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New oil control solution for Race/ORR/SC/Stroker/GTS/GT/CS/SE/S4/S3 928 Engines

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Old 05-15-2011 | 08:49 PM
  #286  
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If you look at the engineering of the tensioner it is designed to minimize chordal action. A tradeoff is that the loading of the tooth is not parallel to a tangent of the pitch circle. This makes the tooth more vulnerable to shock loading which could occur in an aerated hydraulic valve train with a non-aerated design spec.
Old 05-15-2011 | 09:18 PM
  #287  
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pretty funny. i found 2 teeth the first time stuck to the magnet on the drain plug., one on each side. then a couple of more then 1 more, but found 2more missing that didnt show up on the oil drain plug magnet. 7 years later, we took the engine out and the parts were still floating around (found both missing teeth in the block). all teeth accounted for!
I only changed the cam when I found two adjacent teeth missing on a cam. turns out, two cams had 2 teeth missing next to each other, but all cams had at least one tooth missing.

Originally Posted by andy-gts
ARe you just lucky or do the metal pieces just fall down into area and just sit there?

You should just name your racing endeavors by your guardian angels name and be done with it....


andy
Old 05-16-2011 | 01:11 AM
  #288  
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holy sheeit!!! I guess those pieces floating around didn't hurt too much then , huh?

I would have guessed they would have caused more trouble but guess not.
Old 05-16-2011 | 09:53 AM
  #289  
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Originally Posted by Hacker-Pschorr
There is one part of this setup (and the stock system) I'm still wondering about. Most (maybe all) modern engines have a provision for allowing fresh air to enter the crankcase somewhere. This flow of fresh air helps flush the vapors out of the crankcase, reduce crankcase pressure, and other benefits.
This is where PCV valves come into the picture on most vehicles. I’m not familiar enough with the 32V engines to know how this applies.


IMO the discussions about oil pooling in the heads, oil starvation to the bearings, windage from the crank etc....... are all secondary. Bottom line is there are benefits from a proper air / oil separator and additional crank case vacuum regardless of these issues.
Originally Posted by Alan
Switching the crankcase breathing to be wholely out of the main block vent (or extra crank vents) seems like it at least ensures that whatever blow-by that occurs is neutral to the oil drain back flow. Seems this can only help with oil drainback.
Sorry, for bringing this back from few pages ago, but I feel like these suggestions are pretty important while they didn't get enough feedback.

I'm pretty sure that someone had already suggested this (maybe even tested to some extent?), but here it goes anyways:
If you introduce fresh air to the cam covers via one-way valves, then vent the block through central outlet (modded oil filler) into some separator (pro-vent?) - it should:
a) Help counter the problem with oil drainback having to fight blowby gases - now fresh air will actually "help" oil drain back.
b) Introduce fresh air into crankcase, reduce crankcase pressure?
c) Remove oil ingestion into intake.

While this is pure speculation and "sofa engineering" - if this works like I imagine, it should be enough for stock engines used for some spirited driving on the street - or at least make them less likely to blow up.

Comments?

PS. One of the possible problems might be that engine will not pull enough crankcase vacuum "naturally" when needed, so the "fresh air" part will not work then.

Last edited by 9x8; 05-16-2011 at 02:01 PM. Reason: Removed the reply to Kevin, a bit of misunderstanding there.
Old 05-16-2011 | 10:21 AM
  #290  
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Originally Posted by 9x8
If you introduce fresh air to the cam covers via one-way valves, then vent the block through central outlet (modded oil filler) into some separator (pro-vent?)
Using stock air pump, just divert it to heads? I think fresh air alone without any help to push it in will not help much as crankcase is pressurised.
Old 05-16-2011 | 10:34 AM
  #291  
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Hi Alex,

Originally Posted by 9x8
Sorry, for bringing this back from few pages ago, but I feel like these suggestions are pretty important while they didn't get enough feedback.

I'm pretty sure that someone had already suggested this (maybe even tested to some extent?), but here it goes anyways:
If you introduce fresh air to the cam covers via one-way valves, then vent the block through central outlet (modded oil filler) into some separator (pro-vent?) - it should:
a) Help counter the problem with oil drainback having to fight blowby gases - now fresh air will actually "help" oil drain back.
b) Introduce fresh air into crankcase, reduce crankcase pressure?
c) Remove oil ingestion into intake.

While this is pure speculation and "sofa engineering" - if this works like I imagine, it should be enough for stock engines used for some spirited driving on the street - or at least make them less likely to blow up.

Comments?
Yes, I suggested using a pump to do this probably five years ago. It was up on my site for a long time. It is a common technique.


Originally Posted by 9x8
PPS. Kevin, I don't really understand what I said wrong to deserve such a sarcastic reply, but really that's not the best attitude to demonstrate when you are not only a "random forum guy", but rather trying to market the product of your own.
Alex, my comment was actually meant as a compliment to you.

I suggest that I am not just a random forum guy. I solved the 2/6 issue five-to-six years ago for wetsumps up to a very high level of performance. I was asked by members of this forum to address the issue at that time. My, how time passes and memory fades. That is also partially my fault, however. I got really ticked off one day after I was told to please stay away because my remarks on comparative engineering with non-Porsche-928 items were not appreciated so I went through and deleted over 300 posts lest they taint other impressionable minds.

If people want to buy the product, they will. I think it is abundantly clear that I generally speak my mind and numerous times have acknowledged general character flaws.

Last edited by Kevin Johnson; 05-16-2011 at 10:40 AM. Reason: verb tense
Old 05-16-2011 | 10:44 AM
  #292  
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Originally Posted by Vilhuer
Using stock air pump, just divert it to heads? I think fresh air alone without any help to push it in will not help much as crankcase is pressurised.
That's an interesting idea.
By the way, if you don't mind me asking: are there any conditions (aside of idle) when crankcase could have pressure lower than atmospheric?
Rephrasing, when engine can pull crankcase vacuum?

I'm just learning how engine ventilation works, and would really like to clarify some nuances.
Old 05-16-2011 | 10:48 AM
  #293  
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Originally Posted by 9x8
That's an interesting idea.
By the way, if you don't mind me asking: are there any conditions (aside of idle) when crankcase could have pressure lower than atmospheric?
Rephrasing, when engine can pull crankcase vacuum?

I'm just learning how engine ventilation works, and would really like to clarify some nuances.
Louie has a really good piece posted on his site.

http://www.performance928.com/cgi-bi...ss_parent=1128
Old 05-16-2011 | 10:50 AM
  #294  
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Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson
Alex, my comment was actually meant as a compliment to you.

I suggest that I am not just a random forum guy. I solved the 2/6 issue five-to-six years ago for wetsumps up to a very high level of performance. I was asked by members of this forum to address the issue at that time. My, how time passes and memory fades. That is also partially my fault, however. I got really ticked off one day after I was told to please stay away because my remarks on comparative engineering with non-Porsche-928 items were not appreciated so I went through and deleted over 300 posts lest they taint other impressionable minds.

If people want to buy the product, they will. I think it is abundantly clear that I generally speak my mind and numerous times have acknowledged general character flaws.
Ouch, now I feel myself quite silly.
Sorry about that, - sometimes it's hard to understand the original meaning when you don't speak the language daily. Please apologize me for jumping on you, I indeed got that sentence wrong.

On the "topic" note: please continue enlightening us about all the issues with these engines, it's really interesting to learn all this stuff, especially when a few knowledgeable guys start discussing something spiritually.
Old 05-16-2011 | 10:54 AM
  #295  
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Originally Posted by 9x8
Ouch, now I feel myself quite silly.
Sorry about that, - sometimes it's hard to understand the original meaning when you don't speak the language daily. Please apologize me for jumping on you, I indeed got that sentence wrong.
I met some of the most brilliant minds in the world in Moscow. One was later assasinated for it. Very sad.
Old 05-16-2011 | 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Kevin Johnson
I met some of the most brilliant minds in the world in Moscow. One was later assasinated for it. Very sad.
Guess that happened in nineties, wasn't really the best time back then.
Old 05-16-2011 | 06:57 PM
  #297  
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Originally Posted by 9x8
I'm pretty sure that someone had already suggested this (maybe even tested to some extent?), but here it goes anyways:
If you introduce fresh air to the cam covers via one-way valves, then vent the block through central outlet (modded oil filler) into some separator (pro-vent?) - it should:
a) Help counter the problem with oil drainback having to fight blowby gases - now fresh air will actually "help" oil drain back.
b) Introduce fresh air into crankcase, reduce crankcase pressure?
c) Remove oil ingestion into intake.

...

PS. One of the possible problems might be that engine will not pull enough crankcase vacuum "naturally" when needed, so the "fresh air" part will not work then.
I was at least one who did this. I have all 4 cam ports vented one way (in only) from the airbox bottom. All breathing is now out the crank filler port via a 1" provent line. Provent output is plumbed back to the stock throttle body feed - but unidirectional (vac only - non-reversible). There is also a T to a second check valve to blow off the provent output whenever there is more total blowby than the intake can handle.

This does provide part time fresh air flushing of the crankcase & heads - however absent a RPM related pump the only thing sucking on the Provent output port is the intake vacuum...

At close to WOT there isn't at much intake vacuum so at the time of max blowby there will be no fresh air flow down the drains. However simply eliminating the contra-flow up to the head breather port is still a big plus.

So

a) Is true but due mainly to swapping the venting location - not fresh air
b) Fresh air flushing is good, but bigger venting is what reduces pressure
c) I seperate the oil through baffles, a scrubber stack & Provent to keep it out of the intake (assumes creating fresh air flow via intake suction vs an atmospheric/exhaust vented pump set up).

Alan
Old 05-16-2011 | 08:01 PM
  #298  
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Originally Posted by mark kibort
yep, it sounds fantastic! all i need is that connector. anyone got a toast diagnostic connector or cable (prefered) laying around?

thanks

Mk
I may. I'm not sure what the exact connector is that you are looking for, but I may have it from my burned harness. The interior portion of the harness was unharmed so it seems likely that I have one somewhere.
Old 05-16-2011 | 08:32 PM
  #299  
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Mark needs the '87 12 pin diagnostic connector and enough of the wiring to splice to his cut harness. Here's the pinout (from the WSM diagrams) to aid in identification. (NOTE: I haven't reality tested these, so they may not represent reality...) :

Code:
1	0.75 SW
2	1.0 BR (Ground), 0.75 BR (ground)
3	0.75 BL/GE
4	0.75 GN
5	0.75 RT
6	empty
7	empty
10	0.75 BR and 0.75 WS
9	0.75 WS
8	empty
11	0.75 SW and 0.75 BR/WS
12	0.75 WS and 0.75 WS
	
	
BL	Blue
BR 	Brown
GE 	Yellow
GN	Green
GR	Grey
LI 	Violet
RT	Red
SW 	Black
WS	White

For the hell of it, here's what I get for the 89+ 19 pin connector as well- looks like the configuration is unique in 1989 and then is consistent from 90-94.


Code:
1988+ WIRE COLOR CONVENTIONS	
BK	Black
BL	Blue
BR	Brown
GN 	Green
GR	Grey
RE	Red
VI	Violet (?)
WT	White
YE	Yellow
RE/WT	Red w. White stripes
Code:
1989	
	
Pin # 	WIRE
5	0.5 GN/VI
19	0.5 YE/VI
3	0.5 BK/YE
	
15	0.5 YE
14	0.5 GN/BK
13	0.5 BK
12	1.0 RE
	
10	1.0 BR (ground)
	
8	1.0 GN
7	1.0 WT
Code:
1990-1995	
	
Pin # 	WIRE
5	0.5 GN/VI
19	0.5 YE/VI
3	0.5 BK/YE
	
15	0.5 YE
14	0.5 GN/BK
13	0.5 BK
12	1.0 RE
	
10	1.0 BR (ground)
	
8	0.5 BL x 2
7	0.5 GN x 2
	
1	0.5 GN/YE
Old 05-16-2011 | 09:01 PM
  #300  
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Mark:

I can help wire in a Sharktuner. I know how to hook it up even if your diagnostic connector is MIA.


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