My S4 is dead and gone
01-11-2012, 09:38 PM
#121
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Thread Starter
I'm so sorry for your loss Ather, I'm relieved you and your daughter are unhurt and wish you well with the insurance company. Please let us know how you fair and which company you use. Your terrible experience has inspired me to replace all the soft lines with the GregBBRD set (3). I just got off the phone with Tom at 928 Int.. $357.00 w/ shipping, a 'fire proof' car priceless. Again, good luck Ather. Brian
As for my insurance company, I used Amica and so far they have been great. They appraised the replacement cost at $9500 + tax and are already preparing the check.
01-11-2012, 10:10 PM
#122
Former Sponsor
Hard to sell something no one knows about, but I understand, very well, that there are only so many hours in a day, and the good people at 928 International probably haven't had time to get these hoses onto their website.
I've got to drop a transmission off there, in the morning. I'll see if there is anything I can do to get these lines up on their site.
01-11-2012, 10:20 PM
#123
Former Sponsor
I like your U-hose and possibly the hose that goes over the cam cover. All of your stuff looks Mil-Spec.I've completely redone that hose that runs over the valve cover. I've always disliked the steel portion that people bend out of the way to work on the right valve cover.
My "new" replacement hose attaches at the stock fitting over near the inner fender panel and then goes forward, runs outboard of the air duct on the cam gear cover, and then runs around the front of the engine to the fuel damper. It can be routed so that it doesn't touch any "water" related pieces, however I install a "heat shield/flame guard" over the top of this hose, in case it does touch any of the water hoses. This is a more elegant solution to the stock line, in my opinion.
For those of you that absolutely need to have that stock steel line running over the top of the valve cover, I still do those, too. These are avialable on an exchange basis, only....I need the stock steel lines back to weld a fitting onto them and have them replated.
01-11-2012, 10:29 PM
#124
Rennlist Member
That might explain why all the sales, to date, have been to people that were at Sharktoberfest.
Hard to sell something no one knows about.
I've got to drop a transmission off there, in the morning. I'll see if there is anything I can do to get these lines up on their site.
Hard to sell something no one knows about.
I've got to drop a transmission off there, in the morning. I'll see if there is anything I can do to get these lines up on their site.
01-11-2012, 10:41 PM
#125
Rest in Peace
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I'm so sorry for your loss Ather, I'm relieved you and your daughter are unhurt and wish you well with the insurance company. Please let us know how you fair and which company you use. Your terrible experience has inspired me to replace all the soft lines with the GregBBRD set (3). I just got off the phone with Tom at 928 Int.. $357.00 w/ shipping, a 'fire proof' car priceless. Again, good luck Ather. Brian
Only doing a few of the hoses is not going to make your car fire proof, hell doing all of the hoses on the car is not going to do that.
01-11-2012, 10:48 PM
#126
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I figure that if Porsche thought that was the correct way to do it, they would have installed hoses with hose clamps from the factory....it would have been way cheaper for them to do it this way. Note that the only fuel hose, in a stock vehicle, with clamps is the "suction" hose that runs between the tank and the pump.
I will take you to task over one piece of information you keep repeating that is just not true. You keep saying the Porsche hoses have a crimped ferrule on them – not true in the real sense of the word "crimped". A real crimp is where a ferrule is passed over the OD of the hose and swaged down with high pressure to trap the hose against the fitting.
Every 928 hose that I have removed from a 928 and all the new fuel hoses I have supplied for the 928 from Porsche have what can only be referred to as a cosmetic cover. A very thin and flimsy cover that certainly would not serve as a crimp in the real sense of the word. At best it lightly grips the outside surface of the hose and certainly does not compress the hose on to the barbed fitting in any way. In fact in most cases the cover can be spun on the hose indicating no crimp at all.
The design used by Porsche on the 928 and many other cars of that era for fuel hoses of this low pressure was the barbed fitting. The barbed fitting is like an upside down Christmas tree in shape. The ID of the correct EFI hose is passed over the barbed fitting as if pulling it down over the top of a Christmas tree. Once in place and pressure is applied the hose will try and pull away from the fitting – pressure axial end thrust. Here is where it is clever – the barbs cut into the inside surface of the hose preventing it from moving away from the fitting. The fitting itself, with no so called crimp, is capable of achieving parameters way in excess of the working conditions.
This was an automotive design used by Porsche. Old but effective. This coupled with the state of the art multi fuel compatibility hose is a good way to go. Effective and reasonably priced. The addition of the correct EFI clamp acts as double redundancy and replaces the none effective metal cover. Far more pressure is applied by a clamp to the hose onto the barbed fitting than ever was with the metal cover. Better to be safe than sorry. I think that is why you used such a high spec hose.
Your hose set is comparable to the Constantine Super Clamp – the very best for the application but at a price and you have to remove the TT and drop the gearbox to fit it. You can also use the PKlamp at a fraction of the cost and labor time and nearly get the same result. Not the best but adequate in most circumstances.
If you want the very best solution to replacing the fuel hoses on the 928 than the GB set is the way to go.
__________________
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014
928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
Does it have the "Do It Yourself" manual transmission, or the superior "Fully Equipped by Porsche" Automatic Transmission?
George Layton March 2014928 Owners are ".....a secret sect of quietly assured Porsche pragmatists who in near anonymity appreciate the prodigious, easy going prowess of the 928."
01-11-2012, 10:51 PM
#127
Sorry for your loss, sounds as though it has inspired another group to replace their fuel lines, so good is coming from your tragedy.
When I replaced my lines on the '85, the line to the right of the rear U line looked fine at first, until you flexed it. Then it revealed many hairline cracks on the backside, very troubling to see. Next, when I moved the shielded grey electrical lines with the brown sheathing located directly below this hose, some gas drained out where the tan/brown sheathing ended! Man that was scary to see!! I was speechless, Gas collecting inside the sheathing right next to electrical lines(even if those were also shielded)! Couldn't replace that hose fast enough!
GB's fuel lines are very impressive. Thinkin long term they look like the way to go to me.
When I replaced my lines on the '85, the line to the right of the rear U line looked fine at first, until you flexed it. Then it revealed many hairline cracks on the backside, very troubling to see. Next, when I moved the shielded grey electrical lines with the brown sheathing located directly below this hose, some gas drained out where the tan/brown sheathing ended! Man that was scary to see!! I was speechless, Gas collecting inside the sheathing right next to electrical lines(even if those were also shielded)! Couldn't replace that hose fast enough!
GB's fuel lines are very impressive. Thinkin long term they look like the way to go to me.
01-11-2012, 11:06 PM
#128
btw, my new lines were fuel rated hose from NAPA, cut to length, with efi clamps. On the U hose, I cut off the thin outside cover on the existing Porsche fittings that Roger Doger described, then re-used it with efi clamps. So far so good. And I feel good about them for now(fingers crossed). And I would have no problems using Roger's replacement set with confidence either of course. When I did mine about 4 years ago, I spoke to him & IIRC, he was just starting the process of putting his kits together. Or maybe he was out of them at the time. My memory is fadin as fast as my hairline!
Guess the GBs hoses just look so incredibly awesome, even though they aren't cheap & will be hidden anyways. Just knowing those monsters are under your hood would make you sleep better at night. Much less when your cruising down the highway! Wasn't the 928 all about top of the line from the get go anyways yes??
Guess the GBs hoses just look so incredibly awesome, even though they aren't cheap & will be hidden anyways. Just knowing those monsters are under your hood would make you sleep better at night. Much less when your cruising down the highway! Wasn't the 928 all about top of the line from the get go anyways yes??
01-11-2012, 11:54 PM
#129
Former Sponsor
Greg I think your hoses are wonderful and way over spec for the application – I think that is a good thing. Thanks, Roger. I've worked very hard at making the ends and pieces that these cars need. Having a 2000psi burst for a hose that rarely sees 70 psi is good "belt & braces" stuff - more power to you. Unfortunately over spec means a high price and at circa $1000 for a set of 87 plus hoses that is a lot of money. Not nearly that much....let's not blow the price up any bigger than it already is. I need to be selling your hoses as there is money to be made. Do you fly in with free beer and personaly fit the hoses - just kidding. Like I said before, the hose is the cheap part of the whole assembly. I wish I was making all that money, but buying those 90 degree metric fittings is like buying chunks of gold. To give you a better idea, the front fuel line that runs from the damper to the fuel rail retails for $85.00...it has two straight metric hose ends on it. The same length hose, with two 90s on it (rear damper to regulator) retails for $155.00.
The difference is the fittings.
I'm working on getting something better and more ecconomical....it takes time.
I will take you to task over one piece of information you keep repeating that is just not true. You keep saying the Porsche hoses have a crimped ferrule on them – not true in the real sense of the word "crimped". A real crimp is where a ferrule is passed over the OD of the hose and swaged down with high pressure to trap the hose against the fitting. I stand corrected. You are correct. On an '87on, the fuel lines on the engine are that plastic material covered with a protective layer of rubber material, with end pieces that look like crimps. The plastic material is like "push lock" in that it has neither clamps nor crimps, but is forced over barbs. The rear pressure line from the fuel pump to the chassis is a rubber hose that is crimped.
Every 928 hose that I have removed from a 928 and all the new fuel hoses I have supplied for the 928 from Porsche have what can only be referred to as a cosmetic cover. A very thin and flimsy cover that certainly would not serve as a crimp in the real sense of the word. At best it lightly grips the outside surface of the hose and certainly does not compress the hose on to the barbed fitting in any way. In fact in most cases the cover can be spun on the hose indicating no crimp at all. Agreed. That cover simply "covers" the inner plastic hose that is slipped over the barb.
The design used by Porsche on the 928 and many other cars of that era for fuel hoses of this low pressure was the barbed fitting. The barbed fitting is like an upside down Christmas tree in shape. The ID of the correct EFI hose is passed over the barbed fitting as if pulling it down over the top of a Christmas tree. Once in place and pressure is applied the hose will try and pull away from the fitting – pressure axial end thrust. Here is where it is clever – the barbs cut into the inside surface of the hose preventing it from moving away from the fitting. The fitting itself, with no so called crimp, is capable of achieving parameters way in excess of the working conditions. Agreed, however keep in mind that the material over the barb is not rubber, but a plastic material.
This was an automotive design used by Porsche. Old but effective. This coupled with the state of the art multi fuel compatibility hose is a good way to go. Effective and reasonably priced. The addition of the correct EFI clamp acts as double redundancy and replaces the none effective metal cover. Far more pressure is applied by a clamp to the hose onto the barbed fitting than ever was with the metal cover. Better to be safe than sorry. I think that is why you used such a high spec hose. I haven't used one of your kits, but from what I read, you are using a rubber hose, instead of the plastic OE hose? I have very high grade "push-lock" barbs that go on very high quality Goodyear rubber hose designed for push-lock fittings. The barbs on these hose ends are very agressive...much more so than the barbs on the OE fittings....and they require no hose clamps, at all. I get very nervous when mixing pieces that were not originally designed to go together. I'm guessing that when you install your hose, it can be pulled back off of the barbed section....unlike the more aggressive "push lock" stuff which I have in stock. The addition of the hose clamp certainly keeps the hose from slipping off, but I'd submit that the hose clamp only covers a maximum of one barb. That would make me worry more than I do already....
Your hose set is comparable to the Constantine Super Clamp – the very best for the application but at a price and you have to remove the TT and drop the gearbox to fit it. You can also use the PKlamp at a fraction of the cost and labor time and nearly get the same result. Not the best but adequate in most circumstances.
If you want the very best solution to replacing the fuel hoses on the 928 than the GB set is the way to go.
The difference is the fittings.
I'm working on getting something better and more ecconomical....it takes time.
I will take you to task over one piece of information you keep repeating that is just not true. You keep saying the Porsche hoses have a crimped ferrule on them – not true in the real sense of the word "crimped". A real crimp is where a ferrule is passed over the OD of the hose and swaged down with high pressure to trap the hose against the fitting. I stand corrected. You are correct. On an '87on, the fuel lines on the engine are that plastic material covered with a protective layer of rubber material, with end pieces that look like crimps. The plastic material is like "push lock" in that it has neither clamps nor crimps, but is forced over barbs. The rear pressure line from the fuel pump to the chassis is a rubber hose that is crimped.
Every 928 hose that I have removed from a 928 and all the new fuel hoses I have supplied for the 928 from Porsche have what can only be referred to as a cosmetic cover. A very thin and flimsy cover that certainly would not serve as a crimp in the real sense of the word. At best it lightly grips the outside surface of the hose and certainly does not compress the hose on to the barbed fitting in any way. In fact in most cases the cover can be spun on the hose indicating no crimp at all. Agreed. That cover simply "covers" the inner plastic hose that is slipped over the barb.
The design used by Porsche on the 928 and many other cars of that era for fuel hoses of this low pressure was the barbed fitting. The barbed fitting is like an upside down Christmas tree in shape. The ID of the correct EFI hose is passed over the barbed fitting as if pulling it down over the top of a Christmas tree. Once in place and pressure is applied the hose will try and pull away from the fitting – pressure axial end thrust. Here is where it is clever – the barbs cut into the inside surface of the hose preventing it from moving away from the fitting. The fitting itself, with no so called crimp, is capable of achieving parameters way in excess of the working conditions. Agreed, however keep in mind that the material over the barb is not rubber, but a plastic material.
This was an automotive design used by Porsche. Old but effective. This coupled with the state of the art multi fuel compatibility hose is a good way to go. Effective and reasonably priced. The addition of the correct EFI clamp acts as double redundancy and replaces the none effective metal cover. Far more pressure is applied by a clamp to the hose onto the barbed fitting than ever was with the metal cover. Better to be safe than sorry. I think that is why you used such a high spec hose. I haven't used one of your kits, but from what I read, you are using a rubber hose, instead of the plastic OE hose? I have very high grade "push-lock" barbs that go on very high quality Goodyear rubber hose designed for push-lock fittings. The barbs on these hose ends are very agressive...much more so than the barbs on the OE fittings....and they require no hose clamps, at all. I get very nervous when mixing pieces that were not originally designed to go together. I'm guessing that when you install your hose, it can be pulled back off of the barbed section....unlike the more aggressive "push lock" stuff which I have in stock. The addition of the hose clamp certainly keeps the hose from slipping off, but I'd submit that the hose clamp only covers a maximum of one barb. That would make me worry more than I do already....
Your hose set is comparable to the Constantine Super Clamp – the very best for the application but at a price and you have to remove the TT and drop the gearbox to fit it. You can also use the PKlamp at a fraction of the cost and labor time and nearly get the same result. Not the best but adequate in most circumstances.
If you want the very best solution to replacing the fuel hoses on the 928 than the GB set is the way to go.
I think that Roger is certainly offering a kit that works very well...he always seems to offer great products.
I have no doubt that this solution will last for several (many) years and when it does leak, the replacement hose and clamps are very ecconomical to replace.
My goals are to make pieces that last as long as the original pieces did. I'm using a very high grade hose to accomplish this. Both Goodridge and I offer a lifetime warranty on this hose. The hose ends are...well, the only thing I can get my hands on that are metric and fit on this hose design. I'm not really happy with the fact that I'm supplying hose that has a rubber inner liner....but I'm supplying the highest grade hose I can find. I'd much rather supply PTFE hose, like I do on my oil cooler lines....and eventually I will make custom fittings and be able to do this, but this is the best solution I can come up with, for now.
Thanks for the encouraging thoughts, Roger!
I think we both offer something that the 928 community can use. And no matter which solution people use, either one has to be better than leaky fuel lines...or someone thinking they can stop by Auto Zone and pick up some fuel hose and clamps to fix their leaky existing pieces!
Last edited by GregBBRD; 01-12-2012 at 12:11 AM.
01-12-2012, 12:20 AM
#130
01-12-2012, 01:13 AM
#131
Burning Brakes
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Thanks again Roger... I refused to let the new owner drive the car until we (I) installed the new fuel lines. What happened here is what drove me to do it...
as a side note, did the entire car go up or can you salvage most of her for reuse on another? Great time to start that engine build in your garage anyhow had some very nice rims and tires... Just think how far up you are on your next 928 purchase
01-12-2012, 02:02 AM
#132
Three Wheelin'
For Rob and Greg Brown
On the below pictures, circled in red, since the factory fitting to the fuel cooler is static and the new line touching it is not static from engine side to side rocking,
Could there be a potential damage to the after market fuel line from friction?
I think that's a problem and you need to check it. To me it looks like they are touching.
Just an observation.
I like the lines.
On the below pictures, circled in red, since the factory fitting to the fuel cooler is static and the new line touching it is not static from engine side to side rocking,
Could there be a potential damage to the after market fuel line from friction?
I think that's a problem and you need to check it. To me it looks like they are touching.
Just an observation.
I like the lines.
01-12-2012, 02:23 AM
#133
Archive Gatekeeper
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Ali-
Good eyes, I definitely need to check that. Funny, 'cause I think I took all those pics of the back of the motor at the same time, and the pic taken from the driver's side looks like the U hose is nowhere near the hardline fitting on the cooler. But I will definitely pull the airbox and double check.
There is a surprising amount of space atop the bellhousing, mine is now full of scavenge hoses from the driver's side valve covers.
Good eyes, I definitely need to check that. Funny, 'cause I think I took all those pics of the back of the motor at the same time, and the pic taken from the driver's side looks like the U hose is nowhere near the hardline fitting on the cooler. But I will definitely pull the airbox and double check.
There is a surprising amount of space atop the bellhousing, mine is now full of scavenge hoses from the driver's side valve covers.
01-12-2012, 03:32 AM
#134
Three Wheelin'
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Rob,
Do you ever just go out to the garage, pop the hood and stare at that motor with a crazy grin on your face?
I would... Constantly...
You're a lucky man.
Do you ever just go out to the garage, pop the hood and stare at that motor with a crazy grin on your face?
I would... Constantly...
You're a lucky man.
01-12-2012, 03:51 AM
#135
Rennlist Member
Not gonna lie—I’m not digg’n the curvature of the "U" replacement hose. Excuse the paint marks—I put them on everything so I know: a) I tightened it, b) if it’s moved and c) to keep clamps from vibrating loose.
Last edited by NoVector; 09-09-2018 at 12:48 AM.