Engine Oil Cooler
02-12-2012, 08:46 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
Kibort:
Sometimes you have good ideas and good advice...sometimes it is like you hit your head too many times!
Do you seriously think that 260 degree oil, in a race car, is a good thing?
Seriously?
Call Amsoil and get them to send you a document telling you that 260 degree oil is a good thing and that is what everyone whould be trying to achieve!
Seriously!
As far as street cars are concerned:
1. Install an undertray on your race car.
2. Go get it really good and warmed up, on a 95-100 degree day.
3. Stop and let it idle, with the A/C on, surrounded by a bunch of other super hot vehicles.
4. Measure the oil temperature, in the pan after 15 minutes.
5. Report back, after you have done this....no theory allowed. Simple testing.
.
Sometimes you have good ideas and good advice...sometimes it is like you hit your head too many times!
Do you seriously think that 260 degree oil, in a race car, is a good thing?
Seriously?
Call Amsoil and get them to send you a document telling you that 260 degree oil is a good thing and that is what everyone whould be trying to achieve!
Seriously!
As far as street cars are concerned:
1. Install an undertray on your race car.
2. Go get it really good and warmed up, on a 95-100 degree day.
3. Stop and let it idle, with the A/C on, surrounded by a bunch of other super hot vehicles.
4. Measure the oil temperature, in the pan after 15 minutes.
5. Report back, after you have done this....no theory allowed. Simple testing.
.
So, what im saying and you know this, is that the oil cooler on the side is minimally effective, and does work to take an edge out of 240 to 280 degree oil on or off the track. BUT, its not going to do more than take out about 10 degrees out of your racing oil or street driving temps. if it does, great, but i sure would like to hear how water at 190 to 200 degree oil, as measured at the top of the water bridge (which is the coolest possible) can bring down the oil temp of a 260 degree flow. keep in mind, and you know this too, that water heat exchanging against the oil cooler, is quite a bit hotter than the temp guage reads, RIGHT????so, do the math. get an IR gun and measure the temps of the oil at the base and at the top of the radiator. take an average. tell me what you get. FOR SURE, its not going to be the temp at the guage! its going to be an average. Ill go an do it right now!
Mark
02-12-2012, 08:47 PM
#32
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Kibort:
Sometimes you have good ideas and good advice...sometimes it is like you hit your head too many times!
Do you seriously think that 260 degree oil, in a race car, is a good thing?
Seriously?
Call Amsoil and get them to send you a document telling you that 260 degree oil is a good thing and that is what everyone whould be trying to achieve!
Seriously!
As far as street cars are concerned:
1. Install an undertray on your race car.
2. Go get it really good and warmed up, on a 95-100 degree day.
3. Stop and let it idle, with the A/C on, surrounded by a bunch of other super hot vehicles.
4. Measure the oil temperature, in the pan after 15 minutes.
5. Report back, after you have done this....no theory allowed. Simple testing.
Jeff:
There are multiple benefits to running the oil through the lower "oil only" late model cooler and through an oil cooler in the radiator. The obvious benefit is that on very hot days, when there is a lack of air circulation through the "lower cooler, the radiator cooler will remove the heat that the lower cooler can not remove.
Additonally, for people that live in cold weather, the "double" cooler arrangement will heat up the engine oil quicker, reducing wear and resistance caused by cold oil.
There is absolutely no (zero) downside.....and only good from a double oil coolers with "dual" heat exchanger mediums.
Sometimes you have good ideas and good advice...sometimes it is like you hit your head too many times!
Do you seriously think that 260 degree oil, in a race car, is a good thing?
Seriously?
Call Amsoil and get them to send you a document telling you that 260 degree oil is a good thing and that is what everyone whould be trying to achieve!
Seriously!
As far as street cars are concerned:
1. Install an undertray on your race car.
2. Go get it really good and warmed up, on a 95-100 degree day.
3. Stop and let it idle, with the A/C on, surrounded by a bunch of other super hot vehicles.
4. Measure the oil temperature, in the pan after 15 minutes.
5. Report back, after you have done this....no theory allowed. Simple testing.
Jeff:
There are multiple benefits to running the oil through the lower "oil only" late model cooler and through an oil cooler in the radiator. The obvious benefit is that on very hot days, when there is a lack of air circulation through the "lower cooler, the radiator cooler will remove the heat that the lower cooler can not remove.
Additonally, for people that live in cold weather, the "double" cooler arrangement will heat up the engine oil quicker, reducing wear and resistance caused by cold oil.
There is absolutely no (zero) downside.....and only good from a double oil coolers with "dual" heat exchanger mediums.
I must have missed it.
Thanks Greg.
02-12-2012, 08:49 PM
#33
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IIRC Smokey Yunick said that anything over 190 was cause for concern on oil temps.
While Smokey was just a garage owner from FL, he did have a clue about some things.
While Smokey was just a garage owner from FL, he did have a clue about some things.
02-12-2012, 08:55 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
intermediate clutch plate adjust/demystifying its function
pinning technique that is working on a failed int plate , still working after 2 years racing and street driving.
making AFM systems work and control fuel 100hp over their design
putting euro cams on US 4.7
larger brake systems using stock brake calipers on the S4 and now on the 84s
aligment setings for handlign and even wear
aerodynamic aides to the 928 using the aero charts and common downforce theory
how to mount rear wing without welding 20llbs of steel to the chassis, and why
the effects of wheel weight on acceleration
the effects of Hp vs engine torque on acceleration
rolling rear fenders to look showroom qualty
just to name a few!
pinning technique that is working on a failed int plate , still working after 2 years racing and street driving.
making AFM systems work and control fuel 100hp over their design
putting euro cams on US 4.7
larger brake systems using stock brake calipers on the S4 and now on the 84s
aligment setings for handlign and even wear
aerodynamic aides to the 928 using the aero charts and common downforce theory
how to mount rear wing without welding 20llbs of steel to the chassis, and why
the effects of wheel weight on acceleration
the effects of Hp vs engine torque on acceleration
rolling rear fenders to look showroom qualty
just to name a few!
02-12-2012, 08:57 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
I wouldnt ever WOT my engine unless it was over 190F.
(or maybe smokey ran mobil 1.
then, i would say he is a genius)
02-12-2012, 09:20 PM
#36
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Yea, seen all of those hacks.
intermediate clutch plate adjust/demystifying its function
pinning technique that is working on a failed int plate , still working after 2 years racing and street driving.
making AFM systems work and control fuel 100hp over their design
putting euro cams on US 4.7
larger brake systems using stock brake calipers on the S4 and now on the 84s
aligment setings for handlign and even wear
aerodynamic aides to the 928 using the aero charts and common downforce theory
how to mount rear wing without welding 20llbs of steel to the chassis, and why
the effects of wheel weight on acceleration
the effects of Hp vs engine torque on acceleration
rolling rear fenders to look showroom qualty
just to name a few!
pinning technique that is working on a failed int plate , still working after 2 years racing and street driving.
making AFM systems work and control fuel 100hp over their design
putting euro cams on US 4.7
larger brake systems using stock brake calipers on the S4 and now on the 84s
aligment setings for handlign and even wear
aerodynamic aides to the 928 using the aero charts and common downforce theory
how to mount rear wing without welding 20llbs of steel to the chassis, and why
the effects of wheel weight on acceleration
the effects of Hp vs engine torque on acceleration
rolling rear fenders to look showroom qualty
just to name a few!
02-12-2012, 09:26 PM
#37
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You just showed me everything I ever needed to know about you Mark.
I would have loved to have hung out with Smokey, he was my kind of guy, a thinking man, you should hang out with one also, if they can stand it.
I would have loved to have hung out with Smokey, he was my kind of guy, a thinking man, you should hang out with one also, if they can stand it.
I think you are smoking something . in fact, you should hang out with smokey, he sounds like your kind of guy. welcome to the 21 century. engines have more HP and actually they run best with oil temps over 200F. most race engines will be running well over 200F oil temps. Smokey hasnt been to the race track lately, i bet!
I wouldnt ever WOT my engine unless it was over 190F.
(or maybe smokey ran mobil 1. then, i would say he is a genius)
I wouldnt ever WOT my engine unless it was over 190F.
(or maybe smokey ran mobil 1.
then, i would say he is a genius)
02-12-2012, 09:36 PM
#38
Former Sponsor
try and find me someone that is REALLY racing a car with some power, and doesnt see 240 to 260 oil temps. its a fact of life, and physic. and yes, i think my 15 years of racing 928s with no engine issues, can can emperically challnge your claim that there is anything to worry about. how many race cars now have i had and/or been responsible for are still runnning now! a few of them, the engines have been torn down and no wear was found in the bearings , never anything in the filters and all oil reports have come back stellar!
So, what im saying and you know this, is that the oil cooler on the side is minimally effective, and does work to take an edge out of 240 to 280 degree oil on or off the track. BUT, its not going to do more than take out about 10 degrees out of your racing oil or street driving temps. if it does, great, but i sure would like to hear how water at 190 to 200 degree oil, as measured at the top of the water bridge (which is the coolest possible) can bring down the oil temp of a 260 degree flow. keep in mind, and you know this too, that water heat exchanging against the oil cooler, is quite a bit hotter than the temp guage reads, RIGHT????so, do the math. get an IR gun and measure the temps of the oil at the base and at the top of the radiator. take an average. tell me what you get. FOR SURE, its not going to be the temp at the guage! its going to be an average. Ill go an do it right now!
Mark
So, what im saying and you know this, is that the oil cooler on the side is minimally effective, and does work to take an edge out of 240 to 280 degree oil on or off the track. BUT, its not going to do more than take out about 10 degrees out of your racing oil or street driving temps. if it does, great, but i sure would like to hear how water at 190 to 200 degree oil, as measured at the top of the water bridge (which is the coolest possible) can bring down the oil temp of a 260 degree flow. keep in mind, and you know this too, that water heat exchanging against the oil cooler, is quite a bit hotter than the temp guage reads, RIGHT????so, do the math. get an IR gun and measure the temps of the oil at the base and at the top of the radiator. take an average. tell me what you get. FOR SURE, its not going to be the temp at the guage! its going to be an average. Ill go an do it right now!
Mark
You could confuse almost anything to prove your point....right or wrong. Somehow, you have taken this question of oil temperatures in a "street " car (read the original post) and "perverted" it into something else.
I'm not selling this hose set to people with race cars and telling them that it will solve their oil temperatures....I'm just trying to give the "street" car guys the ability to reduce their oil temperatures when they get into traffic, with their A/C on....and, yes, it will reduce their oil temperatures to just slightly above their water temperature.
When I personally raced an air cooled 911 (for years and years) I kept increasing the front oil coolers until I could maintain my oil temperature between 212 and 240 degrees. At 250, I'd pull off the track, or slow down until the oil could cool down.
I have always used this "rule" with all of my race cars and all of my customer race cars....and I've damn well worked on more race cars, over the years, than you have probably ever even touched...with great success.
You are welcome to run your oil as hot as you want....but I personally think you are "foolish" to be running around with 260 degree oil, much less encouraging others to ignore the fact that their oil is this hot.
Regarding minimum oil temperature, I believe that 215 degree is the lowest oil temperature that people should obtain....and I think that getting the oil to this temperature is very important. Water boils at 212 degrees and I think that removal of all water vapor is important, so 215 is a great "number", for me.
Again, note that using a "radiator" cooler, in addition to the "stock" cooler under the radiator (which is found on the later 928 models and the primary focus of this discussion) will also get the oil temperatures warmer, quicker, in cold weather.
02-12-2012, 10:08 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Mark:
You could confuse almost anything to prove your point....right or wrong. Somehow, you have taken this question of oil temperatures in a "street " car (read the original post) and "perverted" it into something else.
I'm not selling this hose set to people with race cars and telling them that it will solve their oil temperatures....I'm just trying to give the "street" car guys the ability to reduce their oil temperatures when they get into traffic, with their A/C on....and, yes, it will reduce their oil temperatures to just slightly above their water temperature.
When I personally raced an air cooled 911 (for years and years) I kept increasing the front oil coolers until I could maintain my oil temperature between 212 and 240 degrees. At 250, I'd pull off the track, or slow down until the oil could cool down.
I have always used this "rule" with all of my race cars and all of my customer race cars....and I've damn well worked on more race cars, over the years, than you have probably ever even touched...with great success.
You are welcome to run your oil as hot as you want....but I personally think you are "foolish" to be running around with 260 degree oil, much less encouraging others to ignore the fact that their oil is this hot.
Regarding minimum oil temperature, I believe that 215 degree is the lowest oil temperature that people should obtain....and I think that getting the oil to this temperature is very important. Water boils at 212 degrees and I think that removal of all water vapor is important, so 215 is a great "number", for me.
Again, note that using a "radiator" cooler, in addition to the "stock" cooler under the radiator (which is found on the later 928 models and the primary focus of this discussion) will also get the oil temperatures warmer, quicker, in cold weather.
You could confuse almost anything to prove your point....right or wrong. Somehow, you have taken this question of oil temperatures in a "street " car (read the original post) and "perverted" it into something else.
I'm not selling this hose set to people with race cars and telling them that it will solve their oil temperatures....I'm just trying to give the "street" car guys the ability to reduce their oil temperatures when they get into traffic, with their A/C on....and, yes, it will reduce their oil temperatures to just slightly above their water temperature.
When I personally raced an air cooled 911 (for years and years) I kept increasing the front oil coolers until I could maintain my oil temperature between 212 and 240 degrees. At 250, I'd pull off the track, or slow down until the oil could cool down.
I have always used this "rule" with all of my race cars and all of my customer race cars....and I've damn well worked on more race cars, over the years, than you have probably ever even touched...with great success.
You are welcome to run your oil as hot as you want....but I personally think you are "foolish" to be running around with 260 degree oil, much less encouraging others to ignore the fact that their oil is this hot.
Regarding minimum oil temperature, I believe that 215 degree is the lowest oil temperature that people should obtain....and I think that getting the oil to this temperature is very important. Water boils at 212 degrees and I think that removal of all water vapor is important, so 215 is a great "number", for me.
Again, note that using a "radiator" cooler, in addition to the "stock" cooler under the radiator (which is found on the later 928 models and the primary focus of this discussion) will also get the oil temperatures warmer, quicker, in cold weather.
Greg, you know me, i clearly get your point. yes, all that you say here. (well almost all) is right. sure, warm up time is increased...... hmmmm, maybe . the t-stat doesnt allow flow when its cold so i dont know if there is flow to the radiator oil cooler when cold. you can answer that.
you admit that 220ish is a good racing oil temp.
BUT, ill have to toss you in to the 21st century, their aint too many air cooled race car engines no more!
in the real racing world, TODAY, V8s, I6s making a bunch of HP are running oil temps of 250+ during races. i dont think anyone would pull over, especially using amsoil . you have seen my track record, youve seen the bearings out of engines Ive run for 10 years, certainly that is a testmate to the proof that 260-280oil temps can be seen without failures. get in a race car do day, you will see oil temps in this range.remember, and you know this, the air cooled 911s used the oil as its coolant, as well as the ducted fan system. It was designed to use the engine oil to help cool the engine as well.
so, ive been dropped on my head, but Alan says he gets 100 degree oil temp drop by using a side cooler on a hot day in LA and you dont say a word????? Pleeeezzzzz! show some fairness in you critisim!
02-12-2012, 10:14 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
I just went out on a high speed run with the race car! I just love driving that thing! anyway, got back into the "pits" (garage) and IR'ed the radiator . all at mid temp on the guage and rising as I let it climb with idle for about 10min. a little bit before the second white line, i get 210 on the outside of the radaitor and top hoses. in fact the entire radiator is about 210, no matter where i sense the temp but i would bet that the actual water temp coming out the heads is going to be much hotter than the bottom before it goes back into the engine. ( it was about 180 when i came into the garage, off the street with the temp kind of on the cool side)
02-12-2012, 10:19 PM
#41
Former Sponsor
Alan made a statement in which he actually measured a difference, in the "real world".
Short of calling him a liar, how do I dispute that?
If that is what he measured...that is what he measured.
You, however, are just slightly off, in your theory here.
Real world, theory. Real world, theory.
Besides that, I know you a lot better and I don't like to fight...which you never do.
You always just debate...which is one of things that I really admire about you!
02-12-2012, 10:20 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
you are going to disagree , just for the sake of disagreeing no matter what i say or do. the proof is in what i do. you have only talk to fall back on.
All i can say is things ive worked on have been successful, by any standards. i didnt do it alone. for the little list of things ive stumbled upon and made better or provided information on, i have got 100x that from this list and its members.;
Almost all my projects have had the list's valuable help.
Thats why I post. it makes us think and give us perspecitve to make the right decisions.
as far as the OP is concerned, i think its pretty clear that the side engine oil cooler does work to some extent, and it can be useful, especially in hot conditions in traffic, but its not a game changer device and probably would be hard to justify the work to install the system on a street car, especially on that was not used in heavy traffic or on the track.
02-12-2012, 10:25 PM
#43
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Yea Mark, I am all talk.
Greg,
you are going to disagree , just for the sake of disagreeing no matter what i say or do. the proof is in what i do. you have only talk to fall back on.
All i can say is things ive worked on have been successful, by any standards. i didnt do it alone. for the little list of things ive stumbled upon and made better or provided information on, i have got 100x that from this list and its members.;
Almost all my projects have had the list's valuable help.
Thats why I post. it makes us think and give us perspecitve to make the right decisions.
as far as the OP is concerned, i think its pretty clear that the side engine oil cooler does work to some extent, and it can be useful, especially in hot conditions in traffic, but its not a game changer device and probably would be hard to justify the work to install the system on a street car, especially on that was not used in heavy traffic or on the track.
you are going to disagree , just for the sake of disagreeing no matter what i say or do. the proof is in what i do. you have only talk to fall back on.
All i can say is things ive worked on have been successful, by any standards. i didnt do it alone. for the little list of things ive stumbled upon and made better or provided information on, i have got 100x that from this list and its members.;
Almost all my projects have had the list's valuable help.
Thats why I post. it makes us think and give us perspecitve to make the right decisions.
as far as the OP is concerned, i think its pretty clear that the side engine oil cooler does work to some extent, and it can be useful, especially in hot conditions in traffic, but its not a game changer device and probably would be hard to justify the work to install the system on a street car, especially on that was not used in heavy traffic or on the track.
02-12-2012, 10:28 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Not trying to be unfair....
Alan made a statement in which he actually measured a difference, in the "real world".
Short of calling him a liar, how do I dispute that?
If that is what he measured...that is what he measured.
You, however, are just slightly off, in your theory here.
Real world, theory. Real world, theory.
Besides that, I know you a lot better and I don't like to fight...which you never do.
You always just debate...which is one of things that I really admire about you!
Alan made a statement in which he actually measured a difference, in the "real world".
Short of calling him a liar, how do I dispute that?
If that is what he measured...that is what he measured.
You, however, are just slightly off, in your theory here.
Real world, theory. Real world, theory.
Besides that, I know you a lot better and I don't like to fight...which you never do.
You always just debate...which is one of things that I really admire about you!
And I know why you didnt challenge Alan. Alan, may have thought he saw this temp drop, and maybe he did, but possibly something else changed too.
It doesnt take away from the tests i have done to the exact contrary. ive run both with and without a cooler, on the track, on the street, over 10 years in 100+ degree heat as well, and in traffic too. but the oil temps always only stay in the 200 range, no matter what, if im not beating on the car. with or without an oil cooler, this what i see. at the track, 260 to 280 on the hottest and most competitive of races, with and without an oil cooler, but slightly cooler with the side oil cooler.
SO, thats when we look at reality, theory, and try and make sense of it all.
all i know is that the water is around boiling on the hottest of days, and the oil temps are right near there , if you are idling around in traffic. put some load on it, and you get more air flow and you get lower water temps, and higher oil temps. what does the oil cooler really do?? if i was to guess based on what ive seen, i would give it 10 to 20 degrees tops of help to the oil temps, and i think you would agree, and that would be a very helpful level of temp reduction.
100 degrees , just for having a cooler , is a little absurd.
02-12-2012, 10:37 PM
#45
Mark he did state in the first post, " I do probably two or three DE events a year.
Thanks
__________________
Jeffrey Spahn
"
Joe Gibb's racing NASCAR stated in one article that their 850 hp cup engines run at 220 degrees on full synthetic 5-20 oil as I recall. C and R racing makes a neat adjustable thermostat/remote oil filter for use with their racing rads with oil heat exchanger. Looks like they are pretty interested in controlling the oil temps.
Thanks
__________________
Jeffrey Spahn
"
Joe Gibb's racing NASCAR stated in one article that their 850 hp cup engines run at 220 degrees on full synthetic 5-20 oil as I recall. C and R racing makes a neat adjustable thermostat/remote oil filter for use with their racing rads with oil heat exchanger. Looks like they are pretty interested in controlling the oil temps.