom it is likely the wheel bearing, if it is top/bottom only the ball joints would likely be suspect.

Trust the above is helpful and [hopefully] accurate.

Shout if it triggers any thoughts.

Rgds

Fred