Early or Late body for Racing?
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Early or Late body for Racing?
Has anyone ever quantified the differences in bodies between the early and late cars with reference to which is better for the forces of racing?
Things like how the body changed at the suspension pick up points, or how its welded at the seams.
One main thing is the front of the rear lower arm - it went from welded bracket to a much beefier three point subframe - this was obviously for a reason.
I have noticed slight changes on the front end where things are welded together.
Any other input? Anecdotes? First hand or 4th hand knowledge?
Things like how the body changed at the suspension pick up points, or how its welded at the seams.
One main thing is the front of the rear lower arm - it went from welded bracket to a much beefier three point subframe - this was obviously for a reason.
I have noticed slight changes on the front end where things are welded together.
Any other input? Anecdotes? First hand or 4th hand knowledge?
#2
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Won't the addition of a proper cage reduce any structural differences in early v. late unibodies to rounding error?
#3
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The cage, however, moves the car from drivable on the street (safely and comfortably) to not-so-much.
#4
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Everything on the internet is true, and PET is never wrong.
#5
Race Director
this is an extremely simple answer........OB all the way....why....its much lighter....and cheaper....track cars by nature are disposable....S4+ cost more.....its simple math....
My perspective...my professionally built Black Widow (1989) was almost 2850lbs with an empty tank...Casper is nearly 2625 at the same standard....why?? Can two extra cams weigh that much? Need another example.... Kiborts racer (32V) off track weight is almost 3000lbs....mine 2825lbs....both cars are properly prepared (we both weight about 200lbs)
More info....16V engines are MUCH cheaper....and more plentiful.....and can make nearly the same power with minimal mods (euro cams)..... I have 3-4? engines in my shop that are 16V....all cost almost nothing (parts cars)....
Need an ANOTHER benefit.....while you are learning the lower HP of a stock 16V is a HUGE BENEFIT....honestly....any 32V is too much while you are learning the game.....
My perspective...my professionally built Black Widow (1989) was almost 2850lbs with an empty tank...Casper is nearly 2625 at the same standard....why?? Can two extra cams weigh that much? Need another example.... Kiborts racer (32V) off track weight is almost 3000lbs....mine 2825lbs....both cars are properly prepared (we both weight about 200lbs)
More info....16V engines are MUCH cheaper....and more plentiful.....and can make nearly the same power with minimal mods (euro cams)..... I have 3-4? engines in my shop that are 16V....all cost almost nothing (parts cars)....
Need an ANOTHER benefit.....while you are learning the lower HP of a stock 16V is a HUGE BENEFIT....honestly....any 32V is too much while you are learning the game.....
#6
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I can agree with the first part if we had some info as to why, but I disagree with the second. The later engines, once the oiling is dealt with, are much better for power and tunability.
So lets focus on the body still. Early bodies are cheaper to GET, but what needs to be done to them for stiffness. You can stick a cage in, but that is for good safety - I am not so sure it affects the suspension.
Can anyone even tell? Even F1 drivers are notorious for "being fast" or "being slow" but they have no idea WHY or what's causing it.
Massa was recently slow in the F car, and they changed the entire monocoque and he was faster.
So lets focus on the body still. Early bodies are cheaper to GET, but what needs to be done to them for stiffness. You can stick a cage in, but that is for good safety - I am not so sure it affects the suspension.
Can anyone even tell? Even F1 drivers are notorious for "being fast" or "being slow" but they have no idea WHY or what's causing it.
Massa was recently slow in the F car, and they changed the entire monocoque and he was faster.
this is an extremely simple answer........OB all the way....why....its much lighter....and cheaper....track cars by nature are disposable....S4+ cost more.....its simple math....
My perspective...my professionally built Black Widow (1989) was almost 2850lbs with an empty tank...Casper is nearly 2625 at the same standard....why?? Can two extra cams weigh that much? Need another example.... Kiborts racer (32V) off track weight is almost 3000lbs....mine 2825lbs....both cars are properly prepared (we both weight about 200lbs)
More info....16V engines are MUCH cheaper....and more plentiful.....and can make nearly the same power with minimal mods (euro cams)..... I have 3-4? engines in my shop that are 16V....all cost almost nothing (parts cars)....
Need an ANOTHER benefit.....while you are learning the lower HP of a stock 16V is a HUGE BENEFIT....honestly....any 32V is too much while you are learning the game.....
My perspective...my professionally built Black Widow (1989) was almost 2850lbs with an empty tank...Casper is nearly 2625 at the same standard....why?? Can two extra cams weigh that much? Need another example.... Kiborts racer (32V) off track weight is almost 3000lbs....mine 2825lbs....both cars are properly prepared (we both weight about 200lbs)
More info....16V engines are MUCH cheaper....and more plentiful.....and can make nearly the same power with minimal mods (euro cams)..... I have 3-4? engines in my shop that are 16V....all cost almost nothing (parts cars)....
Need an ANOTHER benefit.....while you are learning the lower HP of a stock 16V is a HUGE BENEFIT....honestly....any 32V is too much while you are learning the game.....
#7
Rennlist Member
For dedicated race cars (not 928's) I've blasted the whole shell back to bare metal, which lightens the car by a huge amount, preps it for strengthening plates and seam welding, and allows you to see everything. Then full seam weld and plates and gussets in high load areas, then full roll cage. Then paint and put back on and in only what you need for racing.
I'd always go for the latest model shell that I could get, with no previous impact history = less years of incremental fatigue at any high stress point, less chance of any corrosion, and body to factory chassis jig points.
If I was prepping a 928 I'd go for the latest I could get, unless I could find a straight low mile early shell with caput mechanicals.
A good multi point roll cage integrated into the car will not only add to safety it stiffens any car a HUGE amount .... 928's do flex and you can remove that totally with a good cage, and get precise suspension performance and control. Not much point setting up a car with a correct alignment if it aligns itself differently, as a consequence of flex, every time you throw it into a corner.
If you have a properly setup and caged race car on the jack stand points, you should be able to jack it up at any of the points a bit further, and the other point on that side will lift off the stand too .. try that with a non caged car and it will flex.
I'd always go for the latest model shell that I could get, with no previous impact history = less years of incremental fatigue at any high stress point, less chance of any corrosion, and body to factory chassis jig points.
If I was prepping a 928 I'd go for the latest I could get, unless I could find a straight low mile early shell with caput mechanicals.
A good multi point roll cage integrated into the car will not only add to safety it stiffens any car a HUGE amount .... 928's do flex and you can remove that totally with a good cage, and get precise suspension performance and control. Not much point setting up a car with a correct alignment if it aligns itself differently, as a consequence of flex, every time you throw it into a corner.
If you have a properly setup and caged race car on the jack stand points, you should be able to jack it up at any of the points a bit further, and the other point on that side will lift off the stand too .. try that with a non caged car and it will flex.
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#8
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks Dave. That's one of the possible realities for one of these cars.
#9
The Parts Whisperer
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Been there, did that,
Now it's up to Rob E
Now it's up to Rob E
For dedicated race cars (not 928's) I've blasted the whole shell back to bare metal, which lightens the car by a huge amount, preps it for strengthening plates and seam welding, and allows you to see everything. Then full seam weld and plates and gussets in high load areas, then full roll cage. Then paint and put back on and in only what you need for racing.
I'd always go for the latest model shell that I could get, with no previous impact history = less years of incremental fatigue at any high stress point, less chance of any corrosion, and body to factory chassis jig points.
If I was prepping a 928 I'd go for the latest I could get, unless I could find a straight low mile early shell with caput mechanicals.
A good multi point roll cage integrated into the car will not only add to safety it stiffens any car a HUGE amount .... 928's do flex and you can remove that totally with a good cage, and get precise suspension performance and control. Not much point setting up a car with a correct alignment if it aligns itself differently, as a consequence of flex, every time you throw it into a corner.
If you have a properly setup and caged race car on the jack stand points, you should be able to jack it up at any of the points a bit further, and the other point on that side will lift off the stand too .. try that with a non caged car and it will flex.
I'd always go for the latest model shell that I could get, with no previous impact history = less years of incremental fatigue at any high stress point, less chance of any corrosion, and body to factory chassis jig points.
If I was prepping a 928 I'd go for the latest I could get, unless I could find a straight low mile early shell with caput mechanicals.
A good multi point roll cage integrated into the car will not only add to safety it stiffens any car a HUGE amount .... 928's do flex and you can remove that totally with a good cage, and get precise suspension performance and control. Not much point setting up a car with a correct alignment if it aligns itself differently, as a consequence of flex, every time you throw it into a corner.
If you have a properly setup and caged race car on the jack stand points, you should be able to jack it up at any of the points a bit further, and the other point on that side will lift off the stand too .. try that with a non caged car and it will flex.
#10
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
More pointedly, has anyone ripped that rear lower arm bracket out of the body? The front lower bracket that was changed in the later body.
#11
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#12
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#13
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
No rust here. If that's the main issue suggested I could seam weld and secure it more.
I don't think that body will be used in racing but its still something worth looking at.
BC
I don't think that body will be used in racing but its still something worth looking at.
BC
#14
Former Vendor
Seam welding a car is only necessary if the factory spot welds are popping or cracking. Has anyone seen a 928 do this? I have not.
The Porsche Factory doesn't seam weld any of the Cup Cars or the RSR's.
Why?
Seam welding a car that is galvanized is going to cause more problems than any good it will ever do.
The Porsche Factory doesn't seam weld any of the Cup Cars or the RSR's.
Why?
Seam welding a car that is galvanized is going to cause more problems than any good it will ever do.
#15
Seam welding a car is only necessary if the factory spot welds are popping or cracking. Has anyone seen a 928 do this? I have not.
The Porsche Factory doesn't seam weld any of the Cup Cars or the RSR's.
Why?
Seam welding a car that is galvanized is going to cause more problems than any good it will ever do.
The Porsche Factory doesn't seam weld any of the Cup Cars or the RSR's.
Why?
Seam welding a car that is galvanized is going to cause more problems than any good it will ever do.