When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Please Help!! 88 S4 Timing belt Cam alignment Change question
Hello,
First I will introduce myself:
My name is Manuel and I'm from Puerto Rico and I probably am the youngest 928 owner in Rennlist. Im 19 years old and my car is an 88 928 S4 that belonged to my grandpa. When he died, about 13 years ago, the car was used about 3 times by my grandma but couldn't use it because it brought her many memories of him and always got sad. So she stopped using it for the next 10 years. In that period I tried to start the car every time i could so time sitting didn't damage the engine. Grandpa always said that it was going to be mine and after a couple of years of begging my grandma to give it to me, she finally said yes and the last year and a half I have been slowly fixing her up. After a couple of months of driving and making sure it was good and after falling in love with it after driving, I started reading the great threads full of info and after reading looking instructions for quite some time I decided to do a TB and WP change and ,while doing that, PKTensioner.
Now my question:
I followed the instructions and set the crank at the 45deg mark and locked the engine with flywheel lock tool. I marked the cam sprocket in that position. Now that I am trying to put the TB again the marks don't line up and after checking a few threads, my marks are way off from the other pictures. Please help. Did I do something wrong or broke something? Or is it normal? Here are some pics of the sprocket and crank.
Thanks
It appears that you have removed the belt with the cams 180 degrees from TDC
So first you need to figure out if the damper was correctly positioned.
You should be able to read the numbers while facing the engine and they should not be upsidedown.
NOTE if the damper is correctly positioned then while facing the engine the 45 BTDC should be close to your right hand and the TDC OIT should be close to your left hand.
Your quick check to verify that timing is good will be to see the cam rotors both pointing at the left fenderwell.
Also to verify the correct crank positioning
The keyway will be at 45BTDC when the keyway is at 3 O clock while facing the engine
The crank is at TDC when the keyway is pointing at 4 O clock
Once the keyway is set to 3 O clock then the cams can be turned.
BUT Please dont turn anything till you post pictures of the damper and the cams then we can further advise you on how to proceed
Elsewhere in that thread you may find other useful reference photos.
Is the crank shaft locked? If so, what position. If 45* you should be okay to turn cams.
As Mrmerlin says, don't rotate anything until you sort it out. You have an interference engine with potential for damage from valves and pistons colliding.
As the others have noted, you set the crank to the 45* position, but your camshafts are set at the 180* out of phase position. You should have made one more revolution of the crank before locking it, but no matter now. Since you made your own reference marks with the cam gears, trust your marks, and proceed as follows:
Get a helper to work with threading the new belt.
Start the new belt on the crank, then around the oil gear, then up to the left cam gear.
Have the helper on the right side of the car, and thread the belt under the water pump, then have him hold the belt in tension.
Now, you will use your 17mm wrench to align YOUR painted cam mark to the notch in the back plate, and then thread the belt onto the left cam gear. If you have a couple large black paper clips, or some clothes pins, snap them to the belt and the gear so that cam doesn't move again.
At this point, your timing between the crank and the left cam are where you set them before removing the old belt.
Next, move to the right cam gear, and using the 17mm wrench rotate the right cam gear again to YOUR marks that line up with the notch in the back plate. Trust the marks you made.
Feed the belt onto the right gear as your helper holds tension on the belt and cam gear.
Now, feed it around the new tensioner, and let the tensioner tighten the belt.
Recheck both cams that line up with YOUR marks.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remove all spark plugs.
Remove crank position lock.
Install the front pulley, damper with mark at 45*, large washer and end bolt.
Using a long socket on the crank bolt, and the large ratchet, or bar rotate the engine clockwise SLOWLY, and feel for any unusual resistance. There will be some resistance as the pistons rise and fall and the valves open and close, but there should be no metal to metal stoppage. If you feel too much resistance, stop and investigate.
Rotate completely around to 45* again, and your white cam marks will now be at the bottom.
Rotate until the 0T mark lines up with the timing mark on the engine. Check the cam gears on the back for the little notch lining up with the notch in the cam back plate. If it doesn't appear, rotate the engine one more revolution again to 0T, and check for the cam gear notch lining up with the back plate notch.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If the cam gears, and crank line up with the notches on the back of the gear, you have set it right. If not, and they are still not aligned, lock the crank at 0T, and NOT at 45*. Loosen the tensioner, and move the cam gear so the timing marks line up with the back plate, then tighten the tensioner again.
Rotate crank around twice more, and check the timing again.
yep, just looked like you are off by one revolution and marked the cams..... no problem... just route the belt as you would normally. get someone to hold the driver side cam bolt with a vice grip, not the 17mm wrench, as you can have someone hold positive pressure on the cam gear with the belt around it, plus align it with "your "mark for the 45 degree mark. then, route it under the water pump and over to the other cam..... as well as have the belt around the crank gear and(oil pump). now, you should have tension over the passenger side pulley because its locked into place via the crank gear. the rest is just feeding it around the tensioner and other pulley.
you should be good at that point to then unlock the flywheel and then rotate the crank 360 degrees where the true 45 degree mark will appear. then 45 degrees more you will end up at TDC and the cut out marks on the pulleys will line up with the cut outs on the cam housing flanges.
First point- do not try turn the cam shaft using a 17mm wrench- when you eventually turn the cam you must do so using the bigger hex washer [27mm].
When the cam shaft is moved it should be turned clockwise only as viewed from the front of the engine.
Before you do anything further confirm that the crank remains locked at 45 degrees before TDC and do not remove the lock until you have been advised to do so by the likes of Stan [Mr Merlin].
Do not worry as long as the crank is locked at 45C- even though this is on the wrong stroke- this can be rectified by refitting the belt once the cams have been moved back to the index mark you wisely painted. The tricky bit is that it may be a bit more difficult to stabilise the cam in the correct position to fit the belt whilst the engine is on the incorrect stroke but is not a disaster or anything like it at the moment.
When folks talk about which bank it is better to refer to either 1/4 or 5/8 rather than "left hand" or "right hand". "1/4" and "5/8" are the same no matter which way you look at it.
Take a pick to show the crank position marks it is currently locked at and upload it so that someone can confirm the position is correct. When this has been confirmed you can think about moving the cam back to the correct position per the white marks. You can easily move the 5/8 cam wheel to the correct position by moving it clockwise [as viewed from the front of the car] by the requisite number of teeth. Again only move this when confirmed by the list.
Also take a pic of the 1/4 cam wheel so we can see where that currently lies.
Any doubts do nothing and report back to the list.
Going by the rotor marks on the 5-8 gear, the cam timing has been changed. It looks to be maxed out in the slot which often happens when the belt has been put on a tooth off and the mechanic 'fixes' it without removing the belt.
If you are putting on new gears you'll need a PK32V'r anyway...
If the crank is locked at 45*, there is no need to rotate it since #1 and #6 are both at top at the same time. The cams are what determine 1 or 6, not the crank. Just turn the cams to the #1 marks and continue. It should be 3 teeth off at 45* BTDC as in these photos.
fred, yes! l dont move the cams with the 17mm nut, thats why i suggested the vicegrip.. they can open up to 22mm and grip that large hex washer that looks like a nut. use that to rotate the cam backward to synch up the belt timing. dont worry about the cam and crank position off by one revolution. it doesnt matter. you are fine. just wrap the belt and align it via your marks, torque the crank bolt and then remove the flywheel lock. then, you can rotate the engine with the timing belt timed as it is , via your marks and all should line up fine.
those gears are fine too. sure, they are worn, but not badly coating is missing on the surface, but thats normal for the older cars, so keep an eye on them. check them out the next time you change the belt.
you might want to check the cam timing due to what Porken saw in the maxed out setting of the cam pulley. much easier to check with the porken tool , then setting timing by pulling off the cam covers.
you might want to check the cam timing due to what Porken saw in the maxed out setting of the cam pulley. much easier to check with the porken tool , then setting timing by pulling off the cam covers.
+1 on what Mark says. Get yourself the 32VR kit plus the PK bump stick kit as well. Sounds as though you are going to need it given the position of the cam wheel. I doubt there will be anyone to help you given your location so you need all the help you can get with tools expertise etc.
Great to see you are taking this on- I am very impressed - doubtless your Grandad would be very proud of you and this list will be more than happy to help guide you.
^ Or you could use dial indicators as I showed a couple posts back. It's not that difficult but does require removal of cam covers.
You need WSMs. (Work Shop Manuals)
If you don't have them try >>>here<<< but I don't know if it still works.
If you post pictures of your crank with and/or without harmonic balancer to show rotational position, we can direct you down the shortest path to your goal.
PS: I should point out that the pictures I linked to are of an S3 (86.5) and I'm not certain if S4 is the same but I think it is.
Wow! Thank you all for the quick responses. So I guess I will be buying the cam gears and the oil pump gear too. And PorKen what is a " PK32V'r" and where can I buy it?
Oh and here are some pictures of my car:
The engine bay is a bit ugly but when I finish with all the mechanical stuff, I will be powder coating the intake and cam covers
05-27-2015, 01:11 PM
Please Help!! 88 S4 Timing belt Cam alignment Change question
