Kibort versus...........THE WORLD!!!!
07-16-2003, 09:05 AM
#1
Administrator - "Tyson"
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Thread Starter
Kibort versus...........THE WORLD!!!!
Time to try something new.
Here is a thread to move all the Kibort runaway hijacks, in order to save some good threads without deleting a massive amount of posts.
Hopefully this works........
Here is a thread to move all the Kibort runaway hijacks, in order to save some good threads without deleting a massive amount of posts.
Hopefully this works........
02-03-2014, 03:09 AM
#2
Rennlist Member
So Andersons best stroker lasted 5 years of 12 events per year....so lets call that 12 hours per year or 60 hours on track total.....thats quite good for any race engine.....considering 500+whp for 60 hours is even more impressive... I wonder how long the GT3 cup engines last.....I recall a rebuild "recommendation" of 25 hours?
Assuming an 100mph on track average (probably low) thats over 6000miles at race pace!!
I know my old lemons racer lasted about 120hours before the engine died....BUT that was on street tires (rules in lemons) so the max G forces was at best 1.2g....
Assuming an 100mph on track average (probably low) thats over 6000miles at race pace!!
I know my old lemons racer lasted about 120hours before the engine died....BUT that was on street tires (rules in lemons) so the max G forces was at best 1.2g....
1:38.9 at laguna seca, always in the 1:39s. no oil mods at all. only amsoil.. good warm up procedures and revs at 6500rpm for almost all shifts.
02-03-2014, 03:22 AM
#3
Rennlist Member
Update-
I have been slowly collecting parts and pieces, Shawshank style, here and there, attracting little/no attention, over the past year to build a replacement engine for the Zombie. But I couldn't resist the appeal of sticking a used S4 motor in there and hitting the track. When I told Greg of this plan, he used up all his daily supply of diplomacy to not pimp-slap me right then and there, and managed to smile weakly and say, 'Well, that's a different direction than I thought you were going.....'
Lesson #1: If you're going to half-*** something, don't share that fact with Greg.
Thrashed on the Zombie up through last Tuesday, at which point I cried 'uncle' and had it flatbedded to Greg's. Whereupon three full days of idiotproofing commenced. And ended only when we absolutely positively had to put the car in the trailer on Friday night.
Couple of old lines (power steering, trans cooler) got swapped for new, new clutch MC guts, adjusted the clutch, transmission mounts, re-charged the shocks with nitrogen, etc., etc....
Lesson #2: Race car prep is not done until you're sticking it in the trailer.
When Greg learned that Mark was going to be my instructor, and the plan was to have Mark do a shakedown session first, he opined that the S4 motor was not going to last the weekend. We joked a lot about putting a valet mode into the PEMs. What I didn't realize was that Greg assumed that we'd be running the Streets course at Willow. Not the big track. (_average_ speed for the lap record is 132 mph....)
Lesson #3: When your mechanic is betting on the dead pool for the engine based on the smaller, slower track, you should start to worry.
At this point the Zombie has a 1991 S4 motor that came out of an automatic, stock except for a pan spacer and Greg's windage trays. I did pull the rod caps and checked all the bearings, they all looked good.
Mark and I drove up to Palmdale Friday night, watching YT videos on the line around WIllow Springs.
Morning comes early, get to the track, get the car out of the trailer, beautiful morning.
Mark takes the car out for the first 25 minute session. Comes back, says the car is running great. I jump in, we head out for my first session. I am utterly overwhelmed- Six-point harness, HANS device, limited field of view, can't hear ****, R888 tires, Pagid blacks, no working speedometer, first time on the track and they have us start with point-by passing drills. Car runs great, I'm utterly hooked. But man, I am terrible at this....
Can't wait for the next session, we head back out for more lapping. On the grid, warm idle oil pressure is 3.5 bars. About 3 laps in I get on it a little bit, up to maybe 5000 rpm in 4th gear down the front straight. Through the 90o left turn 1, power feels a bit down at track out. Thought I smell something as we turn into the first half of turn 2, at which point the dash lights up INSUFFICIENT OIL PRESSURE. Flipped off the key, coasted off the shoulder between 2 and 3. Watched the rest of the session from the best seats in the house. No holes in the block, no coolant in the oil or vice versa. Hopefully the bores are ok.
Towed back to the pits, back in trailer, back to civilization. I pulled the oil filter and cut it open.
Eww.
Lesson #4. Don't bet against Greg.
Lesson #5. You're not special. You can kill an S4 motor in just over an hour by running long sweepers one after another, and never hit 6000 rpm.
Lesson #6: Shoulda used Amsoil.
Still working on pulling the motor, will post the autopsy pics when I have the engine out. I suppose it's possible this motor was sick to begin with, though I had a good look at the bottom end. Or maybe I did something stupid that Greg didn't catch, or ????
Or maybe, simply, Zombie + WSIR+ R888's + stock S4 motor = rapid rod bearing suicide.
I have been slowly collecting parts and pieces, Shawshank style, here and there, attracting little/no attention, over the past year to build a replacement engine for the Zombie. But I couldn't resist the appeal of sticking a used S4 motor in there and hitting the track. When I told Greg of this plan, he used up all his daily supply of diplomacy to not pimp-slap me right then and there, and managed to smile weakly and say, 'Well, that's a different direction than I thought you were going.....'
Lesson #1: If you're going to half-*** something, don't share that fact with Greg.
Thrashed on the Zombie up through last Tuesday, at which point I cried 'uncle' and had it flatbedded to Greg's. Whereupon three full days of idiotproofing commenced. And ended only when we absolutely positively had to put the car in the trailer on Friday night.
Couple of old lines (power steering, trans cooler) got swapped for new, new clutch MC guts, adjusted the clutch, transmission mounts, re-charged the shocks with nitrogen, etc., etc....
Lesson #2: Race car prep is not done until you're sticking it in the trailer.
When Greg learned that Mark was going to be my instructor, and the plan was to have Mark do a shakedown session first, he opined that the S4 motor was not going to last the weekend. We joked a lot about putting a valet mode into the PEMs. What I didn't realize was that Greg assumed that we'd be running the Streets course at Willow. Not the big track. (_average_ speed for the lap record is 132 mph....)
Lesson #3: When your mechanic is betting on the dead pool for the engine based on the smaller, slower track, you should start to worry.
At this point the Zombie has a 1991 S4 motor that came out of an automatic, stock except for a pan spacer and Greg's windage trays. I did pull the rod caps and checked all the bearings, they all looked good.
Mark and I drove up to Palmdale Friday night, watching YT videos on the line around WIllow Springs.
Morning comes early, get to the track, get the car out of the trailer, beautiful morning.
Mark takes the car out for the first 25 minute session. Comes back, says the car is running great. I jump in, we head out for my first session. I am utterly overwhelmed- Six-point harness, HANS device, limited field of view, can't hear ****, R888 tires, Pagid blacks, no working speedometer, first time on the track and they have us start with point-by passing drills. Car runs great, I'm utterly hooked. But man, I am terrible at this....
Can't wait for the next session, we head back out for more lapping. On the grid, warm idle oil pressure is 3.5 bars. About 3 laps in I get on it a little bit, up to maybe 5000 rpm in 4th gear down the front straight. Through the 90o left turn 1, power feels a bit down at track out. Thought I smell something as we turn into the first half of turn 2, at which point the dash lights up INSUFFICIENT OIL PRESSURE. Flipped off the key, coasted off the shoulder between 2 and 3. Watched the rest of the session from the best seats in the house. No holes in the block, no coolant in the oil or vice versa. Hopefully the bores are ok.
Towed back to the pits, back in trailer, back to civilization. I pulled the oil filter and cut it open.
Eww.
Lesson #4. Don't bet against Greg.
Lesson #5. You're not special. You can kill an S4 motor in just over an hour by running long sweepers one after another, and never hit 6000 rpm.
Lesson #6: Shoulda used Amsoil.
Still working on pulling the motor, will post the autopsy pics when I have the engine out. I suppose it's possible this motor was sick to begin with, though I had a good look at the bottom end. Or maybe I did something stupid that Greg didn't catch, or ????
Or maybe, simply, Zombie + WSIR+ R888's + stock S4 motor = rapid rod bearing suicide.
what oil were you using?
the track is no biggie, especially if you are just doing DE lapping speeds. Ive been there a few times with my old 84 and was turning 1:34s and that engine had a lot of track days on it. 175,000 street miles too!
no issues. no issues when engine was pulled and bearings looked at. (and that's racing, not DEing) Gs are Gs. that turn 8 -9 is no different than any other high G turn. Its duration is a LOT less than turn 2 at Thunderhill.Im VERY suspect of the scraper systems. I suspect that the scraper can impede oil flow back to the sump, I also think that having all the oil splashing and whipping around in the engine internals is not a bad thing.
edit: first of all.. very sorry for this MESS . I know its such a hassle to break down an engine. the problem with used engine, is that you never know what you have. ALWAYS before you put a used engine in, change out the head gaskets , timing belt and maybe even do rod bearings. all much easier than cleaning up this kind of mess, plus wasting a weekend. next..... amsoil.... why not .
so is this a head gasket failure and then a hydro lock? If so , then the other things we all talk about as causes, all get tossed!
again, sorry for the loss.
02-03-2014, 08:34 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Greg, i disagree. these engines are fine, WHEN you start with a good one and take the proper care of it. Im not doing ANYTHING special. all stock stuff. Ive raced this platform HARD for over 12 years now. never had a hint of a rod bearing issue. Lucky? nah. the holbert car went to road america with a 100mph sweeper, but then again. it doesnt matter the speed of the corner, only the G loading and duration. we have the worst one in the business at thunderhill. 6 seconds of high g loading.
Brian blew a motor that was suspect and was running 4 quarts low of oil and a mix of wesson oil and amsoil .
other engines ive seen with pressure problems have been on mobil 1. the oil just breaks down in viscosity at 240F temps.
you can see my videos til the cows come home. Im running as fast as Anderson ever ran at laguna, and running there in races more than anyone in the world can! 3-4 times a year. 1:36.1 is a full 3-4 seconds faster than his WCGT debut running on similar tires and with 200 less hp. (1:40.1) Im not talking about comparing driving styles or who is better, etc. Im talking forces on the car! so, no ego talk here.
so, whats really going on? ive been in the instructor seat in a few of these cars and seen how possible misshifts, or bad downshifts can put forces on the engine not natural to acceleration . ive also seen the highest RPMs in areas of the track that arent needed for acceleration.
Ive also seen poor warm up procedures. (guys reving cold engines from the initial crank like its a motorcycle). all of these things can damage the engine and manifest themselves in an ontrack failure.
I have no problem putting any money on a stock engine, that is known to be good. (i.e. good rings, bores, and bearings with some random checks of proper clearances). all of the ideas for failure are anecdotal at best. too many variables, when the real controled study is actually my car that is still running strong. they said the Holbert car was not a stock engine, but when it came apart it was. no squirters, nothing. no accusump, no scrapers, windage trays, etc. It didnt burn oil and didnt have much oil in the intake at all. the earlier cars had a harder time with this, but never to a point were we needed to put a catch can or an mods at all. scot raced for a few years this way at the same tracks running near as fast as i did at the same power levels. (1:41s at laguna, 2:04 at t-hill on 290rwhp).
Now, the only thing that you have done in your testing that proves there is a major problem is your tests at high rpm for long durations. (this is not a road course issue because the longest straights we will EVER see at WOT and High RPM is only around 16 seconds , like road america) and thats where the oil pumps up to the heads and eventually packs the heads and starves the bottom end.
One thing i would be very leary of is the windage trays. Im not convinced the oil can get back down to the sump without being restricted.
so, with that, i will continue to race my stock equiped engine with NO oiling mods, for a 6th racing season. and this car will be on the race track every month of the season without fail and i will not have a worry at all. dont blame the track. Ive been to all the tracks of nor cal and willow spring, Road america as well. never had a hint of an oiling issue. why is that?
remeber, Joe fan also ran his car with out any real mods, sans his accusump and it seemed to survive pretty well, even pumping out 520rwhp. some of marks failures were due to that enormous HP and that intake when it failed..... but he did get quite a few seasons out of it before it blew.
everytime i hear of a failure like this. Im very sad first of all. but then, i want to know what was different than what im doing. this is a classic case of you will never know because it was not controlled . you just stuck in a used motor and hoped it would work. brian did this, and got bitten and i never have.
so, i would see if that windage tray might be causing some oil return restriction. and, i would recomend anyone putting an engine in, to spend the few hours taking it apart, replacing headgaskets and bearings and possibly rings and then go out and have fun. OH, dont forget the Amsoil!!
Brian blew a motor that was suspect and was running 4 quarts low of oil and a mix of wesson oil and amsoil .
other engines ive seen with pressure problems have been on mobil 1. the oil just breaks down in viscosity at 240F temps.you can see my videos til the cows come home. Im running as fast as Anderson ever ran at laguna, and running there in races more than anyone in the world can! 3-4 times a year. 1:36.1 is a full 3-4 seconds faster than his WCGT debut running on similar tires and with 200 less hp. (1:40.1) Im not talking about comparing driving styles or who is better, etc. Im talking forces on the car! so, no ego talk here.
so, whats really going on? ive been in the instructor seat in a few of these cars and seen how possible misshifts, or bad downshifts can put forces on the engine not natural to acceleration . ive also seen the highest RPMs in areas of the track that arent needed for acceleration.
Ive also seen poor warm up procedures. (guys reving cold engines from the initial crank like its a motorcycle). all of these things can damage the engine and manifest themselves in an ontrack failure.
I have no problem putting any money on a stock engine, that is known to be good. (i.e. good rings, bores, and bearings with some random checks of proper clearances). all of the ideas for failure are anecdotal at best. too many variables, when the real controled study is actually my car that is still running strong. they said the Holbert car was not a stock engine, but when it came apart it was. no squirters, nothing. no accusump, no scrapers, windage trays, etc. It didnt burn oil and didnt have much oil in the intake at all. the earlier cars had a harder time with this, but never to a point were we needed to put a catch can or an mods at all. scot raced for a few years this way at the same tracks running near as fast as i did at the same power levels. (1:41s at laguna, 2:04 at t-hill on 290rwhp).
Now, the only thing that you have done in your testing that proves there is a major problem is your tests at high rpm for long durations. (this is not a road course issue because the longest straights we will EVER see at WOT and High RPM is only around 16 seconds , like road america) and thats where the oil pumps up to the heads and eventually packs the heads and starves the bottom end.
One thing i would be very leary of is the windage trays. Im not convinced the oil can get back down to the sump without being restricted.
so, with that, i will continue to race my stock equiped engine with NO oiling mods, for a 6th racing season. and this car will be on the race track every month of the season without fail and i will not have a worry at all. dont blame the track. Ive been to all the tracks of nor cal and willow spring, Road america as well. never had a hint of an oiling issue. why is that?
remeber, Joe fan also ran his car with out any real mods, sans his accusump and it seemed to survive pretty well, even pumping out 520rwhp. some of marks failures were due to that enormous HP and that intake when it failed..... but he did get quite a few seasons out of it before it blew.
everytime i hear of a failure like this. Im very sad first of all. but then, i want to know what was different than what im doing. this is a classic case of you will never know because it was not controlled . you just stuck in a used motor and hoped it would work. brian did this, and got bitten and i never have.
so, i would see if that windage tray might be causing some oil return restriction. and, i would recomend anyone putting an engine in, to spend the few hours taking it apart, replacing headgaskets and bearings and possibly rings and then go out and have fun. OH, dont forget the Amsoil!!
02-03-2014, 09:09 PM
#6
Rennlist
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Greg, i disagree. these engines are fine, WHEN you start with a good one and take the proper care of it. Im not doing ANYTHING special. all stock stuff. Ive raced this platform HARD for over 12 years now. never had a hint of a rod bearing issue. Lucky? nah. the holbert car went to road america with a 100mph sweeper, but then again. it doesnt matter the speed of the corner, only the G loading and duration. we have the worst one in the business at thunderhill. 6 seconds of high g loading.
Brian blew a motor that was suspect and was running 4 quarts low of oil and a mix of wesson oil and amsoil . other engines ive seen with pressure problems have been on mobil 1. the oil just breaks down in viscosity at 240F temps.
you can see my videos til the cows come home. Im running as fast as Anderson ever ran at laguna, and running there in races more than anyone in the world can! 3-4 times a year. 1:36.1 is a full 3-4 seconds faster than his WCGT debut running on similar tires and with 200 less hp. (1:40.1) Im not talking about comparing driving styles or who is better, etc. Im talking forces on the car! so, no ego talk here.
so, whats really going on? ive been in the instructor seat in a few of these cars and seen how possible misshifts, or bad downshifts can put forces on the engine not natural to acceleration . ive also seen the highest RPMs in areas of the track that arent needed for acceleration.
Ive also seen poor warm up procedures. (guys reving cold engines from the initial crank like its a motorcycle). all of these things can damage the engine and manifest themselves in an ontrack failure.
I have no problem putting any money on a stock engine, that is known to be good. (i.e. good rings, bores, and bearings with some random checks of proper clearances). all of the ideas for failure are anecdotal at best. too many variables, when the real controled study is actually my car that is still running strong. they said the Holbert car was not a stock engine, but when it came apart it was. no squirters, nothing. no accusump, no scrapers, windage trays, etc. It didnt burn oil and didnt have much oil in the intake at all. the earlier cars had a harder time with this, but never to a point were we needed to put a catch can or an mods at all. scot raced for a few years this way at the same tracks running near as fast as i did at the same power levels. (1:41s at laguna, 2:04 at t-hill on 290rwhp).
Now, the only thing that you have done in your testing that proves there is a major problem is your tests at high rpm for long durations. (this is not a road course issue because the longest straights we will EVER see at WOT and High RPM is only around 16 seconds , like road america) and thats where the oil pumps up to the heads and eventually packs the heads and starves the bottom end.
One thing i would be very leary of is the windage trays. Im not convinced the oil can get back down to the sump without being restricted.
so, with that, i will continue to race my stock equiped engine with NO oiling mods, for a 6th racing season. and this car will be on the race track every month of the season without fail and i will not have a worry at all. dont blame the track. Ive been to all the tracks of nor cal and willow spring, Road america as well. never had a hint of an oiling issue. why is that?
remeber, Joe fan also ran his car with out any real mods, sans his accusump and it seemed to survive pretty well, even pumping out 520rwhp. some of marks failures were due to that enormous HP and that intake when it failed..... but he did get quite a few seasons out of it before it blew.
everytime i hear of a failure like this. Im very sad first of all. but then, i want to know what was different than what im doing. this is a classic case of you will never know because it was not controlled . you just stuck in a used motor and hoped it would work. brian did this, and got bitten and i never have.
so, i would see if that windage tray might be causing some oil return restriction. and, i would recomend anyone putting an engine in, to spend the few hours taking it apart, replacing headgaskets and bearings and possibly rings and then go out and have fun. OH, dont forget the Amsoil!!
Brian blew a motor that was suspect and was running 4 quarts low of oil and a mix of wesson oil and amsoil .
other engines ive seen with pressure problems have been on mobil 1. the oil just breaks down in viscosity at 240F temps.you can see my videos til the cows come home. Im running as fast as Anderson ever ran at laguna, and running there in races more than anyone in the world can! 3-4 times a year. 1:36.1 is a full 3-4 seconds faster than his WCGT debut running on similar tires and with 200 less hp. (1:40.1) Im not talking about comparing driving styles or who is better, etc. Im talking forces on the car! so, no ego talk here.
so, whats really going on? ive been in the instructor seat in a few of these cars and seen how possible misshifts, or bad downshifts can put forces on the engine not natural to acceleration . ive also seen the highest RPMs in areas of the track that arent needed for acceleration.
Ive also seen poor warm up procedures. (guys reving cold engines from the initial crank like its a motorcycle). all of these things can damage the engine and manifest themselves in an ontrack failure.
I have no problem putting any money on a stock engine, that is known to be good. (i.e. good rings, bores, and bearings with some random checks of proper clearances). all of the ideas for failure are anecdotal at best. too many variables, when the real controled study is actually my car that is still running strong. they said the Holbert car was not a stock engine, but when it came apart it was. no squirters, nothing. no accusump, no scrapers, windage trays, etc. It didnt burn oil and didnt have much oil in the intake at all. the earlier cars had a harder time with this, but never to a point were we needed to put a catch can or an mods at all. scot raced for a few years this way at the same tracks running near as fast as i did at the same power levels. (1:41s at laguna, 2:04 at t-hill on 290rwhp).
Now, the only thing that you have done in your testing that proves there is a major problem is your tests at high rpm for long durations. (this is not a road course issue because the longest straights we will EVER see at WOT and High RPM is only around 16 seconds , like road america) and thats where the oil pumps up to the heads and eventually packs the heads and starves the bottom end.
One thing i would be very leary of is the windage trays. Im not convinced the oil can get back down to the sump without being restricted.
so, with that, i will continue to race my stock equiped engine with NO oiling mods, for a 6th racing season. and this car will be on the race track every month of the season without fail and i will not have a worry at all. dont blame the track. Ive been to all the tracks of nor cal and willow spring, Road america as well. never had a hint of an oiling issue. why is that?
remeber, Joe fan also ran his car with out any real mods, sans his accusump and it seemed to survive pretty well, even pumping out 520rwhp. some of marks failures were due to that enormous HP and that intake when it failed..... but he did get quite a few seasons out of it before it blew.
everytime i hear of a failure like this. Im very sad first of all. but then, i want to know what was different than what im doing. this is a classic case of you will never know because it was not controlled . you just stuck in a used motor and hoped it would work. brian did this, and got bitten and i never have.
so, i would see if that windage tray might be causing some oil return restriction. and, i would recomend anyone putting an engine in, to spend the few hours taking it apart, replacing headgaskets and bearings and possibly rings and then go out and have fun. OH, dont forget the Amsoil!!
However, I'm always open to ideas....even if I'm pretty sure I proved them wrong, 15 years ago.
Like I told Colin.....if you want to experiment to prove your point, I'm sure that Rob would be glad to take the engine you furnish, along with whatever pieces and oil you want to run and have Mark go test drive the car for another 25 minutes and see what happens.
Nothing personal, but if I'm going to do it and it's going to have my name associated with it....I think I'll stick to what I know and what I've done.
While I'm not positive what you do all day long....this is kind of what I do....all day long, day after day, year after year.....not just something I do a few times a year.
BTW.....the windage tray/crank scraper in the Widow certainly looks like it would restrict the oil return. I've always been very suspect of this system and would not use it.
My system is much simpler and does not. The oil can freely pass through (either direction actually), but the screen simply keeps it from hitting the pan and being bounced back up. Very basic, very simple. No down side.
__________________
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
greg brown
714 879 9072
GregBBRD@aol.com
Semi-retired, as of Feb 1, 2023.
The days of free technical advice are over.
Free consultations will no longer be available.
Will still be in the shop, isolated and exclusively working on project cars, developmental work and products, engines and transmissions.
Have fun with your 928's people!
Last edited by GregBBRD; 02-03-2014 at 09:25 PM.
02-04-2014, 12:41 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
To be clear on the Widow's engine failure shown in the NASCAR moment was caused by a dropped Valve. I'm not sure if the windage tray had any thing to do with the failure I would geuss not. I didn't bother to replace the damaged windage tray / crank scraper after the failure simply because of the cost.
I put a set of modified S3 cams in a used engine which probably contributed to the valve failure.
I put a set of modified S3 cams in a used engine which probably contributed to the valve failure.
Mark,
Your concern regarding these windage trays that are being installed makes complete sense to me and i'm very new to the 928. I was thinking the same but not willing to post.
At track rpms the oil being pumped out of the sump could outpace oil coming back into the sump with this restriction. Thus upsetting how the system was designed to operate leaving more oil where it was not supposed to be and less where you need it.
This thread made me think about the 1984 Daytona Lightweight and how it gained position during that race not due to it's power but simply by not breaking like much of the rest out there that day.
Anyway, interesting and frightening thread.
Good luck with your racing Rob! -Matt
Your concern regarding these windage trays that are being installed makes complete sense to me and i'm very new to the 928. I was thinking the same but not willing to post.
At track rpms the oil being pumped out of the sump could outpace oil coming back into the sump with this restriction. Thus upsetting how the system was designed to operate leaving more oil where it was not supposed to be and less where you need it.
This thread made me think about the 1984 Daytona Lightweight and how it gained position during that race not due to it's power but simply by not breaking like much of the rest out there that day.
Anyway, interesting and frightening thread.
Good luck with your racing Rob! -Matt
I'm guessing that Rob's new Toyo's will pull more "G's" than any of your old worn out race tires....and you never experience anything like turn 2 or turn 8, at Willow.
However, I'm always open to ideas....even if I'm pretty sure I proved them wrong, 15 years ago.
Like I told Colin.....if you want to experiment to prove your point, I'm sure that Rob would be glad to take the engine you furnish, along with whatever pieces and oil you want to run and have Mark go test drive the car for another 25 minutes and see what happens.
Nothing personal, but if I'm going to do it and it's going to have my name associated with it....I think I'll stick to what I know and what I've done.
While I'm not positive what you do all day long....this is kind of what I do....all day long, day after day, year after year.....not just something I do a few times a year.
BTW.....the windage tray/crank scraper in the Widow certainly looks like it would restrict the oil return. I've always been very suspect of this system and would not use it.
My system is much simpler and does not. The oil can freely pass through (either direction actually), but the screen simply keeps it from hitting the pan and being bounced back up. Very basic, very simple. No down side.
However, I'm always open to ideas....even if I'm pretty sure I proved them wrong, 15 years ago.
Like I told Colin.....if you want to experiment to prove your point, I'm sure that Rob would be glad to take the engine you furnish, along with whatever pieces and oil you want to run and have Mark go test drive the car for another 25 minutes and see what happens.
Nothing personal, but if I'm going to do it and it's going to have my name associated with it....I think I'll stick to what I know and what I've done.
While I'm not positive what you do all day long....this is kind of what I do....all day long, day after day, year after year.....not just something I do a few times a year.
BTW.....the windage tray/crank scraper in the Widow certainly looks like it would restrict the oil return. I've always been very suspect of this system and would not use it.
My system is much simpler and does not. The oil can freely pass through (either direction actually), but the screen simply keeps it from hitting the pan and being bounced back up. Very basic, very simple. No down side.
turn 2 and 8-9 are standard carrocel turns. they last 10 -12 seconds just like the carrocel at sears and just like the carocell at road America. a G is a G!!!!! for Christ sake GREG for as smart as you are, you really close your eyes to facts sometimes. the engine has NO idea if you are going 140 or 40mph, if it is a constant G force. the only thing that does know you are going fast at WILLOW SPRINGS is your WALLET. there is much more power applied to the tires for lateral acceleration at willow springs, so you burn tires up faster! that's it. there is NO magic at willow other than there are 2 10 second sweepers vs 1 at Sears point or Thunderhill. (and by the way, turn 8-9 is really two turns separated by 1 second of straight (no G loading in that 1-2second period)
now, I don't know if you have been paying attention, but I have already been to willow springs a few times. turned a 1:34 in a POC lazy weekend with my first race car on hoosiers . I jogged around with Joes car running a 1:29 following Anderson in his car and got a feel for the track.
If you want, I will come down with my car and run willow springs this year. the car has run near 60 race days so far and I have no problem putting it on a track like willow. why would I. what, SCIENTIFICALLLY, is any different? a G load is a g load. the car will run, it wont blow up and it will run, probably around a 1:28 or so only because I don't know the track, and as you know, willow springs is not like laguna, sears, t-hill, buttonwillow and its 10 configurations, or road America..... its really a tough track to figure out and trust your car on.
Again, thanks for validating my concern of the windage tray.... yours might be different, but still any restriction is a restriction and I don't belive you or anyone else knows if that could be a concern. I don't have one and I have no problem with burning oil or oil starvation based on real data....... 60 race days, and times that NO ONE You are working with Is running with a 928, BUT mark and Joe. so, your comments about toyos R888 that are full tread, and not pulling the Gs I could pull on almost any REAL DOT tire, I don't care how old is just misinformed!
Again, you may know engines, but I know racing these cars and how to set them up, and the differences of all sorts of tires, brands and the condition of those tires and their effects on performance.
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02-04-2014, 01:16 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
On man Greg, in all my years here on RL, that post has to rank up towards the top in depressing me. Mainly cause it comes from someone who we all highly respect as an expert in 928s. I just cannot grasp this finality of my 928 not being able to handle being occasionally tracked. Not raced, but tracked. A car that was in production for 18 yrs & typically cost $20k more than a 911 when new. My 1985 928 had a base price of $50k, that's over $108k in today's dollars.
I understand engineering problems, like current IMS bearing failures in the M96/M97 engines. But is there no answer to make my 928 fairly durable for a few DEs a year? I also understand about oil in the intake. Mine gets it like they all do. But they have found a cure for the IMS bearing failure. In 20+ years is there still is no reasonable cost effective solution for a 928 to do a handful of track days each year?
I'm having a bit of trouble grasping that a Porsche V8, built for the supercar it was in its day, can't handle two days of four 20 minute sessions at Roebling Road Raceway, where my RogerBox rarely gets above 4500 rpm due to the configuration of the track, even when I keep it in 3rd gear. Not Thunderhill; Willow; or VIR, with the long sweepers or long straights. No weird downshifting by me & my top speed on the front straight is 115-120 tops. Heck, there are Civics out there tearing it up & I have to accept that my V8 Supercar wasn't designed to be driven hard? I know it was designed to be for the executive to drive 140mph on the Autobahn. Isn't that kinda a race track???
As much as I love 928s, you have me wondering if I shouldn't have passed on the great deal I ran across a couple weeks ago on a supercharged Roush Mustang. I couldn't imagine selling my 928 for that. Please tell me something of what I could cost effectively do to limit the risk of doom & death to my beloved 928 due to oiling issues for 2-3 DEs a year?
I understand engineering problems, like current IMS bearing failures in the M96/M97 engines. But is there no answer to make my 928 fairly durable for a few DEs a year? I also understand about oil in the intake. Mine gets it like they all do. But they have found a cure for the IMS bearing failure. In 20+ years is there still is no reasonable cost effective solution for a 928 to do a handful of track days each year?
I'm having a bit of trouble grasping that a Porsche V8, built for the supercar it was in its day, can't handle two days of four 20 minute sessions at Roebling Road Raceway, where my RogerBox rarely gets above 4500 rpm due to the configuration of the track, even when I keep it in 3rd gear. Not Thunderhill; Willow; or VIR, with the long sweepers or long straights. No weird downshifting by me & my top speed on the front straight is 115-120 tops. Heck, there are Civics out there tearing it up & I have to accept that my V8 Supercar wasn't designed to be driven hard? I know it was designed to be for the executive to drive 140mph on the Autobahn. Isn't that kinda a race track???
As much as I love 928s, you have me wondering if I shouldn't have passed on the great deal I ran across a couple weeks ago on a supercharged Roush Mustang. I couldn't imagine selling my 928 for that. Please tell me something of what I could cost effectively do to limit the risk of doom & death to my beloved 928 due to oiling issues for 2-3 DEs a year?
my stuff is not that unique . its all stock. im not doing anything special when driving it. just basic stuff and preventative maintenance. I don't think it really has much to do with the power as long as you are under 400rwhp as proven by my lastest successes in 928 racing survival.
check out one of my last races here and see if you think im baby'ing it.
'
02-04-2014, 01:24 PM
#9
Archive Gatekeeper
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this means the right oil and some precautions driving it. this means the warm up and being in optimal gears around the track.
02-04-2014, 01:34 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Mark- can't remember if you've posted specifics before- in gory detail, what is your warmup procedure? Fire up the car and let it idle in the paddock at the 10 minute warning? The 5 minute warning? What oil temp are you shooting for before you head to the grid? We all know your on-track strategy, but what are the warm-up secrets?
Next, the on track glory. again, my car is ALL stock components around the engine . no anything. no breathers, no vents, no special lines. I did route one line a little higher so that it had a tall bend in it, so oil would have to travel up a ways before it could go to the intake, but that's it. still a stock hose by the way. amsoil..... make sure levels are full and off you go. redline all you want all day long. 1.5 g turns, etc.
Here is a typical race at sears point with a high g loacing 8 second duration carocell. actually longer than any single segment at willow springs (the 8-9 combo turn). I bang off the rev limiter at 2:12 so, im not short shifting. im on 335 hoosier R100 slicks and this set was actually new, (thankyou very much GREG. and by the way, the times were only about .5 seconds faster vs the good used ones I use) and by NO stretch are the tires you are using even in the same ball park!!!! toyo R888s at full tread is like a street tire until you shave it to a slick, like we ran in WCGT.
enjoy! the 928 can be run on the track with no issues. you just need to be prepared, know you have a good engine to start and have the right oil.
Now, I don't know why I need to say this, but everyone should have a camera in their car behind them so we can see what is going on. driving, engine sounds, etc........ why would you spend so much time and effort on a track car, take it out and then if it fails, not have anything to go on, that a camera could bring. they are cheap. 100 bucks buys you a gopro.
02-04-2014, 01:39 PM
#12
Archive Gatekeeper
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What oil temp number does the gauge have to have on it before you go Green?
02-04-2014, 01:43 PM
#13
Chronic Tool Dropper
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ps: When can you build an intake for Mark?
Perhaps time to take that refresher course in tact?
Perhaps time to take that refresher course in tact?
02-04-2014, 02:15 PM
#14
Nordschleife Master
I'm guessing that Rob's new Toyo's will pull more "G's" than any of your old worn out race tires....and you never experience anything like turn 2 or turn 8, at Willow.
However, I'm always open to ideas....even if I'm pretty sure I proved them wrong, 15 years ago.
Like I told Colin.....if you want to experiment to prove your point, I'm sure that Rob would be glad to take the engine you furnish, along with whatever pieces and oil you want to run and have Mark go test drive the car for another 25 minutes and see what happens.
Nothing personal, but if I'm going to do it and it's going to have my name associated with it....I think I'll stick to what I know and what I've done.
While I'm not positive what you do all day long....this is kind of what I do....all day long, day after day, year after year.....not just something I do a few times a year.
BTW.....the windage tray/crank scraper in the Widow certainly looks like it would restrict the oil return. I've always been very suspect of this system and would not use it.
My system is much simpler and does not. The oil can freely pass through (either direction actually), but the screen simply keeps it from hitting the pan and being bounced back up. Very basic, very simple. No down side.
However, I'm always open to ideas....even if I'm pretty sure I proved them wrong, 15 years ago.
Like I told Colin.....if you want to experiment to prove your point, I'm sure that Rob would be glad to take the engine you furnish, along with whatever pieces and oil you want to run and have Mark go test drive the car for another 25 minutes and see what happens.
Nothing personal, but if I'm going to do it and it's going to have my name associated with it....I think I'll stick to what I know and what I've done.
While I'm not positive what you do all day long....this is kind of what I do....all day long, day after day, year after year.....not just something I do a few times a year.
BTW.....the windage tray/crank scraper in the Widow certainly looks like it would restrict the oil return. I've always been very suspect of this system and would not use it.
My system is much simpler and does not. The oil can freely pass through (either direction actually), but the screen simply keeps it from hitting the pan and being bounced back up. Very basic, very simple. No down side.
So Greg, are you saying that you paid for Mark's engines that did originally fail on the track? Or just give him free labor fixing the engines after they blew up?
You have your theories, I have mine. There are many things I'm sure you have more experience with than I, and there are other things that I have more experience than you. Just because your way works for you does not mean everyone has to do it your way or they are wrong.
I have driven my own cars with and without slicks on the track. I've yet to nuke a bearing. I've also redone motors that have failed (on the track), and have sent them back out. One of them that failed popped a headgasket in the exact same fashion shown on this engine. There was little to no smoke. But when the engine was turned off, the plugs were pulled and showed signs of steam cleaning, they were put back in and the engine was hydrolocked. Yet while it was running, there was virtually no detectable smoke out the back. The bearings showed signs of detonation damage, and the sharktuner confirmed this. The fact that you can see Rob's gaskets pushed out on other cylinders, some not showing any steam cleaning effects shows to me that there was enough detonation occurring to damage the bearings in a short enough order.
There are some pulling high G loads on many engines which are not blowing up. This leads to 1 of 2 possibilities, either they are simply not pulling the same G force that Mark is to cause the problem, or they are doing something different.
If you are running on street tires, so long as you keep oil from entering your intake and therefor reduce the likelyhood of detonation, it is unlikely you will spin a bearing. However aids to keep the oil in the sump, and prevent the oil from running up and in to the heads during cornering will help drastically. That is what my aim is.
02-04-2014, 04:15 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
that's right, but we can try! aim for the stars and you might...... you know.
so funny.. im doing EVERYTHING wrong. wrong timing belt, wrong cam timing, wrong oil, I don't know how to drive, I run special tracks, I didn't prepare the surfaces on the heads right, wrong bolts, wrong tune, wrong plugs, wrong injectors, wrong wrong wrong......YET, I run the car as fast as anyone with the same power has run a 928 for the last 10 years..... Hmmmmm
and guess what...... 1:36.1 at laguna, (Anderson with 420hp ran 1:40.1, and then with 520rwhp, ran 1:34 all on DOTs, all with WCGT) 1:57 thunderhill, and 1:46 at sears 1:57 buttonwillow, and all over 15 years of racing, never missing a season. and rarely missing a race , never for a car problem!
Point is...... the car works, and Im also curious as to why mine is working so well and others have not been. many can be explained why.... others, still a mystery. That's why im here, not to match egos with Greg.... who I really like by the way and respect , even through this bantering. Ill probably be having him do my transmission if he will do it .
crank is modex
rods are corillo
Todd and Tim built and designed the short block in GreenBay. oil control ring was something kind of special ,that they figured out. the stock chrome ring would eat the Nicasil bores, so they found something softer. even gave me a spare set because they were discontinued in case I ever needed to rebuild again.