Engine Oil Cooler
02-12-2012, 03:12 PM
#17
Race Car
depends on the sensor, right. what you have might not be accurate. i have a hard time believing that the running water temp is 180. if that was the case, run your car for a while and then pop the cap. 
, it will instantly explode, boil and overflow a gallon of water.
now, i do know something of oil temps , as i moniter them closely. i often drive in 100+ temps, and race in 110degree temps as well. my water always always always stays exactly in the middle of the two white lines. If it ever gets near the second white line, i have a problem. (ie fan not working, air in system, etc)
If you have oil pressure lights going off, you have bigger problems than oil temps. running mobil 1 i suspect, because that is the only oil where i was at buttonwillow and the slow corners , or during low rpm, i would see the oil pressure light going on. redline curred this . (oil pressure was running under 1bar in corners and under lower rpm ranges). with "other oils", the pressure wa 5 bar, all the time as long as the rpm was over 3000rpm, then it was normal at 3 bar idling. anyway, not to digress, but if you were in traffic and your oil got up to 220 to 230degrees, yet your water temps were in the mid zone of the guage. (call it 190-200f), then the stock oil cooler could dump a little heat in the cooling system for the fans to disapate. BUT, we are talking 220F oil trying to be cooled with 190F water. If that caused a 5 -10 degree drop in oil temp, i would be amazed. i think racing, ive seen 280F temps on really hot days and with the oil cooler,i never see 270F anymore with using the stock oil cooler. (vs not using the stock oil cooler in my 5 liter part euro )
also keep in mind where you are seeing the water temp on the guage too! the hot side of the radiator is the total passenger side and the upper zone as well, and as it flows and cools , it ends up at the bottom of the radiator. so, the net net, is the oil is not being cooled by the gauge read temps. its being cooled , or heated by a range of temps from top to bottom of the radiator. an average if you will. Well over boiling coming out of the engine, and 180 190 as it goes into the engine. think about that for a min.
The best way is to get a remote oil cooler for use if you race the car. OR, are stuck in stop and go traffic all the time in LA or phoenix.
, it will instantly explode, boil and overflow a gallon of water. now, i do know something of oil temps , as i moniter them closely. i often drive in 100+ temps, and race in 110degree temps as well. my water always always always stays exactly in the middle of the two white lines. If it ever gets near the second white line, i have a problem. (ie fan not working, air in system, etc)
If you have oil pressure lights going off, you have bigger problems than oil temps. running mobil 1 i suspect, because that is the only oil where i was at buttonwillow and the slow corners , or during low rpm, i would see the oil pressure light going on. redline curred this . (oil pressure was running under 1bar in corners and under lower rpm ranges). with "other oils", the pressure wa 5 bar, all the time as long as the rpm was over 3000rpm, then it was normal at 3 bar idling. anyway, not to digress, but if you were in traffic and your oil got up to 220 to 230degrees, yet your water temps were in the mid zone of the guage. (call it 190-200f), then the stock oil cooler could dump a little heat in the cooling system for the fans to disapate. BUT, we are talking 220F oil trying to be cooled with 190F water. If that caused a 5 -10 degree drop in oil temp, i would be amazed. i think racing, ive seen 280F temps on really hot days and with the oil cooler,i never see 270F anymore with using the stock oil cooler. (vs not using the stock oil cooler in my 5 liter part euro )
also keep in mind where you are seeing the water temp on the guage too!
the hot side of the radiator is the total passenger side and the upper zone as well, and as it flows and cools , it ends up at the bottom of the radiator. so, the net net, is the oil is not being cooled by the gauge read temps. its being cooled , or heated by a range of temps from top to bottom of the radiator. an average if you will. Well over boiling coming out of the engine, and 180 190 as it goes into the engine. think about that for a min. The best way is to get a remote oil cooler for use if you race the car. OR, are stuck in stop and go traffic all the time in LA or phoenix.
Dan
'91 928GT S/C
475hp/460lb.ft
02-12-2012, 03:16 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
yep, my oil temps are in the pan, just at the point where the oil touches the dipstick. (its a dipstick oil temp from VDO)
so, its just as all the oil is coming off the pistons, and from the heads, so its probalby a hot as it can get and be measured, sans measuring the oil at the heads.
I think all are valid measurements.. I would be curious to see what the exact water temps are vs the guage reading. again, if your oil was really only 180F, you could pop the expansion tank and nothing would happen. the water in the engine is REALLY hot. especially after flowing through 300-500 degree heads, where the water spends a lot of time, , also hugging the combustion chambers! someone put an IR guage on the upper radiator hose today!
so, its just as all the oil is coming off the pistons, and from the heads, so its probalby a hot as it can get and be measured, sans measuring the oil at the heads.
I think all are valid measurements.. I would be curious to see what the exact water temps are vs the guage reading. again, if your oil was really only 180F, you could pop the expansion tank and nothing would happen. the water in the engine is REALLY hot. especially after flowing through 300-500 degree heads, where the water spends a lot of time, , also hugging the combustion chambers! someone put an IR guage on the upper radiator hose today!
02-12-2012, 03:18 PM
#19
Archive Gatekeeper
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depends on the sensor, right. what you have might not be accurate. i have a hard time believing that the running water temp is 180. if that was the case, run your car for a while and then pop the cap. , it will instantly explode, boil and overflow a gallon of water.
, yeah, just a new temp sensor in the radiator, coupled with an 83oC thermostat that opens at, let's see, 181oF. I'd see up to 191 in the datalogs when running at WOT on Greg's dyno, but that was with maybe 20 mph airflow thru the radiator from the fans. So Ok, my temp readings are wrong. You win.
if you were in traffic and your oil got up to 220 to 230degrees, yet your water temps were in the mid zone of the guage. (call it 190-200f), then the stock oil cooler could dump a little heat in the cooling system for the fans to disapate. BUT, we are talking 220F oil trying to be cooled with 190F water.
Mark, I'm talking about a 90-95. There IS NO oil cooler in the radiator. Which is a stupid design if you're going to spend any time in traffic. Which occasionally happens in SoCal, I hear.
02-12-2012, 03:39 PM
#20
Electron Wrangler
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you are more than fine with the stock system. doing DEs, make sure u run some oil other than mobil 1, as i saw significant oil pressure drops at the track, but that doesnt change with an oil cooler. ive raced with the 928 stock oil cooler and HP levels from 200rwhp to 290rwhp with and without the cooler with no significant change to temps. at the track, they get to about 260F on a hot day and really running the car hard!
on the street, it will make no measureable difference at all, so i wouldnt worry about it.
ive raced with the 928 stock oil cooler and HP levels from 200rwhp to 290rwhp with and without the cooler with no significant change to temps. at the track, they get to about 260F on a hot day and really running the car hard!on the street, it will make no measureable difference at all, so i wouldnt worry about it.
It makes a very big diffrence at high ambient temps with no airflow (e.g. stop & go). Racing is not exactly stop & go right?
I have tried both with (side tank oil/water cooler in series ) and without (stock late S4) and the difference is very marked indeed.
For the OP - in your usage it sounds like waste of time.
Now some of the time the water is actually heating the oil up - I agree - and thats quite OK - in fact its a good thing.
BTW you can argue all you like as I suspect you will - BUT IT ACTUALLY REALLY WORKS - QED!
Alan
02-12-2012, 04:04 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
ok, i may be wrong about saying it doesnt work in traffic and super high temps. yes the oil can get near 220plus, and the water is keeped, by the sensor reading, around 190ish. BUT, what is the real temps of the water as it touches the heat transfer plates???? OVERALL! so yes, a side oil cooler that is use in the stock config, certainly can help a little. how much?? you keep on saying 190degree at the senor, but that is the lowest temp point that is being measure at the bottom of the radiator. the real temp is an average top to bottom, which will be a lot higher.
I didnt know that the 90 plus systems, didnt have the side oil cooler. certainly, in traffic, it is a nice to have, and certainly will help a little in extreme conditions. but for the OP'ster, i dont think its anything to worry about .
I didnt know that the 90 plus systems, didnt have the side oil cooler. certainly, in traffic, it is a nice to have, and certainly will help a little in extreme conditions. but for the OP'ster, i dont think its anything to worry about .
02-12-2012, 04:13 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
Mark its wonderful that you know this so certainly - however you are wrong.
It makes a very big diffrence at high ambient temps with no airflow (e.g. stop & go). Racing is not exactly stop & go right?
I have tried both with (side tank oil/water cooler in series ) and without (stock late S4) and the difference is very marked indeed.
For the OP - in your usage it sounds like waste of time.
Now some of the time the water is actually heating the oil up - I agree - and thats quite OK - in fact its a good thing.
BTW you can argue all you like as I suspect you will - BUT IT ACTUALLY REALLY WORKS - QED!
Alan
It makes a very big diffrence at high ambient temps with no airflow (e.g. stop & go). Racing is not exactly stop & go right?
I have tried both with (side tank oil/water cooler in series ) and without (stock late S4) and the difference is very marked indeed.
For the OP - in your usage it sounds like waste of time.
Now some of the time the water is actually heating the oil up - I agree - and thats quite OK - in fact its a good thing.
BTW you can argue all you like as I suspect you will - BUT IT ACTUALLY REALLY WORKS - QED!
Alan
now, i totally agree , in extreme stop and go driving, the system can work. but those applications are fairly rare. arizona, LA, in a lot of stop and go driving. yes, its a good idea, but dont lose sleep over it if you dont have one.
, yeah, just a new temp sensor in the radiator, coupled with an 83oC thermostat that opens at, let's see, 181oF. I'd see up to 191 in the datalogs when running at WOT on Greg's dyno, but that was with maybe 20 mph airflow thru the radiator from the fans. So Ok, my temp readings are wrong. You win. I don't use Mobil 1. Torco TR-1 20W50.
Mark, I'm talking about a 90-95. There IS NO oil cooler in the radiator. Which is a stupid design if you're going to spend any time in traffic. Which occasionally happens in SoCal, I hear.
But, in extreme cases. 220 to 250 oil temps (very rare on the street), the water can cool the oil, I agree.
You better believe that the ST2 coolant temp reading is correct because that's what the LH ECU uses to determine proper fueling. The highest I have ever seen mine go was ~201 deg F or so, but I have dual chargecoolers in front of the radiator.
Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft
Dan
'91 928GT S/C
475hp/460lb.ftby the way, are we talking the temp sensor at the botttom of the radaitor that turns the fans on or controlles the variable fans on the S4, or the temp sensor, which is still part of the post-cooling section of the radiator. put a sensor on the radiator inlet and tell me what you see!
02-12-2012, 04:44 PM
#23
Former Vendor
Kibort:
Sometimes you have good ideas and good advice...sometimes it is like you hit your head too many times!
Do you seriously think that 260 degree oil, in a race car, is a good thing?
Seriously?
Call Amsoil and get them to send you a document telling you that 260 degree oil is a good thing and that is what everyone whould be trying to achieve!
Seriously!
As far as street cars are concerned:
1. Install an undertray on your race car.
2. Go get it really good and warmed up, on a 95-100 degree day.
3. Stop and let it idle, with the A/C on, surrounded by a bunch of other super hot vehicles.
4. Measure the oil temperature, in the pan after 15 minutes.
5. Report back, after you have done this....no theory allowed. Simple testing.
Jeff:
There are multiple benefits to running the oil through the lower "oil only" late model cooler and through an oil cooler in the radiator. The obvious benefit is that on very hot days, when there is a lack of air circulation through the "lower cooler, the radiator cooler will remove the heat that the lower cooler can not remove.
Additonally, for people that live in cold weather, the "double" cooler arrangement will heat up the engine oil quicker, reducing wear and resistance caused by cold oil.
There is absolutely no (zero) downside.....and only good from a double oil coolers with "dual" heat exchanger mediums.
Sometimes you have good ideas and good advice...sometimes it is like you hit your head too many times!
Do you seriously think that 260 degree oil, in a race car, is a good thing?
Seriously?
Call Amsoil and get them to send you a document telling you that 260 degree oil is a good thing and that is what everyone whould be trying to achieve!
Seriously!
As far as street cars are concerned:
1. Install an undertray on your race car.
2. Go get it really good and warmed up, on a 95-100 degree day.
3. Stop and let it idle, with the A/C on, surrounded by a bunch of other super hot vehicles.
4. Measure the oil temperature, in the pan after 15 minutes.
5. Report back, after you have done this....no theory allowed. Simple testing.
Jeff:
There are multiple benefits to running the oil through the lower "oil only" late model cooler and through an oil cooler in the radiator. The obvious benefit is that on very hot days, when there is a lack of air circulation through the "lower cooler, the radiator cooler will remove the heat that the lower cooler can not remove.
Additonally, for people that live in cold weather, the "double" cooler arrangement will heat up the engine oil quicker, reducing wear and resistance caused by cold oil.
There is absolutely no (zero) downside.....and only good from a double oil coolers with "dual" heat exchanger mediums.
02-12-2012, 05:05 PM
#24
Race Car
The temp reading that a Sharktuner displays is from the TempII sensor mounted on top of the water bridge.
It is my understanding that the air/oil cooler under the radiator is ineffective in stop/go traffic because of insufficient airflow. Would providing airflow via some small fans provide an alternate solution to adding the coolant/oil cooler in series?
Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft
It is my understanding that the air/oil cooler under the radiator is ineffective in stop/go traffic because of insufficient airflow. Would providing airflow via some small fans provide an alternate solution to adding the coolant/oil cooler in series?
Dan
'91 928GT S/C
475hp/460lb.ft
02-12-2012, 05:24 PM
#25
Race Director
Kibort:
Sometimes you have good ideas and good advice...sometimes it is like you hit your head too many times!
Do you seriously think that 260 degree oil, in a race car, is a good thing?
Seriously?
Call Amsoil and get them to send you a document telling you that 260 degree oil is a good thing and that is what everyone whould be trying to achieve!
Seriously!
As far as street cars are concerned:
1. Install an undertray on your race car.
2. Go get it really good and warmed up, on a 95-100 degree day.
3. Stop and let it idle, with the A/C on, surrounded by a bunch of other super hot vehicles.
4. Measure the oil temperature, in the pan after 15 minutes.
5. Report back, after you have done this....no theory allowed. Simple testing.
Jeff:
There are multiple benefits to running the oil through the lower "oil only" late model cooler and through an oil cooler in the radiator. The obvious benefit is that on very hot days, when there is a lack of air circulation through the "lower cooler, the radiator cooler will remove the heat that the lower cooler can not remove.
Additonally, for people that live in cold weather, the "double" cooler arrangement will heat up the engine oil quicker, reducing wear and resistance caused by cold oil.
There is absolutely no (zero) downside.....and only good from a double oil coolers with "dual" heat exchanger mediums.
Sometimes you have good ideas and good advice...sometimes it is like you hit your head too many times!
Do you seriously think that 260 degree oil, in a race car, is a good thing?
Seriously?
Call Amsoil and get them to send you a document telling you that 260 degree oil is a good thing and that is what everyone whould be trying to achieve!
Seriously!
As far as street cars are concerned:
1. Install an undertray on your race car.
2. Go get it really good and warmed up, on a 95-100 degree day.
3. Stop and let it idle, with the A/C on, surrounded by a bunch of other super hot vehicles.
4. Measure the oil temperature, in the pan after 15 minutes.
5. Report back, after you have done this....no theory allowed. Simple testing.
Jeff:
There are multiple benefits to running the oil through the lower "oil only" late model cooler and through an oil cooler in the radiator. The obvious benefit is that on very hot days, when there is a lack of air circulation through the "lower cooler, the radiator cooler will remove the heat that the lower cooler can not remove.
Additonally, for people that live in cold weather, the "double" cooler arrangement will heat up the engine oil quicker, reducing wear and resistance caused by cold oil.
There is absolutely no (zero) downside.....and only good from a double oil coolers with "dual" heat exchanger mediums.
I really do wonder how much hotter my oil is where I am reading the temp...since its essentially right in the journal just after the pump and filter....
At the last lemons race I was consistently seeing temps between 240-275F depending on RPM-traffic.....water temps were always 2nd white line or just below....digital gauge was showing 195F-205F....
02-12-2012, 05:51 PM
#26
Former Vendor
The temp reading that a Sharktuner displays is from the TempII sensor mounted on top of the water bridge.
It is my understanding that the air/oil cooler under the radiator is ineffective in stop/go traffic because of insufficient airflow. Would providing airflow via some small fans provide an alternate solution to adding the coolant/oil cooler in series?
Dan
'91 928GT S/C 475hp/460lb.ft
It is my understanding that the air/oil cooler under the radiator is ineffective in stop/go traffic because of insufficient airflow. Would providing airflow via some small fans provide an alternate solution to adding the coolant/oil cooler in series?
Dan
'91 928GT S/C
475hp/460lb.ftBut think how easy it is to simply add another hose (to a set of hoses that are probably already leaking.) Lots of people (like Jeff, the OP) have a radiator with an empty cooler just sitting there.
And then, the engine warms up faster, in cold weather, too!
02-12-2012, 07:59 PM
#27
Former Vendor
so for those of us that have already replaced our radiators and oil cooler lines adding fans to the cooler should help.... I had looked an some span 4" fans and thought about installing one on each end of the cooler... I have a relatively new factory radiator.... I guess i could add the end tank and cooler to my radiator....
Seems like getting large enough fans that will actually move enough air through the oil cooler to be of a benefit would be difficult, in that relatively small area, but it would certainly make a great product!
And the starter that you "created" obviously shows that you have the ability to engineer things! Great job!
I'm envisioning 6 people running down to their local electrical supply house/ordering fans online, tomorrow....beating each other to death trying to make a product that fits a handfull of vehicles.
02-12-2012, 08:01 PM
#28
Electron Wrangler
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
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At up to 95F ambient no major issues (oil still hot but pressure OK) , at 110F ambient major oiling issues (pressure alerts at idle due to extreme temp related thinning)
Switching to Amsoil allowed for better hot pressures (Mark you are correct on this one) - but temp was still too high for ideal oil performance. Adding a post air/oil side tank oil/water makes for immediate improvement in these cases.
Alan
02-12-2012, 08:36 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
I have a temp sensor tapped into in the side of the sump. Summertime Oil temps at 280F+ before, 190-210F now.
At up to 95F ambient no major issues (oil still hot but pressure OK) , at 110F ambient major oiling issues (pressure alerts at idle due to extreme temp related thinning)
Switching to Amsoil allowed for better hot pressures (Mark you are correct on this one) - but temp was still too high for ideal oil performance. Adding a post air/oil side tank oil/water makes for immediate improvement in these cases.
Alan
At up to 95F ambient no major issues (oil still hot but pressure OK) , at 110F ambient major oiling issues (pressure alerts at idle due to extreme temp related thinning)
Switching to Amsoil allowed for better hot pressures (Mark you are correct on this one) - but temp was still too high for ideal oil performance. Adding a post air/oil side tank oil/water makes for immediate improvement in these cases.
Alan
I drive day to day in hot 100F temps all summer long and have ALWAYS had 5+bar pressure at any rpm over 3000,and 3 bar min at idle.
i just have to say, from MY experience, i went fom no side cooler to having a side cooler and didnt see more than a 10 degree differnce. if you work out the LOGIC here, of what the oil temps are and what the water temps are, that is probably all you could expect to gain. ifyou saw a 100 degree drop in oil tempurature, just fronm adding this magical side tank, you could be a millionair. even well designed coolers dont give that kind of temp drop. it just isnt physically possible. the temps you see day to day on a 100 degree day is what i see. 180 to 190 and i too have the side oil cooler. BUT, guess what, its the same temps i see with my 300hp 5 liter and scot sees it too. 180 -190F temps, with NO side oil cooler. So, i think we need a little more testing or proof here, because i think everyone that knows me and sees my cars have seen these temps at the track and on the street.