Kibort versus...........THE WORLD!!!!
02-04-2014, 04:27 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
And by the way... just watching the video reminds me of all the things ive learned from others on this lest. almost everything I know has come from you guys... Greg included,. Just thought you should know...... (except for the oil and racing stuff, intermediate plate, tire techniques, and chassis set up 
)
where would I be without Gregs modification of the stock pressure plate to handle 400ft-lbs! genius!
) where would I be without Gregs modification of the stock pressure plate to handle 400ft-lbs!
genius!
02-04-2014, 06:29 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Perhaps I need to reword this....seems to be some confusion.
I have not/do not build race engines for Kibort or Colin. I've built 20 years+ of high performance engines for Mark Anderson. It's been my job to design and build these engines to survive with Mark Anderson driving....not Mark Kibort.
I am completely confident that if Mark Anderson can't break it....no one can. I am not convinced that Kibort's car would survive one day, at Willow Springs, with Mark Anderson driving.
What I build is the evolution of lessons learned from working continuously on the 928 engine for over 20 years. Stock street engines, stroker street engines, open road racing engines, and track engines.....of many different varieties. 100's of them....not one, two, or ten. Literally hundreds of 928 engines.
I do not build all engines the same. Different applications require different pieces.
You guys can do whatever you want to do, with your own engines. I've got a pretty good idea of what is required for what I do.
Sorry I waste your time sharing my ideas.
I have not/do not build race engines for Kibort or Colin. I've built 20 years+ of high performance engines for Mark Anderson. It's been my job to design and build these engines to survive with Mark Anderson driving....not Mark Kibort.
I am completely confident that if Mark Anderson can't break it....no one can. I am not convinced that Kibort's car would survive one day, at Willow Springs, with Mark Anderson driving.
What I build is the evolution of lessons learned from working continuously on the 928 engine for over 20 years. Stock street engines, stroker street engines, open road racing engines, and track engines.....of many different varieties. 100's of them....not one, two, or ten. Literally hundreds of 928 engines.
I do not build all engines the same. Different applications require different pieces.
You guys can do whatever you want to do, with your own engines. I've got a pretty good idea of what is required for what I do.
Sorry I waste your time sharing my ideas.
). what both Mark and I have in common, as we both agree, lots of guys can turn a fast lap time, but its those decisions you make in traffic that sets good from the best in the driver catagory. Mark and I beat the snot, together out of a lemons 928, it survived. i ran slightly faster than the group running it, at worst, he and I were equal. Point is, its not the driver punishing the car. as you saw, mark didnt kill this car, Rob was driving when it broke. Gs are Gs. if it has an issue with oiling, find the problem, dont blame the engine. could have been the oil, but more likely that crank scraper or windage tray, whatever it is.
what i do know, is a lot of failures can be attributed to engines with unknown history, and oil related failures.
you had some great luck with andersons engine. remember, you changed something that you thought was a flaw, and created a motor that failed in short order. I think when you change too much, too often, that can be a problem for progress. pull out the design docs for the engines Joe and Mark ran for YEARS and build those again, identical! (sans the cracking prototype intake)
one more thing, yet again. a track and a turn are a track and a turn. willow springs has no magical power, besides being tough on tires. Gs are Gs. the track is VERY tame compared to sears point for example. the ONLY thing challenging aobut the track, is getting the Omega line down, and having the ***** to hit 8-9 flat out. thats it.
There is NO physical reason why willow sprigns is harder than any other track for a given time on it. period! if you think there is, you better review some basic physics of the sport.
happy building-
Mark
PS, the only engine ive ever been associated with that grenaded, was one i got from anderson off his shelves. Its the only one i didnt go through, and it grenaded after 3 days at the track. it was a mess, it ciezed . putting the same engine, with new rings and bearings back in the car, proved to be perfect!
since the beginning, ive been apart of about 10 race engine rebuilds and projects. all of them are still running today without issues.
lesson learned...... if you want to go to the track, great go out and have fun. if you buy a used engine, take a couple of days and replace rings and bearings. its not a hard job and worth every min. The stock stuff works great, if it isnt damaged from the start.
use Amsoil and dont ever beat on the motor or rev it passed 3k before the engine is at normal operating temp (oil temp 180F). You can belive someone that has theory or someone that has lived it in practice for many years! you make the decision on who you want to listen too.
02-04-2014, 07:23 PM
#18
The Parts Whisperer
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Those are some very rose colored glasses you are using.
02-04-2014, 08:28 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Hey, we all weighed the same. remember, i was on the scales after you? How soon we forget. you needed 750lbs because your car only weighed 2500lbs. LOL!
I already gave you props for the 520hp adder when you did your 1:30.9. I brag about you all the time, so dont be so sensitive! Now, that 1:30 is also at the lighter weight, and with very nice used REAL slicks.
Im talking about when we were the same weight and you had 520hp, you ran 1:34s. (toyo RA1s). (and 1:40.1 was on the goodrich DOTs with 420rwhp)
Im sure on the tires im running that might be a a 1:32-3. BUT, give me a bone here. i did a 1:36.1 on crappy trash can hoosiers on a semi wet track!
(with only 372rwhp)AND. no motons, a blown out rear shock (even still today), my suspension shocks and springs are 18 years old this year!!!! all stock pick up points, all original bushings from 1987. no fancy cage. no GTS gear box, little wings and little spliter made from tin foil, etc etc. OHHH and no 14" F50 ferarri brakes, just stock solid rotors with stock S4 calipers. Oh, dont forget 320s on all 4 tires and a track that has been widened by 2". all of these things individually, if you talk to most racers are worth a second each!
Point is, and the ONLY point is, if i can ring out that old beast and grab a 1:36, im putting that engine through some pain. shut the mechanic up and tell him how we punish these cars!
and i get no credit for my only win against you when it rained because somehow your slicks were more slippery than my slicks in the rain at 65 degree tread temp. Gezzzz
Mk
02-04-2014, 09:49 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Mark, please... this gets tiresome. Everyone's thoughts and ideas are valuable, but repeating the same thing over and over doesn't make it any less "anecdotal".
I think everyone here applauds your success. There's two or three things that you are perhaps doing differently than others: You mentioned choosing gears carefully, and after watching your video, with that in mind, I think I finally get it: You pick gears going into the corners so that the rpm's are near the bottom of the working range coming out, rather than the top. That makes lots of sense-- it gives you lots of room, rpm-wise, to accelerate out of the corner, and the engine is also going to be happier. These engines have a wide power band, it makes sense to use it.
Some other considerations:
The carousel at Sears Point is downhill. That's a bit different than Willows or Thunderhill. (I haven't driven Willows, but I have driven Sears point and T'Hill).
Also, this was not a street car, it was a fully-built race chassis. If your 1.4-1.5g estimate for DOT-comp's is anywhere in the right ballpark (which it could be, for the Zombie chassis) then that's hugely different than a stock car on street tires (~0.8g).
I don't know if Amsoil makes any difference or not. I'm so tired of hearing about it that I've stopped using it. Maybe that's stupid but there are other good oils and I've been getting nice oil reports.
And neither of your engines was exactly stock. Well, maybe Porsche just picked an engine off the shelf when they built a car to do the Bonneville run, but that doesn't sound much like Porsche, does it? In any case your current motor is a very nice built motor from a very good motor builder. I don't know what all was done, but I seriously doubt that it has stock Porsche rod bearings.
I feel terrible for Rob, it's got to be a huge disappointment. But I'm not sure it means anything more than you shouldn't stick a stock engine into a race chassis and then give it to Mark Anderson.
Cheers, Jim
I think everyone here applauds your success. There's two or three things that you are perhaps doing differently than others: You mentioned choosing gears carefully, and after watching your video, with that in mind, I think I finally get it: You pick gears going into the corners so that the rpm's are near the bottom of the working range coming out, rather than the top. That makes lots of sense-- it gives you lots of room, rpm-wise, to accelerate out of the corner, and the engine is also going to be happier. These engines have a wide power band, it makes sense to use it.
Some other considerations:
The carousel at Sears Point is downhill. That's a bit different than Willows or Thunderhill. (I haven't driven Willows, but I have driven Sears point and T'Hill).
Also, this was not a street car, it was a fully-built race chassis. If your 1.4-1.5g estimate for DOT-comp's is anywhere in the right ballpark (which it could be, for the Zombie chassis) then that's hugely different than a stock car on street tires (~0.8g).
I don't know if Amsoil makes any difference or not. I'm so tired of hearing about it that I've stopped using it. Maybe that's stupid but there are other good oils and I've been getting nice oil reports.
And neither of your engines was exactly stock. Well, maybe Porsche just picked an engine off the shelf when they built a car to do the Bonneville run, but that doesn't sound much like Porsche, does it? In any case your current motor is a very nice built motor from a very good motor builder. I don't know what all was done, but I seriously doubt that it has stock Porsche rod bearings.
I feel terrible for Rob, it's got to be a huge disappointment. But I'm not sure it means anything more than you shouldn't stick a stock engine into a race chassis and then give it to Mark Anderson.
Cheers, Jim
02-04-2014, 10:44 PM
#21
Addict
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Porsche took the Holbert car to the big oval.at Nardi made SURE it was going to run fast enough. And last long enough Then sent it to Holbert who was running the factory race cars for his input..Then and only then did it show up at Bonneville with a truckload of spares Euro anx Usa transmissions and custom external chips for the modified brain to bump the rev limiter ..many things can appear "stock" especially to the untrained eye.
I believe that most if not all the Moldex cranks were drilled like a Chevy since that is what they are familiar with .Also the only one using custom rods with Porsche rod bearings was one of Andersons first strokers. Since he had a set of Carrillo from a std strk engine and wanted to use them.
I still wonder the Holbert heads which kibort is still running was fitted with the 944 s2 oil restrictors.....
But yes Mark K. , you are the Rodney Dangerfield of 928 racing...
My old very brown 1980 has survived partly because I am not racing, partly because it is not on slicks, partly because it makes so little power and less over 5,500, and mostly because I ran the short track events for the most part. I did knock the rod bearings out of one old 928 at Willow big track many years ago in 20 minutes.
I believe that most if not all the Moldex cranks were drilled like a Chevy since that is what they are familiar with .Also the only one using custom rods with Porsche rod bearings was one of Andersons first strokers. Since he had a set of Carrillo from a std strk engine and wanted to use them.
I still wonder the Holbert heads which kibort is still running was fitted with the 944 s2 oil restrictors.....
But yes Mark K. , you are the Rodney Dangerfield of 928 racing...
My old very brown 1980 has survived partly because I am not racing, partly because it is not on slicks, partly because it makes so little power and less over 5,500, and mostly because I ran the short track events for the most part. I did knock the rod bearings out of one old 928 at Willow big track many years ago in 20 minutes.
02-05-2014, 12:34 AM
#22
Former Sponsor
I was wondering when you would chime in. Ha ha.
Hey, we all weighed the same. remember, i was on the scales after you? How soon we forget. you needed 750lbs because your car only weighed 2500lbs. LOL!
I already gave you props for the 520hp adder when you did your 1:30.9. I brag about you all the time, so dont be so sensitive! Now, that 1:30 is also at the lighter weight, and with very nice used REAL slicks.
Im talking about when we were the same weight and you had 520hp, you ran 1:34s. (toyo RA1s). (and 1:40.1 was on the goodrich DOTs with 420rwhp)
Im sure on the tires im running that might be a a 1:32-3. BUT, give me a bone here. i did a 1:36.1 on crappy trash can hoosiers on a semi wet track! (with only 372rwhp)
AND. no motons, a blown out rear shock (even still today), my suspension shocks and springs are 18 years old this year!!!! all stock pick up points, all original bushings from 1987. no fancy cage. no GTS gear box, little wings and little spliter made from tin foil, etc etc. OHHH and no 14" F50 ferarri brakes, just stock solid rotors with stock S4 calipers. Oh, dont forget 320s on all 4 tires and a track that has been widened by 2". all of these things individually, if you talk to most racers are worth a second each!
Point is, and the ONLY point is, if i can ring out that old beast and grab a 1:36, im putting that engine through some pain. shut the mechanic up and tell him how we punish these cars!
and i get no credit for my only win against you when it rained because somehow your slicks were more slippery than my slicks in the rain at 65 degree tread temp. Gezzzz
Mk
Hey, we all weighed the same. remember, i was on the scales after you? How soon we forget. you needed 750lbs because your car only weighed 2500lbs. LOL!
I already gave you props for the 520hp adder when you did your 1:30.9. I brag about you all the time, so dont be so sensitive! Now, that 1:30 is also at the lighter weight, and with very nice used REAL slicks.
Im talking about when we were the same weight and you had 520hp, you ran 1:34s. (toyo RA1s). (and 1:40.1 was on the goodrich DOTs with 420rwhp)
Im sure on the tires im running that might be a a 1:32-3. BUT, give me a bone here. i did a 1:36.1 on crappy trash can hoosiers on a semi wet track!
(with only 372rwhp)AND. no motons, a blown out rear shock (even still today), my suspension shocks and springs are 18 years old this year!!!! all stock pick up points, all original bushings from 1987. no fancy cage. no GTS gear box, little wings and little spliter made from tin foil, etc etc. OHHH and no 14" F50 ferarri brakes, just stock solid rotors with stock S4 calipers. Oh, dont forget 320s on all 4 tires and a track that has been widened by 2". all of these things individually, if you talk to most racers are worth a second each!
Point is, and the ONLY point is, if i can ring out that old beast and grab a 1:36, im putting that engine through some pain. shut the mechanic up and tell him how we punish these cars!
and i get no credit for my only win against you when it rained because somehow your slicks were more slippery than my slicks in the rain at 65 degree tread temp. Gezzzz
Mk
Enough.
Kibort:
Mark Anderson has won the Porsche Cup....and his name is engraved forever along with some of the world's very best drivers. That is not an accident or a quirk. It's very, very real.
It's great fun that one day, in the rain, you went faster than he did at your home track.
I once beat Hurley Haywood around Laguna Seca with him in a brand new 959 and me in my self built 911.
So what?
It occurs to me that there is a really simple solution to this debate.
Since I've been talking about making engines "live" at Willow....with Anderson driving.....and that got perverted into another "I'm a better driver than Anderson".....
Here it is:
Bring that POS down to Willow. I'll bring Anderson. You both get two 30 minute practice sessions. And then you both run for time. You both run on your very own set of brand new race tires. I will gather enough interested people to pay for the tires....or pay for them myself.
You beat his time....I'll give you 5K. Cash. Not a bet.....just a flat 5K into your hands. You can keep the tires....they should last you the rest of 2014!
There is a "catch"....from the "mechanic". You and I will have a separate bet for another 5K. I'm betting the engine (and it has to be exactly like it is, right now....no Accusump added....nothing different) will not survive those practice sessions at Willow and still be in one piece to run those timed runs.
If you are right and you are the hero driver you think you are...and Amsoil is the only thing needed to keep a 928 engine together at Willow....you walk away with 10K......and two almost brand new sets of tires!
You are wrong....you are out 5K and need another engine.....and I keep the almost new tires.
There it is...forget all the ego, forget all the bull****. Quit rationalizing about how great you are and show me. Super easy day for you...you've spent dozens of hours telling us all about how great you are, that you are better than Anderson, dozens of hours telling us that all one needs to keep a 928 engine together is Amsoil.
Simple, easy payday, for you!
Put up or shut up.
Let the back pedaling begin.....
02-05-2014, 01:04 AM
#24
Archive Gatekeeper
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
+ $100 here. Should we set up a kickstarter account?
02-05-2014, 03:26 AM
#30
Rennlist Member
OK.
Enough.
Kibort:
Mark Anderson has won the Porsche Cup....and his name is engraved forever along with some of the world's very best drivers. That is not an accident or a quirk. It's very, very real.
It's great fun that one day, in the rain, you went faster than he did at your home track.
I once beat Hurley Haywood around Laguna Seca with him in a brand new 959 and me in my self built 911.
So what?
It occurs to me that there is a really simple solution to this debate.
Since I've been talking about making engines "live" at Willow....with Anderson driving.....and that got perverted into another "I'm a better driver than Anderson".....
Here it is:
Bring that POS down to Willow. I'll bring Anderson. You both get two 30 minute practice sessions. And then you both run for time. You both run on your very own set of brand new race tires. I will gather enough interested people to pay for the tires....or pay for them myself.
You beat his time....I'll give you 5K. Cash. Not a bet.....just a flat 5K into your hands. You can keep the tires....they should last you the rest of 2014!
There is a "catch"....from the "mechanic". You and I will have a separate bet for another 5K. I'm betting the engine (and it has to be exactly like it is, right now....no Accusump added....nothing different) will not survive those practice sessions at Willow and still be in one piece to run those timed runs.
If you are right and you are the hero driver you think you are...and Amsoil is the only thing needed to keep a 928 engine together at Willow....you walk away with 10K......and two almost brand new sets of tires!
You are wrong....you are out 5K and need another engine.....and I keep the almost new tires.
There it is...forget all the ego, forget all the bull****. Quit rationalizing about how great you are and show me. Super easy day for you...you've spent dozens of hours telling us all about how great you are, that you are better than Anderson, dozens of hours telling us that all one needs to keep a 928 engine together is Amsoil.
Simple, easy payday, for you!
Put up or shut up.
Let the back pedaling begin.....
Enough.
Kibort:
Mark Anderson has won the Porsche Cup....and his name is engraved forever along with some of the world's very best drivers. That is not an accident or a quirk. It's very, very real.
It's great fun that one day, in the rain, you went faster than he did at your home track.
I once beat Hurley Haywood around Laguna Seca with him in a brand new 959 and me in my self built 911.
So what?
It occurs to me that there is a really simple solution to this debate.
Since I've been talking about making engines "live" at Willow....with Anderson driving.....and that got perverted into another "I'm a better driver than Anderson".....
Here it is:
Bring that POS down to Willow. I'll bring Anderson. You both get two 30 minute practice sessions. And then you both run for time. You both run on your very own set of brand new race tires. I will gather enough interested people to pay for the tires....or pay for them myself.
You beat his time....I'll give you 5K. Cash. Not a bet.....just a flat 5K into your hands. You can keep the tires....they should last you the rest of 2014!
There is a "catch"....from the "mechanic". You and I will have a separate bet for another 5K. I'm betting the engine (and it has to be exactly like it is, right now....no Accusump added....nothing different) will not survive those practice sessions at Willow and still be in one piece to run those timed runs.
If you are right and you are the hero driver you think you are...and Amsoil is the only thing needed to keep a 928 engine together at Willow....you walk away with 10K......and two almost brand new sets of tires!
You are wrong....you are out 5K and need another engine.....and I keep the almost new tires.
There it is...forget all the ego, forget all the bull****. Quit rationalizing about how great you are and show me. Super easy day for you...you've spent dozens of hours telling us all about how great you are, that you are better than Anderson, dozens of hours telling us that all one needs to keep a 928 engine together is Amsoil.
Simple, easy payday, for you!
Put up or shut up.
Let the back pedaling begin.....
this discussion didn't get "perverted" into a "im better than anyone" discussion or topic. it was just to point out relative truths that the 928 can be run as hard as it ever did , without any mods to the engine for oiling, breathers, etc. the comparison was ONLY done to show the car was not lally gagging out at the track. the times don't lie.
I would never bet that I can beat mark at his home track in my car, just as he cant beat me at my home track in my car. so, that bet doesn't mean anything. we have already been in the the SAME car at a familiar track and run near the same times. my point wasn't to say im a better driver than Mark. Mark is good, lots of drivers are good. Im not saying he or I will be the fastest driver on ANY given track in any same car. what Im saying is that we both will be pretty close, and I would bet he or I would keep the car out of harms way , vs most ive seen out there. My point was to show you that ive run the 928 as hard or harder at a few other tracks, compared to where his car was MOST of his racing career. and that it survived with no modifications. and will survive for many races to come. You haven't driven enough to figure out this driving thing is more than just lap time at a certain point. Im over that part now. Now, I just need to find a car that can go a lot faster in a class that is competitive.
now the bet for the running of my car at willow is intriguing. There is no doubt it will survive as long as Mark doesn't hurt it by a mistake or a bad downshift.
so, if the only criteria is, it survives or breaks, but not due to a spun bearing, that would work for me. all I need to do now, is fix that transmission and the car is golden. and yes, Anderson wont break it, but then again, why would he? why is willow so different? Lets do this in a POC event so I can run the race the next day!
If we were to a drive off, we would have to do it at Buttonwillow, where both of us really haven't spent much time at. Now that would be fun.
How about this. rebuild a stock engine for Rob and let mark and I run it at buttonwillow. No mods, no breathers, just amsoil. If it grenades, Ill pay for the rebuild. same bet for best lap time.