Looking for a 928 down under
12-08-2012, 04:17 AM
#31
Instructor
Thread Starter
Test drove my second 928 today an S version versus the earlier (and crap) non S model.
There was a big difference, which had a lot to do with the state of each car.
This one was not for sale and had just been bought, the new owner very kindly let me look at it and drive it!
Is there enough of a performance, braking, handling gain going up to the S3 to justify the extra complexities and cost over an S?
An S3 would be nice but an S can be had a bit cheaper.
Just curious as i need to have a short list and then will fly over to look at some cars.
Thanks
Adam
There was a big difference, which had a lot to do with the state of each car.
This one was not for sale and had just been bought, the new owner very kindly let me look at it and drive it!
Is there enough of a performance, braking, handling gain going up to the S3 to justify the extra complexities and cost over an S?
An S3 would be nice but an S can be had a bit cheaper.
Just curious as i need to have a short list and then will fly over to look at some cars.
Thanks
Adam
12-08-2012, 05:18 AM
#33
Nordschleife Master
There's not much difference between the 928S cars you'll find (and S2's which are also found here), and the S3, in terms of power. In fact, the S3 in stock form is probably slightly lower hp than an S/S2 - although it makes better power/torque lower down the range so feels more grunty, and the better exhaust manifolds and aftermarket chip options push it above the S2 pretty easily.
The single-piston 928S brakes (80-85) are easily good enough for most street use - although the 4-piston Brembo's on the S3 are another step up.
As far as injection and complexity, the 80-83 928S you're looking at are K-jet mechicanical fuel injection as found on various old mercs and is pretty straightforward. The 84-85 16V "S2" and '86 S3 all share LH-Jet 2.2 and are very similarly setup, with no real added difference in complexity in the S3 unless you need to replace bent valves; both have the same sensors, twin distributors etc.
I do think that rather than model or basic price, you should be focussing on how well (and verifiably) maintained the car is, and how much of the preventative and age-related catch-up maintenance has been done. Coming from an old-merc background, you'll be familiar with the concept of age-related failures, and the fact that stuff doesn't last forever. On a 928, the cost of doing all this stuff at the dealer is so exhorbitant, that very few of the cars received the required support, and jobs were "postponed" by the 2nd, 3rd, etc. owners, meaning a lot of the cars are basket cases.
I expect regular oil/coolant/brake fluid changes; what I mean by verifiable maintenance history is questions on which of the much more expensive 928 age/maintenance items like have the following been addressed:
Coolant hoses all replaced?
Mass AirFlow sensor, throttle sensor, Temp II sensor, Idle Valve all tested/replaced?
Intake removed and re-sealed? (gaskets, breather hoses, spark plug seals, vacuum lines, cam seals)
Ignition wires, dist. caps, rotors all replaced?
Timing belt done properly, and when? (and have the $$$ cam sprockets been replaced?)
Radiator replaced? (or at least been rebuilt with new plastic end-tanks)
Steering rack rebuilt/replaced?
Engine mounts ok?
Torque tube rebuilt/replaced?
Shocks replaced?
Auto box rebuilt?
AC and Cruise control working?
Mechanical radiator fan working properly?
Saving $1-4k off the purchase price makes little enough difference if the answer to more than a very few of the above items is "no", as you'll easily burn through that saving just in parts costs, and then some.
I'm not trying to scare you off purchase - just saying you need to approach them with a fair idea of how much each system repair is valued at. And to give you a laundry list of things to ask the owners about as negotiating points.
The single-piston 928S brakes (80-85) are easily good enough for most street use - although the 4-piston Brembo's on the S3 are another step up.
As far as injection and complexity, the 80-83 928S you're looking at are K-jet mechicanical fuel injection as found on various old mercs and is pretty straightforward. The 84-85 16V "S2" and '86 S3 all share LH-Jet 2.2 and are very similarly setup, with no real added difference in complexity in the S3 unless you need to replace bent valves; both have the same sensors, twin distributors etc.
I do think that rather than model or basic price, you should be focussing on how well (and verifiably) maintained the car is, and how much of the preventative and age-related catch-up maintenance has been done. Coming from an old-merc background, you'll be familiar with the concept of age-related failures, and the fact that stuff doesn't last forever. On a 928, the cost of doing all this stuff at the dealer is so exhorbitant, that very few of the cars received the required support, and jobs were "postponed" by the 2nd, 3rd, etc. owners, meaning a lot of the cars are basket cases.
I expect regular oil/coolant/brake fluid changes; what I mean by verifiable maintenance history is questions on which of the much more expensive 928 age/maintenance items like have the following been addressed:
Coolant hoses all replaced?
Mass AirFlow sensor, throttle sensor, Temp II sensor, Idle Valve all tested/replaced?
Intake removed and re-sealed? (gaskets, breather hoses, spark plug seals, vacuum lines, cam seals)
Ignition wires, dist. caps, rotors all replaced?
Timing belt done properly, and when? (and have the $$$ cam sprockets been replaced?)
Radiator replaced? (or at least been rebuilt with new plastic end-tanks)
Steering rack rebuilt/replaced?
Engine mounts ok?
Torque tube rebuilt/replaced?
Shocks replaced?
Auto box rebuilt?
AC and Cruise control working?
Mechanical radiator fan working properly?
Saving $1-4k off the purchase price makes little enough difference if the answer to more than a very few of the above items is "no", as you'll easily burn through that saving just in parts costs, and then some.
I'm not trying to scare you off purchase - just saying you need to approach them with a fair idea of how much each system repair is valued at. And to give you a laundry list of things to ask the owners about as negotiating points.
12-08-2012, 09:23 AM
#34
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I have an 87 S4 5 speed with LSD, rear air, and 63k on the clock. Always garaged, totally stock, with no cracks in the dash. Also have, a cover, all the factory repair books, and the original window sticker. If your interested email me at: stevenlevstik@hotmail.com
12-08-2012, 05:55 PM
#35
Instructor
Thread Starter
There's not much difference between the 928S cars you'll find (and S2's which are also found here), and the S3, in terms of power. In fact, the S3 in stock form is probably slightly lower hp than an S/S2 - although it makes better power/torque lower down the range so feels more grunty, and the better exhaust manifolds and aftermarket chip options push it above the S2 pretty easily.
The single-piston 928S brakes (80-85) are easily good enough for most street use - although the 4-piston Brembo's on the S3 are another step up.
As far as injection and complexity, the 80-83 928S you're looking at are K-jet mechicanical fuel injection as found on various old mercs and is pretty straightforward. The 84-85 16V "S2" and '86 S3 all share LH-Jet 2.2 and are very similarly setup, with no real added difference in complexity in the S3 unless you need to replace bent valves; both have the same sensors, twin distributors etc.
I do think that rather than model or basic price, you should be focussing on how well (and verifiably) maintained the car is, and how much of the preventative and age-related catch-up maintenance has been done. Coming from an old-merc background, you'll be familiar with the concept of age-related failures, and the fact that stuff doesn't last forever. On a 928, the cost of doing all this stuff at the dealer is so exhorbitant, that very few of the cars received the required support, and jobs were "postponed" by the 2nd, 3rd, etc. owners, meaning a lot of the cars are basket cases.
I expect regular oil/coolant/brake fluid changes; what I mean by verifiable maintenance history is questions on which of the much more expensive 928 age/maintenance items like have the following been addressed:
Coolant hoses all replaced?
Mass AirFlow sensor, throttle sensor, Temp II sensor, Idle Valve all tested/replaced?
Intake removed and re-sealed? (gaskets, breather hoses, spark plug seals, vacuum lines, cam seals)
Ignition wires, dist. caps, rotors all replaced?
Timing belt done properly, and when? (and have the $$$ cam sprockets been replaced?)
Radiator replaced? (or at least been rebuilt with new plastic end-tanks)
Steering rack rebuilt/replaced?
Engine mounts ok?
Torque tube rebuilt/replaced?
Shocks replaced?
Auto box rebuilt?
AC and Cruise control working?
Mechanical radiator fan working properly?
Saving $1-4k off the purchase price makes little enough difference if the answer to more than a very few of the above items is "no", as you'll easily burn through that saving just in parts costs, and then some.
I'm not trying to scare you off purchase - just saying you need to approach them with a fair idea of how much each system repair is valued at. And to give you a laundry list of things to ask the owners about as negotiating points.
The single-piston 928S brakes (80-85) are easily good enough for most street use - although the 4-piston Brembo's on the S3 are another step up.
As far as injection and complexity, the 80-83 928S you're looking at are K-jet mechicanical fuel injection as found on various old mercs and is pretty straightforward. The 84-85 16V "S2" and '86 S3 all share LH-Jet 2.2 and are very similarly setup, with no real added difference in complexity in the S3 unless you need to replace bent valves; both have the same sensors, twin distributors etc.
I do think that rather than model or basic price, you should be focussing on how well (and verifiably) maintained the car is, and how much of the preventative and age-related catch-up maintenance has been done. Coming from an old-merc background, you'll be familiar with the concept of age-related failures, and the fact that stuff doesn't last forever. On a 928, the cost of doing all this stuff at the dealer is so exhorbitant, that very few of the cars received the required support, and jobs were "postponed" by the 2nd, 3rd, etc. owners, meaning a lot of the cars are basket cases.
I expect regular oil/coolant/brake fluid changes; what I mean by verifiable maintenance history is questions on which of the much more expensive 928 age/maintenance items like have the following been addressed:
Coolant hoses all replaced?
Mass AirFlow sensor, throttle sensor, Temp II sensor, Idle Valve all tested/replaced?
Intake removed and re-sealed? (gaskets, breather hoses, spark plug seals, vacuum lines, cam seals)
Ignition wires, dist. caps, rotors all replaced?
Timing belt done properly, and when? (and have the $$$ cam sprockets been replaced?)
Radiator replaced? (or at least been rebuilt with new plastic end-tanks)
Steering rack rebuilt/replaced?
Engine mounts ok?
Torque tube rebuilt/replaced?
Shocks replaced?
Auto box rebuilt?
AC and Cruise control working?
Mechanical radiator fan working properly?
Saving $1-4k off the purchase price makes little enough difference if the answer to more than a very few of the above items is "no", as you'll easily burn through that saving just in parts costs, and then some.
I'm not trying to scare you off purchase - just saying you need to approach them with a fair idea of how much each system repair is valued at. And to give you a laundry list of things to ask the owners about as negotiating points.
and even then I think you would still fail
I know what potential lays ahead, both good and bad, just hoping that over the long haul the bad is minimal.That is a very thorough list, thankyou again! I am definitely looking for a well maintained car with a provable history and an enthusiast car would be best for this.
Cheers
Adam
12-09-2012, 08:09 PM
#36
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Hi Adam
I bought a car that was running well but in 6 years of owning my car I have done most of the things on Hiltons list plus more and if I haven't, it is in the planning stages. Get the big brakes if you can and I think it is a definite advantage if you can do most of the work yourself.
Did a 300 km run on the weekend on some twisty roads at a fast average speed and realized every cent I spent on this car paid me back ten fold. Grip is amasing, it just didn't feel like it was going to let go. If I did that drive in my daily driver (G6E Turbo) I would have been a bundle of nerves at the end but came out of the 928 very relaxed but exhilarated.
Goodluck.
I bought a car that was running well but in 6 years of owning my car I have done most of the things on Hiltons list plus more and if I haven't, it is in the planning stages. Get the big brakes if you can and I think it is a definite advantage if you can do most of the work yourself.
Did a 300 km run on the weekend on some twisty roads at a fast average speed and realized every cent I spent on this car paid me back ten fold. Grip is amasing, it just didn't feel like it was going to let go. If I did that drive in my daily driver (G6E Turbo) I would have been a bundle of nerves at the end but came out of the 928 very relaxed but exhilarated.
Goodluck.
12-09-2012, 08:38 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
How would you verify claimed services done on an enthusiast's car BY said enthusiast? You only have the same way as an undocumented car - reputation if any of the owner, observation, and gut feel, if the car passes the road test.
jp 83 Euro S AT 54k
jp 83 Euro S AT 54k
12-09-2012, 08:46 PM
#38
Instructor
Thread Starter
Hi Adam
I bought a car that was running well but in 6 years of owning my car I have done most of the things on Hiltons list plus more and if I haven't, it is in the planning stages. Get the big brakes if you can and I think it is a definite advantage if you can do most of the work yourself.
Did a 300 km run on the weekend on some twisty roads at a fast average speed and realized every cent I spent on this car paid me back ten fold. Grip is amasing, it just didn't feel like it was going to let go. If I did that drive in my daily driver (G6E Turbo) I would have been a bundle of nerves at the end but came out of the 928 very relaxed but exhilarated.
Goodluck.
I bought a car that was running well but in 6 years of owning my car I have done most of the things on Hiltons list plus more and if I haven't, it is in the planning stages. Get the big brakes if you can and I think it is a definite advantage if you can do most of the work yourself.
Did a 300 km run on the weekend on some twisty roads at a fast average speed and realized every cent I spent on this car paid me back ten fold. Grip is amasing, it just didn't feel like it was going to let go. If I did that drive in my daily driver (G6E Turbo) I would have been a bundle of nerves at the end but came out of the 928 very relaxed but exhilarated.
Goodluck.
12-09-2012, 08:53 PM
#39
Instructor
Thread Starter
As with any used car purchase there are no guarantees but hopefully a combination of the above can minimise the risks.
A proven history by a reputable sevice agent does not guarantee all is well anyway.
So a "provable" history is subjective!
Cheers
Adam
12-09-2012, 09:52 PM
#40
Advanced
I bought an '88 S4 in Jan 2012 which had lovely Venice Blue paint and a $6k redo of the interior. I had researched enough to know that the interior/paint work are two aspects which can be quite expensive to restore if they're in bad shape. My catch was the engine bay looked 'fine' for something 25 years old but a combination of hydraulic lock and manifold vacuum leak turned the car into a project for me and Buchanan Automotive in Sydney. 6 Months and more-than-the-price-of-the-car later I have a total engine-bay rebuild and torque tube which will be good for another 20-30 years.
Longer story shorter: i paid for about a decade's worth of neglect but on a car whose interior and exterior are (now) a match for it's incredible engine bay. I'm happy to have gone through the process knowing I don't need to restore all three aspects.
Also the saying went completely true for me - "the 928 is a $40k car, either buy one for 20 and put 20 into it, or buy one for 10 and put 30 into it...it's all the same" (of course depending on your devotion and/or taste)
Matt Hermans
'88 S4 Venice Blue
Sydney, Australia
Longer story shorter: i paid for about a decade's worth of neglect but on a car whose interior and exterior are (now) a match for it's incredible engine bay. I'm happy to have gone through the process knowing I don't need to restore all three aspects.
Also the saying went completely true for me - "the 928 is a $40k car, either buy one for 20 and put 20 into it, or buy one for 10 and put 30 into it...it's all the same" (of course depending on your devotion and/or taste)
Matt Hermans
'88 S4 Venice Blue
Sydney, Australia
12-10-2012, 03:58 AM
#41
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Hi Adam
I bought my 928 early this year - my second 928 and my 42nd car! If I had the funds I'd like try lots of different cars, old and new(ish).
My first 928 was an auto S. It sounded and went well, but had a poor interior and rather average paintwork. I replaced it with an E30 Beemer 325i, which I then compared to the 928 down my favourite road and couldn't decide which to keep! I made a bad choice..
The 928 I have now is super-original and I am really enjoying that part. It's a 4.5 but it is at least a manual, which makes it fun. Sometimes I wish I had a faster model but it's what I can afford and justify. We have two other vehicles for everyday use which makes owning an older car so much easier.
I suggest you make sure your new purchase has whatever is most important to you. For me it's a nice interior followed by a nice clean body. I can still make it go fast enough to be fun for me.
Good luck
Jim
I bought my 928 early this year - my second 928 and my 42nd car! If I had the funds I'd like try lots of different cars, old and new(ish).
My first 928 was an auto S. It sounded and went well, but had a poor interior and rather average paintwork. I replaced it with an E30 Beemer 325i, which I then compared to the 928 down my favourite road and couldn't decide which to keep! I made a bad choice..
The 928 I have now is super-original and I am really enjoying that part. It's a 4.5 but it is at least a manual, which makes it fun. Sometimes I wish I had a faster model but it's what I can afford and justify. We have two other vehicles for everyday use which makes owning an older car so much easier.
I suggest you make sure your new purchase has whatever is most important to you. For me it's a nice interior followed by a nice clean body. I can still make it go fast enough to be fun for me.
Good luck
Jim
12-10-2012, 07:59 AM
#42
Instructor
Thread Starter
It is good to read the stories of everyones purchases and their on going ownership. Hopefully I will be able to add to this soon.....
The car i am looking for has to be nearly perfect. I have enough projects with my old Mercedes, I want to just jump in and enjoy. The car has to be quicker and perform better than my e320, afterall no point owning my dream Porsche if my "family" sedan can out perform it
I have my eye on a few good ones and hopefully can report back here soon with my own story.
Thanks guys and keep it coming.
cheers
Adam
The car i am looking for has to be nearly perfect. I have enough projects with my old Mercedes, I want to just jump in and enjoy. The car has to be quicker and perform better than my e320, afterall no point owning my dream Porsche if my "family" sedan can out perform it
I have my eye on a few good ones and hopefully can report back here soon with my own story.
Thanks guys and keep it coming.
cheers
Adam
12-10-2012, 08:01 AM
#43
Instructor
Thread Starter
I have an 87 S4 5 speed with LSD, rear air, and 63k on the clock. Always garaged, totally stock, with no cracks in the dash. Also have, a cover, all the factory repair books, and the original window sticker. If your interested email me at: stevenlevstik@hotmail.com
12-16-2012, 05:31 AM
#44
Instructor
Thread Starter
Hi guys,
Another car that is on my short list, an 86 "S3", has a known issue of a leaking heater core. This has been by-passed and the heater is now non functional (ok for summer here but not winter).
How hard and how expensive (parts only) is it to replace the heater core? Is it a dash out job?
Thanks
Adam
Another car that is on my short list, an 86 "S3", has a known issue of a leaking heater core. This has been by-passed and the heater is now non functional (ok for summer here but not winter).
How hard and how expensive (parts only) is it to replace the heater core? Is it a dash out job?
Thanks
Adam
Last edited by ANF; 12-16-2012 at 05:58 AM.
12-16-2012, 06:45 AM
#45
Nordschleife Master
Hi Adam,
Hmm.. heater core leak is unusual. Whats the coolant-change history like? If the heater core has corroded, I'd be suspicious of the radiator and head gaskets.
The heater core can be reached - it takes about 4 hours of removing dash/console - less if you've done it before
.. this thread has pics on where it is:
https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...uator-arm.html
Are you sure the problem is a leaking core (coolant leak), or is it just excessive hot air so they've disabled the heater valve? HVAC vacuum leaks in any of the actuators will result in hot air all the time. See these two links:
HVAC stuff here: http://members.rennlist.com/pirtle/svc.html
"HVAC Vacuum Leak Testing" on this (awesome) page of writeups by Dwayne: http://www.dwaynesgarage.norcal928.org/
Hmm.. heater core leak is unusual. Whats the coolant-change history like? If the heater core has corroded, I'd be suspicious of the radiator and head gaskets.
The heater core can be reached - it takes about 4 hours of removing dash/console - less if you've done it before
.. this thread has pics on where it is:https://rennlist.com/forums/928-foru...uator-arm.html
Are you sure the problem is a leaking core (coolant leak), or is it just excessive hot air so they've disabled the heater valve? HVAC vacuum leaks in any of the actuators will result in hot air all the time. See these two links:
HVAC stuff here: http://members.rennlist.com/pirtle/svc.html
"HVAC Vacuum Leak Testing" on this (awesome) page of writeups by Dwayne: http://www.dwaynesgarage.norcal928.org/