Every time.

 

WEll I did preface what I said, that there hadn't been any track running time. The only point I was making was actually what I said nothing more and I was only responding to Iceman in the first instance.

 

Again - the amount of oil that ends up in an intake manifold on a 928 engine when you drive it in an "aggressive, high rpm" manner (even on the street) is ridiculous.

I have a short video of me pouring the oil out of the side intake pieces on the 86.5. The story is that I cleaned them completely when I changed spark plugs. There was no oil in them. I drove 16 miles to work the way I always do - like an ***. And then I drove home, like an ***, and took them off. There was WAY too much oil in there for that little driving.

Imagine what that much oil is doing when ingested into the combustion chamber. These are not marine diesels. They cannot run on motor oil.

 

Nine words: Dutch Stallion Team; quod erat demonstrandum, five years ago.

 

I meant to address this earlier but forgot.
Dissolved air in pressurized oil will work to dig between/under gaskets as the oil is released to ambient conditions and the evolving air expands. And, just as with RTV silicone gasket maker, if the sealing surface is not scrupiously clean of oil when the gasket is installed then a leak is built in and the process is that much further along.

 

Greg, you know joe Fan's 928 had no oiling sytem and was even run for the 4 hour enduro at willow springs when i went there with my old 84 car many years ago. No isssues. I ran a road america for the weekend. no issues.
again, I dont know about running the car's engine for more than 17 seconds (the main, and back straights at road america), but for racing on road courses, there doesnt seem to be an oiling problem. i run thunderhill which also has a very long back straight system. in fact, i dont think the oil knows if you are WOT or not. when we come off turn 5, and run to turn 10, thats about 45sec-of near 5500rpm to 6500rpm constant RPM with little braking (only one very short high g section).

So, ill report back for the Fan 928. no problems!

 

you tell me what you want me to do on the street and Ill do it and video it. i have mountain roads , that have some of the best turns vs any section of roads in america. highways where I can run up to 6500rpm in 3 gears, and race tracks that have high speed, high gs, and sustained gs.

its not just my car, its my CARS! scot car, my old race 928s, and multiple engines all with absolutey no issues of oil burning or excess oil in the intake that was not tollerable.

If it was a big deal for you, you would see it on the plugs, or at least out the tail pipe.


everytime I race, i have no worries. I dont pocess a rabbits foot, nor do I pray to false idols. It works for a reaseon. you might want to do what I do and you will more than likely have the same luck!! (as I did following others like joe Fan and Anerson who were and are faster than anyone here now !

 

I do see it on the plugs. It's called detonation. If you are nice on cars- that's fine. Some of us are not and treat our tools harder. Not saying what I do is right or wrong compared to your driving. I have no idea about the track- I have not been on one enough with the 928. I do know that every 928- including an 89 with 38,000 miles that I bough so long ago- burn oil like tug boat diesels. And they do it by drawing it in through the intake. How does it get into the intake? There are several reasons and you guys can debate that. But its usually because the crankcase is connected to the intake.

I don't want you to drive like I do with todd's engine- it's not mine, and nor is it yours- just treat it well and race.

Lastly- I think people need to read what Greg is saying- 60 seconds - who puts thier foot down that long? Who has? Raise your hands. Most cars on the road today would blow something up if they are not perfectly new- and the 928 is surely no exception.

Not running though the gears- get up to 4th and then 5th and KEEP IT PLANTED. The 928 motor is drinking oil at that point.

 

I dont think you can beat up an engine anymore than I do. to that point, its just WOT, unless im threshold braking. the only thing im not doing, is sustaining WOT, with high rpm above 5500rpm, with no drops below it.
Now, on the street, its so hard to run a 928 hard. ive tried, you just run out of room, you never pull the gs, and its just so much more mellow , no matter how hard you try. I remember tring to see if some wheels fit and they did, but as soon as i hit the track, at the first turn the rubbing was so bad it force me to come in and bang out some fenders.

what do you do when you are driving that is hard on a 928 engine? if you are burning that much oil, i wonder what is going on. maybe you have a blow by issue with your rings. I have all my breather stuff coonected. all stock, and prop'ed up a little to get more "loop" room, but nothing modified. you see my rear view cam. no smoke! i dont burn more than 1 quart a weekend racing.
So, if there is a problem, quite a few engines over the past decade have not seen any issues.
also, I do have quite a few miles on the street engines before I turned it into a race car power. 150,000 at the start of its racin life, 175,000 before it was retired to go up in displacement. so, im just curious what is really going on here.

 

I have owned 8 928s Mark. 78, 80, 81, 82, 85 (ROW), 86, 86.5, an 89, and "borrowed" a 91 for the beginning of this year. Actually thats 9.

 

Mark! If you're not doing sustained high RPM runs then you're not beating your engine.

This is part of an old discussion on driving style and track characteristics affecting bearing failure and oil ejection. It's precisely high RPMs that are tied to both of those.

BTW - my home track, BIR, features a 1-mile front straight. Yeah. 1 full mile and then into a banked turn. 3rd to shift, 4th to shift, then 5th and into the corner at 140 to 150. Try that a few hundred times and we'll see how your engine holds together.

 

First, pardon the stupid question from the newb. (Called a worm on a drilling rig, BTW).

Rather than getting the oil outa the top of the engine, wouldn't it be better to make sure copious amounts don't get there in the first place? Coming from a hot rod background as far as cars are concerned, its common practice to restrict the amount of oil going to the upper parts of some engines. Joe Mondello pioneered restricting the oil flow to the upper parts of Oldsmobile motors and now that's a common mod made to higher perf Olds V8s. I think Joe did some Porsche work back in the day also. Joe used brass plugs inserted into oil galleys with small holes drilled in the plug to reduce the amount of oil going to the cam, lifters and pushrods. This mod was done to other engines too. The main benefit was that it increased oil flow to the mains.

So is there some reason why some type of oil restrictors couldn't be used to slow down the oil going to the cams etc. and just cure the problem in the first place? I'm sure someone has thought of that and there's a good reason why, but haven't come across it in any posts.

The good reason why might be that some experimentation might be needed to determine the optimal restrictor, and that experimentation usually means blown engines and $$$$$.

 

Mark:

You are hardly qualified to report back for the Fan 928...since you obviously have no idea what that car has been through. That car has always had an Accusump to "add" extra oil into the system, when it runs out of oil at the pick-up.

The engine has breathers for the breathers and catch cans for the catch cans to "control" the oil that pukes out of the heads.

Originally, the breathers were "hooked" up to the intake system, but the thing "fogged" out so many events that they were removed and now are vented only to atmosphere.

The car actually runs very few events and has very few hours on the engine....as Joseph has other things "on his plate".

Sorry, but Joseph's car is hardly the "poster child" for an example of a great working wet sumped engine.....

 

This thread reads really strange, with really strange input from a couple of people. I'm not sure, exactly, what their point is.

I think Mark Kibort is saying that if you run old worn out race tires, that other racers have thrown away, because they have lost their "stick" and you drive very smoothly, and you don't rev the engine very far, and you run Amsoil, everything will be fine. While Mark may be "god's gift" to race driving...most people are not....and they tend to "need" good tires and they tend to "push" their cars hard to make up for their "lack of ability" in other parts of the race course. I know that I do.

I'm not sure what Kevin Johnson's point is....he's way too smart/deep for me to understand.

Here's the facts:

I tested an engine at high rpm for an "extended period" of time. The drains in the heads became overwhelmed and the cylinder heads "packed" full of oil. We ran the engine until the oil pressure significantly dropped, from lack of oil at the pick-up. Oil was ejected from the breathers on the engine virtually at the same instant the oil pressure dropped.

One can say whatever they please....but this is not my imagination at work....this happened. It's on video! There was no trick photography....I didn't want this to happen....it cost me two solid months of work to figure out how to fix this 928 "syndrome". I didn't get paid for this development work...I did it all on my own. Two months of trial and error to perfect a method to control the oil....no income from that time!

Yep, I'm pretty sure I didn't "want" to do this.

Except for a very few "isolated" examples, the 928 engine has a very consistant history on the race track....they consistantly explode. It is also very common for these engines to blow-up when run at high rpm's for extended periods of time (Autobaun). That's not imaginary....it has been happening for years...and continues to happen.

I don't really care what approach people use to make these engines run at high rpm's. I don't really care if their engines spew parts all over the planet....as long as my engines don't do this.

Let me simplify:

Mark can do it his way.

Kevin can do it his way.

I (and my customers) are going to do it my way.

That seems pretty simple.

 

I am happy to explain my input and point. I do not think I would have had a problem whatsoever with your developing a new oil control product for the 928 engine. I read about new oil control products all the time. My competitors develop new products all the time. I research past oil control products all the time. A useful set of patents from Mitsubishi just transferred to public domain. This past week I posted pictures of the crank scraper in the Oldsmobile Toronado pan, circa 1966. I am looking at the pumping patterns in a relatively modern Toyota V6.

What I do have a problem with is your making claims about finally solving the problem that no-one else understood or solved. You have a different approach and that is great. Where you do damage is by ignoring the previous decades of work and research – not just two months of your time – by Porsche and innumerable others, including myself. I admit it is not easy to track some of this information down or to accurately read between the lines and discern what is not being said along with what is; some of it is easy to track down, though.

You pride yourself on being a 928 expert. You certainly, unquestionably are. However, that expertise clearly does not extend to historical understanding of all the technology used or the context of your data. The clearest proof of this is simply looking through “Project 928” which helps one to see what Porsche knew and when they knew it about the engines in question.

You talk about running long dyno tests and seeing oil pressures drop at high rpms. Were your tests thousands of hours long? No. Were they hundreds of hours long? No. Were they even one hour long? There are many published papers that address what you saw but you make absolutely no attempt to relate your data to them. The Mercedes SAE paper from thirty-six years ago dissects it in detail. Later research added more keys to the puzzle and help to bridge the disconnect from what was expected to what was experienced out on the street and track: data trumps theory.

Data trumps theory. If you toss about lines like that then expect to be taken seriously and critiqued seriously.